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UER Store
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 micro
    
Gender: Male
Slowly I turned
 |  | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 20 on 11/30/2004 10:00 PM >
|  | | | Posted by Jester
That makes it sound like it's their right to have all the benefits of other people's works. It's not a right, it's a priveledge, and a priveledge thats being abused.
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I know this is getting off-topic, but I really fail to see how someone using it as a shopping list does anyone any harm. Personally, I couldn't care less how people use it. If others were so concerned about the fruits of their hard labour being spoiled by so-called moochers, then I doubt they'd bother posting locations in the first place. I mean, I'm sure a lot of it's dick-waving too, but I think that for the most part, locations get added by people because they think that others would probably enjoy visiting them. I think that was one of the positive elements that I first saw here on this site; an eagerness to openly share locations without getting all delusional about it. But whatever.. it now just seems very elitist and maybe even a tad bit paranoid too.
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Jester
 
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| |  | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 21 on 11/30/2004 10:04 PM >
|  | | | It's elistist and paranoid to say, "Hey, I spent hour upon hour of research and driving around back roads in the cold wandering through the woods so I could find this place to explore, and now everyone thats too lazy to get off their ass and find something for themselves expects me to draw them a map?"
Fine, i'll be elitist then. People deserve what they work for. I'm happy enough to show people what i've found, but for me to show them where it is i'll have to trust them, and i don't trust all 6000+ members here, sorry.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Kay O. Sweaver
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Gender: Male
Happiness is saying yes more often than no.
| | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 22 on 11/30/2004 10:11 PM >
| | | | For those of you who are unaware UEA started the LDB concept before UER even existed. We've abandonned it for exactly the reasons stated. The Cave Clan has their own LDB but it is only available to trusted members.
A) The LDB can be put to nefarious uses.
 Different contributors have different expectations as to what should and should not be done with the information.
C) The "Lonely Planet" guidebook style of UE it encourages is rather souless.
If any of you doubt that people have and will continue to abuse the information provided in LDBs then you are naive. I can cite instances here in Calgary as well as in Australia where this has occurred. It seems there have been instances here on UER as well. There are probably countless other instances of the information being put to nefarious uses that we aren't even aware of.
You'll notice there are virtually no entries on the UER LDB for Alberta. This is not an oversight. We like to have control over who knows about our locations after these incidents. Some members of our own community don't trust others with certan location information, and for good reason. I don't trust all explorers, that's why I like to meet people in person and get to know them before setting them loose in an abaondonned building or a utility tunnel.
Some of you will invariably decry my attitude that any of these sites are in any way "mine." Perhaps it would be better for me to describe it this way. I went to the trouble/risk to find something, figure out an entry, explore and document it. I don't own the site, but I own the map to that site. If you go out and find it on your own, that's fine, but don't expect me to hand you the map for nothing.
==========================
Amy Smith is an infected slut |
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Ferret
Location: Toronto
| | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 23 on 11/30/2004 10:12 PM >
| | | | Posted by micro
I agree with you entirely. That being said, I think we've all used the DB for a quick and dirty trip now and again, especially if we're in an area we're not familiar with and don't have time to do all the usual legwork. People should be able to use it for what they want with it though. If they want to use it just to look at the pictures then that's fine. If they want to use it as a "shopping list" then that's fine too. Each to their own. Me, I use it for a variety of different things while still taking the time to go out and do all the things you just mentioned.
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I haven't yet either, but if I get over to Scotland for EurOpex, I'll consult the DB for which places to best spend my limited time! I put sites in for a variety of reasons, but I am cautious - I have several places that won't be posted for a while yet. Something everyone that submits to the DB should remember - that once you post it up there, almost anyone can do anything to it. If you want to keep it safe, keep it secret among those you trust.
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micro
Gender: Male
Slowly I turned
| | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 24 on 11/30/2004 10:16 PM >
| | | | Jester, did it ever occur to you that maybe some people out there just don't take this stuff as seriously as you do? They don't go on "missions", dressed in full camo, nor do they have a crew of GI-Joe style "specialists". I'm not slighting the style in which you explore, but I think that some people just enjoy going to abandoned buildings or, uh, whatever. End of story. If it somehow enriches their life, then I really don't see what difference it should make if they found the place on the DB as a result of someone else's "hard work".
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NoSuchPerson
 
Stop, or I'll ask you again!
| | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 25 on 11/30/2004 10:17 PM >
| | | | Unfortunatly there isn't any cut and dry line you can establish as to what should and what shouldn't be posted in an LDB entry.
To say it should be removed altogether I don't think is very constructive - I know that the LDB is something that Av had talked about almost from day 1 of this site, so I doubt it's going anywhere.
Having said that - where do you draw the line? Okay, so we don't put the "real" name of the site, and we don't put the address. What's the point of that? There is nothing stopping me from posting pictures from Location X and saying they are from Location Y. Nobody is going to know. Plus, isn't the idea of the LDB (for the most part) so people can take a look where people have been?
Perhaps you should code a button on the main information page called "PM Creator" or something which would open a window and allow you to send a PM to whoever created the location, should you want further information on where the place is, if you want to actually check it out for yourself.
I had coffee with one of our photo-talented members earlier today, he agrees with me that a lot of sites (Whitby Psych, for example) are absolutely bloated with pictures.
His idea, which I think is one of the best I've heard - restrict a site to maybe a dozen pictures at most. Again, using Whitby as an example - you almost don't need to explore it yourself, only look on here, and you'll be able to see the entire thing. What I would suggest is cutting it down to a dozen pictures per location (give or take), a vague location (Example, instead of saying 1138 Bathurst, say "In the area of Bathurst and Davenport")...half the fun is finding these places!
Also, there needs to be a ZERO tolerance rule for vandalism. If somebody makes a post that leads the moderators to believe they are vandals or theifs, etc... - that person gets banned. No second chances here. Pardon the language, but you can't fuck around in this respect.
I'm a member on another web-board that deals with 2-way radios. The biggest faux-pas with that is the aspect of programming. If you even do so much as mention programming software on those boards, your post gets deleted, and you could face suspension, plus your custom text will always say "1 warning for software" or something like that.
UER is mainstream. Like it or not, believe it or not - it is. Back when I first joined the site, UER was still an infant. It didn't have much of a forum, much of a member base, and the LDB was yet to be coded. These days, a google search for just about any site on here will turn up UER, as will searching for "urban exploration" (searching for that exact term on google shows uer.ca as the third link...)or any other combination of things you can imagine.
Because UER is as "mainstream" as it gets with this hobby, we need to be careful as to what is posted. We need to show the internet public (as well as the countless law enforcement types that come here) that we aren't vandals, theifs, etc... and that we do NOT tolerate them at all. Simply stating in your ethics that you don't condone those things isn't enough. You have to act on it. I've seen a few posts on here (one specific example jumps out) where a member has openly said they've stolen from a site before. Sorry, but you should be banned. If I were the webmaster of this site, I'd be very concerned, because guess what. When the proverbial shit hits the fan, which I suspect is going to happen to somebody on here sooner or later (It's already happened to a few members), it could come back and bite you in the ass.
I'm also not a fan of disucssing the LDB behind closed doors as is going on in the Admin. board. The moderator team was picked for a reason, but last I checked, the moderators weren't voted on, they were appointed. As such, their decisions and actions do not speak for the membership of UER. In keeping with the spirit and previous statements of Av, in that, the board belongs to the membership, this isn't a very proactive way of solving the problem. I think discussions should be out in the open, and mods/administrators should be keeping us up to date. Afterall, it's just as much my ass as it is yours.
That opens up a whole other can of worms. I realize it hasn't happened yet, but I'm waiting for the day when someone posts here that they were arrested/harassed by the Police simply because they were recognized as a member of UER. It's not a question of if, rather a question of when.
Anyway, I've rambled on enough, and I think I've managed to get my point across, but just incase I didn't... UER is a very visible and public website with a large membership and lots of valueable resources. As such, each of us, from the users to the Administrators, must excercise due diligance in making sure we disassociate ourselves from the vandals and whatever else gives us a bad eye to "the man". How do you do this? Simple. Get rid of the problems.
-Ex
Unit calling radio say again? |
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DjMalign
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Gender: Male
Sexy, sexy, sexy
| | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 26 on 11/30/2004 10:19 PM >
|  | | | I don't always use the LDB as a shopping list but at the same time I do find that some sites are really fucking cool and i'd like to see them. I'm not saying give street addresses, but if there is no name AND there is no generalized area except by state its nigh impossible for people travelling to check out sites they've been meaning to check out. Not all of the people on these boards take in other UE-ers either.
When I post my location I want people to experience the same thing I did. For me exploration is an enlightening experience. If your whole point of exploration is revolved around a sense of competition i.e. I walked through giant ice fields for 10 hours to get 1 pic, har har then that's not a community based thing. If the point of the LDB is to share as a community, then lets not be exclusive.
I hate all of you |
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NoSuchPerson
Stop, or I'll ask you again!
| | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 27 on 11/30/2004 10:20 PM >
| | | | By the way...
Exactly why WAS the trusted star removed? It was an excellent idea and should be brought back. I wouldn't have ANY problem telling someone with a trusted star locations, etc... But when I get messages from people without one, I start to wonder.
Here's an idea then. The idea you propose is great for the LDB (hiding names and such)...members that have the trusted star should then be allowed to view the full details, including location.
To those who don't have the trusted star...well...I say - do something to get it!
Hopefully Av didn't delete the indexes of who had the trusted star, rather just deleted the star itself.
-Ex
Unit calling radio say again? |
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IanK1968
Location: Scarborough, Ontario
Gender: Male
| |  | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 28 on 11/30/2004 10:24 PM >
| | | | I am for whatever makes this site work and stay live. I would hate like hell to see uer.ca go. Lately myself, Fedge, and Scarlett drove threw back roads and walked threw dense forest to get a couple new locations, and after working like a dog to find these places I myself agree that lazy people who just use this site as a shopping list should be stopped. If someone wants to visit a location bad enough they should pvt the creator of that location for addresses or locations, and leave it up to there discretion whether or not they want to give out that information. Otherwise they should go drive around or walking threw dense forest after dark when its minus 2 outside to make a find.
Today is tomorrows yesterday |
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Fubster
Location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida
Gender: Male
Though highly intelligent, guide dogs cannot interpret street signs.
| |  | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 29 on 11/30/2004 10:24 PM >
| | | | By the way...
Exactly why WAS the trusted star removed? It was an excellent idea and should be brought back. I wouldn't have ANY problem telling someone with a trusted star locations, etc... But when I get messages from people without one, I start to wonder.
Here's an idea then. The idea you propose is great for the LDB (hiding names and such)...members that have the trusted star should then be allowed to view the full details, including location.
To those who don't have the trusted star...well...I say - do something to get it!
Hopefully Av didn't delete the indexes of who had the trusted star, rather just deleted the star itself.
-Ex |
To expand on that thought, if the trusted star were to be distributed more liberally, we could use it to determine whether someone could view the LDB or not.
[last edit 11/30/2004 10:25 PM by Fubster - edited 1 times]
Sometimes, you need to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don't know what your rights are, or who it is you're talking to. Then, on your way out, slam the door. |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 30 on 11/30/2004 10:30 PM >
| | | | Posted by micro
Jester, did it ever occur to you that maybe some people out there just don't take this stuff as seriously as you do? They don't go on "missions", dressed in full camo, nor do they have a crew of GI-Joe style "specialists". I'm not slighting the style in which you explore, but I think that some people just enjoy going to abandoned buildings or, uh, whatever. End of story. If it somehow enriches their life, then I really don't see what difference it should make if they found the place on the DB as a result of someone else's "hard work".
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What on earth does your rambling about my camo have to do with the fact that I don't want to help people that are too lazy to do the same work I did to find these places? If some people just enjoy going to abandoned buildings or, uh, whatever, then they can do some work and find them and uh, explore then or whatever. If people can't take it seriously enough to put a minor amount of effort into it to find places through their own means, they probably shouldn't be trying to explore.
If I'd posted the Weird house out here so people could find it, which was full of things, including cases of wine, how long do you think it would have remained that way ? Under a week. I'm not about to give info to every single person that can come to this website. I have no reason to, i'm not duty bound to help the stupid ot lazy, and I don't owe it to everyone else that "wants to see it" but doesn't want to put any more effort into it than emailing me.
I don't have any problem sharing info with explorers I trust. But there's no way in hell I think it's right to put info that can lead to the destruction of these sites out there for everyone that can click a mouse.
[last edit 11/30/2004 10:33 PM by Jester - edited 1 times]
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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micro
Gender: Male
Slowly I turned
| | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 31 on 11/30/2004 10:31 PM >
| | | | Just charge people $30 a year for premium access which would include full DB access, among other premium'ish things. It'd also help pay for shit around here too, wouldn't it? And no snot-nosed kid is going to shell out their hard earned allowance just so they can find places to go paint a picture of a dick on a wall.
I also agree with the limiting of pictures in the galleries to a dozen or so. I mentioned that a while ago and it quickly got shot down. I believe "worst idea ever" was one of the responses I received. So much for that.
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Kay O. Sweaver
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Gender: Male
Happiness is saying yes more often than no.
| | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 32 on 11/30/2004 10:54 PM >
| | | | Charging money is the dumbest idea of all.
1) Most of us are poor.
2) Not to be rude to Av or Ex but this site does nothing that an MSN or Yahoo group couldn't do.
3) Most urban explorers I know wouldn't stand for it. They'd just leave.
4) $30 is a parltry price for salvaging copper, other construction materials, finding a location for an illegal rave, etc. Punk ass vandals are not the only trouble makers associated with UE.
The whole proliferation of UE on the Internet, on newspapers and TV along with the LDBs and such have indeed mainstreamed the hobby, and frankly I think that sucks. Now every college misfit and bored welfare bum wants to go out and be an urban explorer but they don't have the drive to do any research or scouting, as a consequence they don't have any true appreciation for what they get to see or experience either. They also put themselves and others at risk.
Go hard or go home.
Think of UE as a dangerous and demanding job or sport. You need the right training, experience, equipment and attitude to get the job done safely. If you don't meet those expectations then you're excluded. Sorry.
I'm elitist. I'm not going to lower the bar any lower than its already gotten. Sorry to all you whimpering blobs who think that democracy and free access to resources is a right. It isn't. You get from life what you put into it, don't let the fucked up nature of western civilization trick you into thinking otherwise just because the consequences of your actions aren't immediately apparent to you. UE to me is about maturity and responsibility, if you don't display these characteristics then you can forget about it.
I'm going to regret writing this later I'm sure, but that's my knee jerk reaction right now.
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Amy Smith is an infected slut |
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oCtAnE
Location: TORONTO, CANADA
Gender: Male
EXPLORER AT LARGE
| | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 33 on 11/30/2004 11:29 PM >
| | | | Alright. It's Octane's turn.
<rant>
First off, before anything rash gets decided, ask yourselves this:
is the LDB really responsible for the vandalism and wrongdoings of certain locations? Is the LDB responsible for angry loners setting fires and spraying/writing graffiti on location walls and such? Is the LDB responsible for punks that do this to places all the time?
The answer to all of the above is no. We can in no way predict what
will happen to a location once it is put up on the LDB. While I agree with the notion of removing the address bar, we shouldn't have fake names for a site, OR any kind of limitations on the galleries.
If we start making too many drastic changes, we let our paranoia about preservation take over, and the punks win. I say screw them. If they want to be immature and destroy things, let them. They'll eventually get caught. I know that comes as little comfort to some of us that hate losing an accessible location, but there will be others, and at least we still have out photos of the places and stories to tell. That is something those punks can never take from us.
</rant>
-Octane
[last edit 12/1/2004 1:32 AM by oCtAnE - edited 1 times]
FUELED BY OCTANE. |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 34 on 12/1/2004 12:23 AM >
| | | | Posted by Octane
If we start making too many drastic changes, we let our paranoia about preservation take over, and the punks win. I say screw them. If they want to be immature and destroy things, let them. They'll eventually get caught.-Octane
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I fail to see how the "punks win" by the ldb being more secure. They win by forcing explorers to actually get off their asses and find places themselves instead of parasitically feeding off the sites other explorers worked to find ?
As for the logic of saying it doesn't matter, let the sites get trashed and wait for them to get caught, well I don't buy that. If there's something I can do to keep a place from harm, i'll do it. I, and a lot of other people actually care about these places remaining as long as they can, and don't simply stop caring about it once we've gotten in once.
It's child's play for anyone that sees a site to message the creator of the place and ask about getting info given to them about it. The info isn't locked down forever you know, it's simply not pushed out with neon lights flashing around for anyone with the internet.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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'Dukes
Noble Donor
Gender: Male
At least someone llikes me
| | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 35 on 12/1/2004 1:20 AM >
| | | | Seems like this has been done before.
The fans of the LDB just want to see what is out there.
It's become it's own forum.
Speaking of forums, perhaps the general forums should be restricted from "searching".My last search for "Saratoga County Homestead" lead straight to the United States Forum.
To me it's fun, you get to see places you'll never go. Comment on the pictures.
Check Scotland.
My interest in this site will fade rapidly if these changes take place.
Restrict the forum is what I would say. All these conversations are visible to the general public.
Make the forums "unsearchable" . Or restrict forum conversations to those that have donated some cash.
I got your tour winner right here pussies, at least he'd crash out trying. |
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el nerdo
  
Chief UER Lackey
Gender: Male
What are you, from the Department of Know'm Sayin's? You takin' a Know'm census?
| | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 36 on 12/1/2004 1:24 AM >
| | | | Posted by K.A.O.S.
Charging money is the dumbest idea of all.
1) Most of us are poor.
2) Not to be rude to Av or Ex but this site does nothing that an MSN or Yahoo group couldn't do.
3) Most urban explorers I know wouldn't stand for it. They'd just leave.
4) $30 is a parltry price for salvaging copper, other construction materials, finding a location for an illegal rave, etc. Punk ass vandals are not the only trouble makers associated with UE.
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Nowhere on this site does it say that you're entitled to anything here. This whole site is a function of Avatar-X's goodwill, and nothing more.
If there were a pay feature, then you're damn right it would stop at least *some* of the fuckers that may be using the LDB for nefarious purposes.
Personally, I think it's a great idea.
If you can't afford a measly 2.50 a month (which is what it would break down to), then you really need to reprioritize why you're here.
Unless you're surfing for free from a public terminal at the library, your internet access and your PC was paid somehow. Even if it was mommy and daddy (no, kaos, I'm not talking to you specifically, just generally) that paid for it. It still gets paid.
Av has provided a great service to people here. And 95% of the people (it's probably more like 98-99%) have never given him one red cent for it.
He pays for all of this out of his own pocket; and it's not like Av's a millionaire... all that money is earned with a lot of hard work.
If he decided to stick banner ads on here, I'd have no problem with it.
If he decided to make a "paid-members-only" section, that contains the LDB, I'd have no problem with it.
You get what you pay for. And if you're paying nothing, you're entitled to nothing.
End of story. If you think otherwise, there's the door.
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TurboZutek
King Dick
Location: Scotland
Gender: Male
Giant octo-penised rapephant
| |  | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 37 on 12/1/2004 1:45 AM >
| | | | Guys...
Maybe I missed a trick - but WHY is this happening ? Some hospital burnt down ? Am I wrong... A hospital burned down over here a while after it was put into the LDB and nobody batted an eyelid (Check out HartWood Hospital in the LDB )...
I'll drag us back to the basics of science:
1. What exactly prompted this?
2. Do we have any evidence (Good or otherwise) that it had ANYTHING to do with the LDB ?
I don't really see a problem with the changes persae, but I'm curious to know why?!
Thanks!
Chris...
PS: Fake names for sites ??? : PISH! If you want a fake name for security, use one - but an automatic manditory fake name removes any historical / scientific relevance the LDB might have.
[last edit 12/1/2004 1:49 AM by TurboZutek - edited 2 times]
We all had ostriches. My dad had an ostrich farm! I remember one day someone came in and said the high altitude bombing of Kosovo had been a limited success, so we all went out and celebrated… by killing an ostrich and boiling it in kiwi fruit. |
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TurboZutek
King Dick
Location: Scotland
Gender: Male
Giant octo-penised rapephant
| | | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 38 on 12/1/2004 1:56 AM >
| | | | Posted by Jester
It's elistist and paranoid to say, "Hey, I spent hour upon hour of research and driving around back roads in the cold wandering through the woods so I could find this place to explore, and now everyone thats too lazy to get off their ass and find something for themselves expects me to draw them a map?"
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I know, personally that I drive the back roads, stake out in the cold, put in the hours* so that I CAN turn around and say:
Here's the full info, you don't have to!
I'm sure I'm not alone either.
Chris...
*And by hours I of course mean days, weeks, and in some cases (Ravenspark is one) MONTHS.
We all had ostriches. My dad had an ostrich farm! I remember one day someone came in and said the high altitude bombing of Kosovo had been a limited success, so we all went out and celebrated… by killing an ostrich and boiling it in kiwi fruit. |
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Caveman6666
Location: NY
| | | Re: Location Database Changes
<Reply # 39 on 12/1/2004 2:01 AM >
| | | | Posted by K.A.O.S.
The whole proliferation of UE on the Internet, on newspapers and TV along with the LDBs and such have indeed mainstreamed the hobby, and frankly I think that sucks. |
Really.
May take a few years, but it'll pass. Trust me.
I kinda agree with the info removal. It's not like the same info isn't on dozens of other sites out there anyway, and it won't keep us determined ones away from anywhere.
The rave problem makes sense, along with the attraction of amateurs, but the vandalism is 99% bored local kids within walking distance. I pulled that number outta my ass, but you get the idea. No one trolls the internet looking for shit to vandalize.
[last edit 12/1/2004 2:02 AM by Caveman6666 - edited 1 times]
Yet another unoriginal generic UE website. GODDAM! |
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