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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9   UER Forum > Archived Old Forum Issues > Location Database Changes (Viewed 2721 times) micro  Gender: Male Slowly I turned  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 100 on 12/1/2004 10:49 PM >   Yeah, I know. That was actually directed more towards Jester. Servo   |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 101 on 12/1/2004 10:51 PM >   Posted by micro Yeah, I know. That was actually directed more towards Jester. Hah, alright. Sorry I directed it at you then. I just wanted to be very very clear, because I hate seeming "l33t". [last edit 12/1/2004 10:51 PM by Servo - edited 1 times] Jester  Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada Gender: Male Always just out of sight...  |  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 102 on 12/1/2004 11:18 PM >   Exploring is more than just the act of going into the building or tunnel. Exploring begins when you start trying to find the place in the first place. The elation you feel when you realize you've found it, and even moreso when you fine that ingenius way inside. I guess i don't like prepackaged exploring. "Hi, can I get, uhmmm, 1 order of Malt Plant, and some Whitby Psyche... no, wait, i'll take some Hearns stack instead. Yeah, it's to go, thanks." [last edit 12/1/2004 11:18 PM by Jester - edited 1 times] It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. Mark  Very Noble Donor Location: South Carolina Gender: Male What is a lion, king of the savannah, when hes at the south pole?  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 103 on 12/1/2004 11:38 PM >   Important part All you people SCREAM AND CRY about vandals. Great! Now instead of finding out or TELLING everyone why this plan is being done a whole bunch of nervous ninies are having a closed discussion behind closed doors. 1. What proof is there that UER is being used by vandals? (obviously there is) 2. How much is there? 3. Are the actions a serial vandal or a epidemic of morons? 4. Will changing info etc on the LDB change or prevent vandals? (directly as in will it stop a few guys that are using THIS site, not some war about there will always be vandals everyone fucking knows that) Could we ask AV since it is his site if the mods can come up with a few possible solutions to the issue and have a vote? Also maybe take two people who have great points on here and put a well thought out case going both directions so all the facts are out instead of, "I saw UER graffiti... a building was burned... we know there evil people" Likewise I dont want to here, "there are always vandals, we cant stop them, the net has it so why cant we" Personal view I hope to GOD everyone is as tired of this shit as I am. First of Jester thanks for your opinions they are great. I am glad that you dont want anyone to be a slacker and they all have to work hard. Thats wonderful.... really. Second thanks for everyone elses opinion about Jester, your right. Absolutely right theres no doubt in my mind your right.... really. I along with several others here have been the driving force in some cities/states and have created most of the places. Due to our work others have found this site through research of specific places. Then others came along and went, "Ohhh shit so thats what they call this." I know all you want to be secret and all but hey, I dont mind people find out that _______ place has pictures. HAS ANYONE ASKED WHY PEOPLE GO TO PLACES THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN TO? Why did we all go to fucking OPEX? To meet people to thank Av to meet Jester and to FUCKING EXPLORE PLACES OTHERS HAVE ALREADY BEEN TO! You know I hate going places everyone else has personally. During capture the flag PAwolf and myself went all around BFE to get to the flag while exploring a active building. If you dont want your site used as a tourist trap by other UE personal do one of two things. 1. Do NOT post it. 2. Do NOT post information specific enough to help anyone (including photos) If your like me and dont give a fly shit post away. Hell I meet SERVO for the second time in ages because he just happened to drive from ALABAMA to SOUTH CAROLINA. Just to go into a building we have. I didnt meet up with them but AbandonedSC did and I was notified he was in town we had dinner together. In fact we talked about are deal with politics and that commie hippie is having two nice radios donated to him as soon as he PM's me back. That being said Av is not going to get rid of the fucking DB. Stop crying about how it should be gone. On that note can someone program a option like the spell check that asks you. Do you want this information public. Then it repeats it or something. "If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles" MatC  Nobler Donor Location: ENY Gender: Male Accepted everywhere  |  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 104 on 12/1/2004 11:56 PM >   Posted by Servo I simply wish the information to not flow, or appear to the authorities to flow, to those we would prefer not have it. [emphasis mine] Believe it or not, this is the key to the whole thing. Everyone knows that sites get vandalized -- it happens every day, whether there are pictures of it online or not. The steps that we need to take, though, are to make sure that it doesn't happen on our watch, or because of information available on UER. We can't post UER guards at every UE location 24/7. We can, however, reduce the amount of information that is publicly available and leave the gatekeeping up to the mods and the person who created the location (as in, whether they give the address and real name to someone who PMs them). Vandalism will still occur, but we can be assured it is not our fault. UER stays clean (as a site that does not provide info to people looking to get inside locations), our consciences stay clear (knowing we didn't help ravers and vandals get into locations). And if things get worse (a la the problems that UEA had) then we can deal with that when/if it arises. Right now, I think the steps that are being taken will do the trick without overly affecting anyone's lives. Easy schmeezy. Now, who's up for some exploring? -- Mat "We shall not cease from exploration / And the end of all our exploring / Will be to arrive where we started / And know the place for the first time." - T.S. Eliot, excerpt from "Little Gidding" Kay O. Sweaver  Location: Montreal, Quebec Gender: Male Happiness is saying yes more often than no.  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 105 on 12/2/2004 12:24 AM >   Information on the UEA LDB incidents is available to anyone that asks. Suffice it to say we have confessions from the rave promoters, vandals, etc. I think that constitutes proof. Many times I've seen a building or drain explored that was in "virgin" condition. Within a few weeks of it being posted on a web site it's been vandalized. Funny how something can go years without so much as dust being disturbed, then suddenly the vandals "miraculously" find it. The Sydney Cave Clan web site was shut down due to threats of legal action from the Road Traffic Authority for giving out too much information about some of their infrastructure. What we are seeing are only the early warning signs. Yes vandalism, illegal raves, street mining and such have all happened before UE as we know it today was in the picture. True, absolutely true. However now that UE is established on the Internet and promoted on TV and in newspapers these vandals, ravers, drug dealers, etc. are now aware of this wonderful new resource and this wonderful new disguise. I'm not proposing any overarching solutions for UER to follow or adopt. My concern is with my local UE group where my interests and influence are more immediate. I'd like you all to thoroughly consider the experiences of UEA and the Cave Clan however. Come up with your own solution, but don't just coast along on autopilot towards a cliff, that would make me very sad. P.S.: There's nothing wrong with being secretive and "elite." If you want into the club, play by the club's rules. Otherwise start your own club. One community cannot represent the ideals and interests of everyone. ========================== Amy Smith is an infected slut el nerdo  Chief UER Lackey Gender: Male What are you, from the Department of Know'm Sayin's? You takin' a Know'm census?  |  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 106 on 12/2/2004 12:28 AM >   Posted by Crossfire For fuck sakes... it's not about this particular location. It was simply used as an example. God, some of you guys are so narrow-minded. Can you not see the big picture? It's not about any one location, it's about taking responsibility for what is going on around here - as a whole. By allowing John Q. Public to browse through a collection of abandoned locations in his city, it could increase the chance of any of these places being destroyed prematurely. Obviously, the LDB isn't the sole reason behind all the problems with arson and vandalism, but when there is proof that it may have contributed to even the slightest bit, should we think about what it could do in the future? Some of you can't see the forest for the trees. Take a step back, take off the blinders, and try to look ahead. Are the risks of having an open database of abandoned locations, their addresses, and some times photos of evident points of entry, worth it? Are we contributing to the hurried destruction and/or sealing of these locations? Is it safer to assume that we are, or safer to assume that we're not? C. At least there's one person in here that gets it. 'Dukes  Noble Donor Gender: Male At least someone llikes me  |  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 107 on 12/2/2004 12:56 AM >   I, as has Jester, spent more time driving, and half the time NOT finding a location than actually visiting. And at least a quarter of these places were IN the database. Let's face it, most of the "high visibility" locations are already well known to the locals. They don't travel a hundred miles to vandalize a location, they come from the same town. Unfortunately, they don't need a location database to find it. They need a website with discussions like "grappling hooks", "types of camouflage" , and the usual to motivate them to become the next "Stealthy explorer". Unfortunately they usually bring their friends. I think it's the site itself which probably most influences would be vandals. Some kid in Toronto may have been aware of "Fill in the blank" Hospital his entire life, but until he started reading UER, he never realized how much of a stealth Ninja type he was . Then he breaks his cherry by "sneaking" in at night and tearing the crap out of an already abused building. He didn't need the LDB, he just needed the inspiration. Then there is the name withholding; I can't see that making sense either(except to keep UER out of the spotlight); If you properly document your location with "Town: Whitby Ontario, location : wierd old hospital" then assuming the person looking isn't already aware of it's existence, all he/ she would have to do is Google "abandoned hospital Whitby". In fact I just did that and guess what the number one hit was? You got it, UER! But it sure wasn't the LDB! It was this gem, complete with links for the aspiring Canadian Juvenile delinquent (or worse, Adult idiot who thinks he's Gordon Freeman). http://www.uer.ca/...ns/exp-whitby1.asp My solution would be to change the names of VERY prominent sites such as this (just to keep UER out of the limelight as Mike D did with his sight), block searchability (or restrict conversations thereof) of the former on the forums. I'd be more concerned for smaller sites that have been found. All the locals know where the large buildings are. So protect your finds from idiots by not posting addresses, or providing shady names. I did this in one of my locations , not because I thought it would attract vandals, but because the village didn't deserve to have a bunch of idiots crawling all over it searching for the abandonments. Especially when some are owned by Private interests and not some faceless government agency. Use common sense; I'm about to post a unique rural location, but after thinking about the fact that is a historic endangered landmark and has already suffered one arson related attack, I'm going to be very generic about it. Fortunately it's protected from the unambitious by a five mile hike, but the rules require me to state the location. I'll make up a fake name. Maybe I'll post it in Scotland, that'll leave the Neds confused won't it Matey! Don't give out information on "new " finds. Bizzy and I did some research and came up with a nice military installation nearby that no one even looks twice at anymore (except some paintballers). When a local Pm'd to ask for directions (now that IS unambitious!) , Bizzy played dumb and said "Uhh, I get real lost back there, you'll have to ask 'Dukes, he always drives" . Good girl. One more thing about the people that think LDB fans are "armchair explorers". I take offense. Me? I hiked ten miles round trip in rain and three inches of slush today just to document a place I find interesting, and hopefully some folks on a different continent will enjoy as well. I froze my feet, my camera got soaked, and I forgot my smokes. But hopefully some people on another continent will enjoy seeing my stuff as much as I like seeing theirs. All while you explored some site (great as it may be ) that everyone and their brother knows about. And if I found a quality lamp shade, why yes I would have placed it on my head just for the occasion. I've looked at every picture in the Scotland LDB. You think I write down the names of all these places so I know where to go next time I happen to drive through Scotland? Hell no! I want to see some places I will never see (well that's not entirely true) and the people that made the images. In addition it's become a forum of it's own. I hope you see the point. I got your tour winner right here pussies, at least he'd crash out trying. Decoy  Location: Leslieville Gender: Male Oh I have slipped the bonds of earth...  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 108 on 12/2/2004 1:18 AM >   Posted by 'Dukes One more thing about the people that think LDB fans are "armchair explorers". I take offense. Me? I hiked ten miles round trip in rain and three inches of slush today just to document a place I find interesting, and hopefully some folks on a different continent will enjoy as well. I froze my feet, my camera got soaked, and I forgot my smokes. But hopefully some people on another continent will enjoy seeing my stuff as much as I like seeing theirs. Now see, to me, that's the essence of what the LDB is about, and we don't need addresses for it to work. I think the changes made will probably help to some extent..... now... The changes are made, Av has made up his mind. The LDB isn't going away, nothing else is going to happen apparently. Why are we all still fighting? It's a drag, it's a bore, it's really such a pitty To be lookin' at the board, not lookin' at the city. Mike Dijital  UEDB Moderator Location: Boston MA. Gender: Male UE ver. 1.0  |  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 109 on 12/2/2004 1:21 AM >   Posted by Decoy Why are we all still fighting? Because if enough numbers make it know, Av will have to take notice. UER is nothing with out its members. We should form a members union =) www.deggi5.com / www.mikedijital.com Decoy  Location: Leslieville Gender: Male Oh I have slipped the bonds of earth...  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 110 on 12/2/2004 1:24 AM >   Make what known? I haven't seen any lynch mob for one side or against form yet. We all seem to have our ideas and our allies in this "fight"... but I doubt anyone is going to convince Av of making any other changes. I'm not trying to call you stubborn av, nor am I saying that we're all weak around here... just that it seems to be that way... It's a drag, it's a bore, it's really such a pitty To be lookin' at the board, not lookin' at the city. micro  Gender: Male Slowly I turned  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 111 on 12/2/2004 3:02 AM >   I just want to take this moment to say that I'm entirely happy with AV's (now revised) changes to the DB. "User discretion is advised" is a policy that works well enough for me. That being said, this is a fun debate, so please.. carry on. Haunting_1963  Location: Edmonton AB Gender: Male  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 112 on 12/2/2004 3:07 AM >   I don't see this as a fight rather as a discussion of the future of web sites like this. No-one has lost their temper and I have read many good arguments that I hadn't thought of. This has gone beyond the realm of just this site. If someone were to model a new UE site he/she would do well to read this thread. Have Flashlight Will Travel. Jester  Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada Gender: Male Always just out of sight...  |  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 113 on 12/2/2004 4:30 AM >   I don't make it easy to find the places I post on Wraiths. My simple rule is, if it's got protection or is damn difficult to get into, then I'm not going to hide the place. I'll say Riverview Psyche is riverview psyche, if some assmunch wants to get caught by security, all the better. A place that needs protection will remain mysterious though, and won't be found due to my exploration. It hasn't ruined the enjoyment people have gotten from seeing where I've been. What it has done is protect the places I've been. This is much the same idea as what the LDB will be doing. If a person is worried about the place they've found, then it will be protected to some degree, but isn't going to stop people from enjoying seeing it, and if they want more info, they can easily ask the person that created the entry. Like if I was going to take a trip to Scotland, I'd message Turbo and ask him about some locations and see if he'd want to meet up. He'd of course say no, because i'm just a tabi boot wearing, camouflaged egomaniac, but for normal people he'd surely be happy to help you out and show some scottish hospitality. It's that easy. It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. oCtAnE  Location: TORONTO, CANADA Gender: Male EXPLORER AT LARGE  |  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 114 on 12/2/2004 4:42 AM >   Posted by el nerdo You quote me and then use that quote out of context. You then contradict yourself 100%. My rebuttal was to the hard and fast statement that "{y}ou don't lose anything by giving out it's location" Obviously, *some* sites have lost something. You say as much above. And no, it's not acceptable. Instead of sitting there and counting how many contradictions happen in one post, how about heed my suggestion: If vandalism bothers you THIS FREAKING MUCH, then go, take a flashlight and a baseball bat and go nuts. You can talk the talk, but I see no evidence of you ever walking the walk. LESS TALK, MORE ACTION. Let me reiterate: WE CAN'T PREDICT VANDALISM. We might be able to prevent it, but for how long? A year? A month? A day? NOBODY KNOWS. This is all too complex and unpredictable. NOBODY HAS ESP. Okay, maybe the minor changes might help. But I still maintain the position that the LDB is NOT responsible for the vandalism in any way. If anyone is concerned with high-profile locations being defaced, the answer is simple: DON'T PUT THEM IN THE LDB! Sheesh. A little common sense is in order. And as always....Have a nice day! -Octane [last edit 12/2/2004 4:42 AM by oCtAnE - edited 1 times] FUELED BY OCTANE. INeedAttention.com  Noble Donor Location: New York, NY Gender: Male Senior troll analyst  |  |  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 115 on 12/2/2004 5:02 AM >   My opinion: the sun will come out, tomorrow, bet your bottom dollar that tomorrow, there'll be sun. Seriously though, I don't believe that the events being discussed here as justification for changes are anything more than isolated instances. With 1600 locations and 6000 members, there is plenty of room for foolishness. Vandals, arsonists, and other criminals have always used abandoned buildings. None of us can change that, with the exception of the law enforcers that lurk on these boards. In fact, maybe that's the best part of a detailed LDB. Some cop might lurk here, find out about a place he never thought twice about, and suddenly start keeping a more watchful eye out. Totally hypothetical, though, as we know that most cops are nothing more than filthy bastards bent on beating us to within an inch of our life with their badges. But /seriously/, I vote to not change the LDB or other policies of UER. It's about cost vs. benefit. I didn't even look at UER's forums until I had been checking out the LDB for months. Are you all trying say that you're trying to get rid of people like me? Colours, LINKS, images, etc are not allowed, text and LINKS only. Emphasis mine. Control  Location: NYC, All day every day. Because it's expected  |  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 116 on 12/2/2004 5:22 AM >   Ironic that I was just talkin' about this topic on another board just a few days ago... * ahem *. Anyway. As per usual I've got a few things to say... First, congrats, Av, on the wise and logical change. Second - this isn't something that should just be done here in the LDB. If you've got a site want to avoid headaches down the road, don't post names, addresses, etc online. It simply leads to too many complications, vandalism being just one of them. Back when I finally threw the LTV site online in 01', there was really only one other UE site covering the NYC area, that being Dark Passage (yeah, there was jinx, but that was more bridge climbing, social engineering and media jamming than anything else, at least in my mind). Julia had the foresight to never name spots, I saw the logic in that and did the same, preaching the gospel of creative naming and never giving out too much information to anyone in town that threw a site up since then. Just about everyone here 'get's it'. In the years since then, and despite something of a rise in people exploring here (or at least having sites about exploring here), we've had few problems with vandalism or locations getting secured due to the exposure. it has happened - one prime subway spot was locked down once word got out about it with the subway fanatics years ago (hell, a cop was posted outside of it until it was sealed 2 weeks later). Another place just this year got too hot and is now pretty well trashed. Shit happens... but for 95% of the spots in this town, just a little bit of creative renaming and withholding of information has gone a long way. Tourists? if someone seems reputable we'll take them around... Slim jim stayed at my place for like a week once. Insane Bunkers crew from RI drops by a' plenty... My point is simple. We sometimes go out of our way to keep information ont he downlow here in NYC - and it has not harmed exploration here one bit. I'd be inclined to say that it has thrived due in part to it. people go out and find their own spots, share more and spread more. At the end of the day, the table is more full of ripe spots to pick from for those who have proven themselves to be responsible explorers. Anyone else can talk to the hand and feel rejected... The Zoo York Goon Squad. If it looks good, Loot it. oCtAnE  Location: TORONTO, CANADA Gender: Male EXPLORER AT LARGE  |  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 117 on 12/2/2004 5:47 AM >   Posted by INeedAttention.com Seriously though, I don't believe that the events being discussed here as justification for changes are anything more than isolated instances. With 1600 locations and 6000 members, there is plenty of room for foolishness. Vandals, arsonists, and other criminals have always used abandoned buildings. None of us can change that, with the exception of the law enforcers that lurk on these boards. INeedAttention.com, I fucking LOVE YOU. In fact, maybe that's the best part of a detailed LDB. Some cop might lurk here, find out about a place he never thought twice about, and suddenly start keeping a more watchful eye out. Very good point. Everybody take notes. But /seriously/, I vote to not change the LDB or other policies of UER. It's about cost vs. benefit. Damn straight. -Octane FUELED BY OCTANE. HauntedPA  Location: Anywhere and Everywhere Gender: Female What do you mean the rum is gone?!  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 118 on 12/2/2004 12:45 PM >   The problem isn't so much the LDB, it's this http://www.uer.ca/...d=1&threadid=15529 Here's a person that's been a member for less than 7 days, that we know nothing about and folks are just giving out info like it's water. That my friends in the problem. INeedAttention.com  Noble Donor Location: New York, NY Gender: Male Senior troll analyst  |  |  |  Re: Location Database Changes <Reply # 119 on 12/2/2004 12:56 PM >   Posted by HauntedPA The problem isn't so much the LDB, it's this http://www.uer.ca/...d=1&threadid=15529 Here's a person that's been a member for less than 7 days, that we know nothing about and folks are just giving out info like it's water. That my friends in the problem. Did anyone else notice that the post referenced here purports interest in hotels because they 'would love to buy one and fix it up,' yet they are also 17 according to the age provided? Seems somewhat inconsistent with the financial capabilities of the majority of 17 year olds. Colours, LINKS, images, etc are not allowed, text and LINKS only. Emphasis mine. UER Forum > Archived Old Forum Issues > Location Database Changes (Viewed 2721 times)  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9   All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. 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