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 oCtAnE
    
Location: TORONTO, CANADA
Gender: Male
EXPLORER AT LARGE
 |  |  | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 80 on 12/1/2004 8:40 PM >
|  | | | Posted by el nerdo
Funny, there's a hospital in Windsor that begs to differ.
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I'll say this again: WE CAN'T PREDICT THESE THINGS. It was a somewhat isolated incident. Over 1600 sites, and only a small handful get vandalized. I know that even that small number is unacceptable, but it happens. All vandals do is VANDALIZE. They don't give a shit what the place is, they just trash it.
This is NOT due to the LDB. If every high-profile location in the LDB became vandalized, then yes, we could say that the LDB is directly responsible. But as of right now, IT'S NOT.
If you don't want to see locations vandalized by punks, go pitch a tent in front of the damn location, bring a flashlight and a baseball bat, and do your worst. Otherwise, stop crowing at what you can't control nor predict.
Nobody has ESP.
-Octane
FUELED BY OCTANE. |
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Jester
 
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 81 on 12/1/2004 8:50 PM >
|  | | | Posted by Octane
Otherwise, stop crowing at what you can't control nor predict.
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But there is a step that can be taken to protect them. The changes to the LDB. No it doesn't stop the vandal that stumbles upon a place, but it stops the dumbasses that have used this site to find places to vandalize or burn down. Just because something doesn't obliterate the problem doesn't mean you don't take what steps you can to combat it.
There is no legitimate reason why all sorts of identifying info needs to be there for every person to see. As i've said, if you have interest in a particular place, it just takes a PM or email to the creator of the location.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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TurboZutek
King Dick
Location: Scotland
Gender: Male
Giant octo-penised rapephant
| |  | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 82 on 12/1/2004 8:57 PM >
| | | | It seems to me that Av has set a plan in his mind and informed us all what it will be. No one as yet has come up with a reason to drastically sway him either way.
I think this thread is pretty much finished... Yeah ?
Chris...
We all had ostriches. My dad had an ostrich farm! I remember one day someone came in and said the high altitude bombing of Kosovo had been a limited success, so we all went out and celebrated… by killing an ostrich and boiling it in kiwi fruit. |
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NoSuchPerson
 
Stop, or I'll ask you again!
| | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 83 on 12/1/2004 9:04 PM >
| | | | Posted by Avatar-X
Exkalibur: I'm not worried about legal ramifications. I am NOT going to push a single set of ethics upon everyone.
PLEASE stop talking about ethics now, this is not an ethics discussion.
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Jesus Christ Av, did you read what I posted?
The whole topic of wanting to reform the LDB is specifically so that morons don't go and vandalize the place. So wouldn't common sense tell you that if you got rid of the vandals, you could at least help solve the problem?
I'm not saying that if someone has different ethics than you, we should boot them. What I am saying is that they should be banned for admitting to vandalism. They are free to talk about it, but as soon as someone admits to doing it...well...seeya.
Vandalism is a criminal act. Trespassing is not. By allowing people to stay on here even after they've been singled out as a vandal is pretty much the same as condoning their actions. If someone IS a vandal, theif, or whatever, that's fine, just don't discuss it on the board.
I still don't think you see my point...it's got NOTHING to do with ethics. But, I'll go talk to my wall now, maybe it'll understand what I mean.
-Ex
Unit calling radio say again? |
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Caveman6666
Location: NY
| |  | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 84 on 12/1/2004 9:09 PM >
| | | | Posted by IIVQ
And as has been said: for me the exploring part is in the exploring of the building. I am willing to explore for an entrance, but not to drive around for 4 hours to find a site. I'd rather spend that time in visiting the site itself.
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Not to be a dick, but...
Wouldn't we all. Depends how bad you want it. I've driven all day to check something out and not gotten in. Another place, been scoping out for nearly two decades, watching and waiting. Want a handout; try the soup kitchen.
Yet another unoriginal generic UE website. GODDAM! |
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el nerdo
  
Chief UER Lackey
Gender: Male
What are you, from the Department of Know'm Sayin's? You takin' a Know'm census?
| | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 85 on 12/1/2004 9:13 PM >
| | | | Posted by Octane
I'll say this again: WE CAN'T PREDICT THESE THINGS. It was a somewhat isolated incident. Over 1600 sites, and only a small handful get vandalized. I know that even that small number is unacceptable, but it happens. All vandals do is VANDALIZE. They don't give a shit what the place is, they just trash it.
This is NOT due to the LDB. If every high-profile location in the LDB became vandalized, then yes, we could say that the LDB is directly responsible. But as of right now, IT'S NOT.
If you don't want to see locations vandalized by punks, go pitch a tent in front of the damn location, bring a flashlight and a baseball bat, and do your worst. Otherwise, stop crowing at what you can't control nor predict.
Nobody has ESP.
-Octane
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You quote me and then use that quote out of context. You then contradict yourself 100%.
My rebuttal was to the hard and fast statement that "{y}ou don't lose anything by giving out it's location"
Obviously, *some* sites have lost something. You say as much above.
And no, it's not acceptable.
The fact that Av is so adamant about only making a very minor change to the LDB that will do nothing to stop any future abuses speaks volumes: while he has said in the past that this site "doesn't belong to him" and that the site belongs to all of us, his steadfast refusal to even entertain any discussion at all contradicts his claim that we all have a say here.
Clearly, we don't. I've seen some very good ideas in this thread. Some bad ideas. Some ideas somewhere in between. And not one iota of it all has been considered publicly by the powers-that-be.
Some safeguards on the LDB is *not* the end of the world. It shows that we as a group are at least willing to attempt to be self-policing.
Paying lip service to the fact that there are people here that *will* fuck places up because they think it's fun and then refusing to do anything substantial to try and prevent that in the future just shows the "people" looking at us from the outside just how amateurish and unprofessional we as a community are.
We can either sit here and watch the house of cards come down, or we can actually *try* to do something.
Restricting information in the LDB is a great first step to regaining some of the lost credibility urban exploring has received.
This wasn't hard to predict: as the popularity of urban exploring increased over the past couple of years, we were bound to attract some people who we could have done without.
It's where we take it from here.
The hobby isn't what it was a few years ago; sites like this are proof of that.
We can't sit around with our heads in the sand pretending it's still status quo around here. We need to do something, and it needs to happen soon.
Av: As you can see here, the consensus amongst the majority of people who have participated in this thread all agree your changes aren't enough. Are you going to listen to "the community" or not? That's really the bottom line.
[last edit 12/1/2004 9:15 PM by el nerdo - edited 1 times]
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 86 on 12/1/2004 9:14 PM >
| | | | I spent an entire weekend driving to look for a place that turned out to not even exist. From Vancouver to Revelstoke and around in many circles, up logging roads and all over the bloody place, to find the place was a hoax. But that's part of exploring, that's one of the things that sets explorers apart. We will wander off not knowing if something is really there, but needing to know if it is...
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Avatar-X
Alpha Husky
Location: West Coast
Gender: Male
yay!
| | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 87 on 12/1/2004 9:26 PM >
| | | | Posted by el nerdo
Av: As you can see here, the consensus amongst the majority of people who have participated in this thread all agree your changes aren't enough. Are you going to listen to "the community" or not? That's really the bottom line.
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The LDB is already as restricted as it can be without singling out users. There's no way to single out users without some kind of bizarre and mostly ineffective method of identifying the "bad" users from the "good" users.
As I say (for the third time now) the problem is not who has access to the information, but rather that there is too much information.
The photos of the hospital in windsor would have been just as cool even if the full name and address wasn't available online. We still can't be sure that UER had anything to do with the vandalism, but not having all that detailed information would probably have helped.
Everyone keeps saying I've made only "small" changes. That's not true. The introduction of the separate "Name" field is just the first step towards securing the LDB. All LDB Loc Owners should now go and edit out sensitive information if they feel it's needed, and they now have a new tool on-hand (real name) for keeping the original name somewhere.
huskies - such fluff. |
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micro
Gender: Male
Slowly I turned
| | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 88 on 12/1/2004 9:40 PM >
| | | | Also, for everyone's reference:
Posted by MikeBeauchamp
When I first explored Grace Hospital like 2 months ago, there was already a lot of vandalism. With the pictures that I took and posted on my site, i tried not to show much of it because I prefer the untouched places obviously.
In the Operating Rooms, all glass was smashed... doors were completely kicked in, Windows on doors were broken to gain access to rooms. Practically all of the fire extinguishers were set off and thrown around. It was a real shame indeed...
You gotta realize though that the urban explorers are such a small percentage and greatly outnumbered by the people that just want to bust into something and wreck it. Grace Hospital was covered in gang spraypainting (which is funny, cause I didn't think windsor actually had "skins"). There were homeless sleeping outside in the courtyard, etc.
Reading this article definitely sucks.. and it sucks that the hospital was vandalized, but its' been vandalized for months and months now.
This just means that UE isn't just about exploring places, it's about FINDING the places before other people do. That includes before other Exporers find it, and before it hits the internet.. and most importantly, before teenagers, vandals, gangs and homeless do as well.
Mike
http://mikebeauchamp.com
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Now can we please all just get a grip?
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 89 on 12/1/2004 9:44 PM >
| | | | It was probably random vandals that wrote www.uer.ca at the hospital, just a random assortment of letters, just a coincidence, they clearly could never have been to the site... 
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Crossfire
Location: Kay-Dub
Gender: Male
Don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years.
| |  | | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 90 on 12/1/2004 9:45 PM >
| | | | Posted by Jester
It was probably random vandals that wrote www.uer.ca at the hospital, just a random assortment of letters, just a coincidence, they clearly could never have been to the site...
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It could have been a thousand monkeys with a thousand magic markers, and one of them stumbled across that collection of letters. Amazing.
C.
Disgruntled. |
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micro
Gender: Male
Slowly I turned
| | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 91 on 12/1/2004 9:46 PM >
| | | | Right, and *that's* why the place got locked up.
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TurboZutek
King Dick
Location: Scotland
Gender: Male
Giant octo-penised rapephant
| | | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 92 on 12/1/2004 9:48 PM >
| | | | Posted by Jester
It was probably random vandals that wrote www.uer.ca at the hospital, just a random assortment of letters, just a coincidence, they clearly could never have been to the site...
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Well it could have been - and statistically it's just as significant if it was because without any actual evidence the two are linked...
It's essentially meaningless.
Chris...
We all had ostriches. My dad had an ostrich farm! I remember one day someone came in and said the high altitude bombing of Kosovo had been a limited success, so we all went out and celebrated… by killing an ostrich and boiling it in kiwi fruit. |
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micro
Gender: Male
Slowly I turned
| | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 93 on 12/1/2004 9:55 PM >
| | | | Also, I'm guessing I probably won't hear anyone complaining if some vandal goes ahead and opens this place up again for us by breaking a window or busting down a door. You know, all that stuff that we'd never do because of our so-called ethics.
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 94 on 12/1/2004 10:03 PM >
| | | | I've made a point of bringing that up in the past Micro, because essentially we are parasitic in how we take advantage of what vandals do when it does happen. That said though, I go more than enough places that are not vandalized and can still find my way in, so i'm not dependant upon such things happening. It is possible to not condone something but end up at the conclusion that this is how it is now, so there is no new harm by using it to your benefit.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Crossfire
Location: Kay-Dub
Gender: Male
Don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years.
| | | | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 95 on 12/1/2004 10:07 PM >
| | | | For fuck sakes... it's not about this particular location. It was simply used as an example.
God, some of you guys are so narrow-minded. Can you not see the big picture? It's not about any one location, it's about taking responsibility for what is going on around here - as a whole. By allowing John Q. Public to browse through a collection of abandoned locations in his city, it could increase the chance of any of these places being destroyed prematurely.
Obviously, the LDB isn't the sole reason behind all the problems with arson and vandalism, but when there is proof that it may have contributed to even the slightest bit, should we think about what it could do in the future?
Some of you can't see the forest for the trees. Take a step back, take off the blinders, and try to look ahead. Are the risks of having an open database of abandoned locations, their addresses, and some times photos of evident points of entry, worth it? Are we contributing to the hurried destruction and/or sealing of these locations? Is it safer to assume that we are, or safer to assume that we're not?
C.
Disgruntled. |
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Servo
| | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 96 on 12/1/2004 10:27 PM >
| | | | The argument thus far:
1. There's too much information. We should restrict it somehow.
2. BUT INFORMATION WANTS TO BE FREE!!!
3. Repeat.
I'm being blunt and cutting through the crap -- this hobby cannot sustain without at least some elitism and secrecy, and the people I see bitching the most strongly, not necessarily here and not necessarily all, but for the most part, are those who have never contributed anything and probably don't UE anything more strenuous than their own basement.
Whether the elitism comes in the form of restricting the flow of information, or simply not sharing information at all, that's what's gonna have to happen. Not because of this one incident; just on general principle. The exponential growth we're experiencing due to the Internet needs to be curbed, and keeping out those who cannot spend the time to find a location themselves or get to know someone on here and ask them for info, I see as a good thing.
Also, guess what -- most of what we do is illegal. People can and do get in trouble. But they get in a lot less trouble if they don't "out" locations. Even if vandals/ravers/whatever aren't using the LDB en masse, the perception by property owners and police is that they are.
Since Av has said that he doesn't intend to implement any kind of trusted/friend system, then we all need to do as he suggests and not publicize sites in the urban tourism type style that we are doing now. When the LDB was originally started, I thought it was to be more of a photo gallery and a place to share locations, but not as a shopping list of places to see. I both disagree and agree with Jester though; just because you go somewhere that someone else has already been doesn't make you a second-class citizen. Hell, in some places like Toronto, everything UE-able more or less has been added to the DB anyway.
I don't understand the whining about removing physical location info or masking the identity of locations. If you really want to see the place, send the location author a message. Maybe you'll even meet someone new that way. There is no shame in that. Or, go try to find it yourself, and maybe find something even cooler along the way.
[last edit 12/1/2004 10:39 PM by Servo - edited 2 times]
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 97 on 12/1/2004 10:28 PM >
| | | | Posted by Servo
Or, go try to find it yourself, and maybe find something even cooler along the way.
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Try to find something yourself ? What are you out of your mind ? !
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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micro
Gender: Male
Slowly I turned
| | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 98 on 12/1/2004 10:41 PM >
| | | | You know, it is possible to go out and find places on your own AND use the DB now and again too. Perhaps that's not as elite, but some of us have other things to do in life besides exploring. Not everything has to be so black or white.
[last edit 12/1/2004 10:42 PM by micro - edited 1 times]
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Servo
| | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 99 on 12/1/2004 10:46 PM >
| | | | Posted by micro
Perhaps that's not as elite, but some of us have other things to do in life besides exploring.
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No. You are confusing "elitism" (being exclusive) with "elite" (in the Internet, Counter-Strike-playing-12-year-old sense). There is a definite and important difference, and I want people to understand that I mean the former sense. I don't wish to prevent more casual explorers from using the site; I simply wish the information to not flow, or appear to the authorities to flow, to those we would prefer not have it. If someone seriously wants to argue with me that vandals and ravers are equally dangerous or morally "bad" as we are, you need to re-think that right now. Sure, both are illegal, but which one results in more damage to places? Which one is more likely to be looked down upon by the authorities? There are levels of illegality and immorality; it's not as simple as just "right" and "wrong".
Anyway, I've said what I wanted to say, you guys can all tear me a new asshole now, but that's my opinion on it.
[last edit 12/1/2004 10:49 PM by Servo - edited 1 times]
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