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 1vertical1
 |  | Re: rope work
<Reply # 40 on 7/24/2009 3:19 AM >
|  | | | True for peak dynamic loads that a dynamic rope will elongate to between 30 to 40%, but in a static situation with body weight you will only get about 6% stretch. As for a static line, to accomplish a 6% stretch, approx. 10% of the MBS need to be loaded on the rope. The Bluewater 11.5 assault line has a MBS of 6500 lbs. Thats a 650lbs load.....ahhh shit, I'm just being nitpicky...sorry...lol
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wopke
 
Gender: Male
| | Re: rope work
<Reply # 41 on 9/11/2009 9:39 PM >
| | | | I'm gonna climb the crane tonight. Just to take some pictures and for a little exploration. I'll be making a second climb later on the year.
EDIT: So no rope work at this point 
[last edit 9/11/2009 9:47 PM by wopke - edited 1 times]
I tried being reasonable, I didnt like it. - Clint Eastwood |
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: rope work
<Reply # 42 on 9/11/2009 9:54 PM >
| | | | Posted by TheVicariousVadder
Static line is okay to use for short fall protection. My lanyards are only an arms length so in the event of a slip; I'm only going to fall to a point where I can reach anyways. And the whiplash won't be that bad; if there's any at all.
If you needed to do a fast descent (escape) down the side of the crane; that's when you would want the static rope. If you plan on climbing on and climbing back down ... then the longer rope is unnecessary. I keep the 40' of static line with me in case I need to do a self rescue.
Most ropes course rope used is dynamic because of the likelihood of a fall.
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Static rope would then be the proper type to use for rappelling down a 198' shaft and ascending back up, I would presume?
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\/adder
  
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 43 on 9/11/2009 11:11 PM >
| | | | Posted by bfinan0
Static rope would then be the proper type to use for rappelling down a 198' shaft and ascending back up, I would presume?
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Correct. Static rope is used when the chance of impact is minimal. You don't want to fall on static rope. Using ascenders or prussiks doesn't put a significant amount of stress on a rope. Keeping yourself attached using 40 feet of static rope and then falling 40 feet (up to +10 feet of stretch) on that rope is going to hurt... a lot.
Dynamic is used to cushion falls.
Any kind of short rope will suffice as a safety lead line to ladder or railing given it's rated for your weight or better. The stretch and fall won't be great enough to matter.
And if you used dynamic for ascending you would have a much harder time going back up because the rope is going to stretch a lot more so you will have to ascend a greater amount of rope for the same distance.
and wopke: dooo ittt... I want to climb stuff tonight but it may end in a reconnaissance mission, weather depending.
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 44 on 9/11/2009 11:16 PM >
| | | | Posted by TheVicariousVadder
Correct. Static rope is used when the chance of impact is minimal. You don't want to fall on static rope. Using ascenders or prussiks doesn't put a significant amount of stress on a rope. Keeping yourself attached using 40 feet of static rope and then falling 40 feet (up to +10 feet of stretch) on that rope is going to hurt... a lot.
Dynamic is used to cushion falls.
Any kind of short rope will suffice as a safety lead line to ladder or railing given it's rated for your weight or better. The stretch and fall won't be great enough to matter.
And if you used dynamic for ascending you would have a much harder time going back up because the rope is going to stretch a lot more so you will have to ascend a greater amount of rope for the same distance.
and wopke: dooo ittt... I want to climb stuff tonight but it may end in a reconnaissance mission, weather depending.
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There's no ladder or anything, the theory is just to rappel straight down 198 feet. So I don't see how there would be any possibility of a fall, since my two years of engineering school make it appear to be an internal-force system where the stress on the rope cannot exceed 2W with W being the climber's weight. (W of weight acting on the rope and W of tension from climbing up). So my next question is, how many ascenders are required to climb a rope, 1, 2, or 4? (i know it can't possibly be 3, that would just be awkward)
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AnAppleSnail
Location: Charlotte, NC
Gender: Male
ALL the flashlights!
| |  | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 45 on 9/11/2009 11:34 PM >
| | | | Posted by bfinan0
There's no ladder or anything, the theory is just to rappel straight down 198 feet. So I don't see how there would be any possibility of a fall, since my two years of engineering school make it appear to be an internal-force system where the stress on the rope cannot exceed 2W with W being the climber's weight. (W of weight acting on the rope and W of tension from climbing up). So my next question is, how many ascenders are required to climb a rope, 1, 2, or 4? (i know it can't possibly be 3, that would just be awkward)
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Old thread, starring Shane
Posted by Shane
[snip]
I swing over into the small 2x2 hole that is right in the middle of the roof and start my descent. About halfway down, I have to navigate around some metal beams... and that's when it all went wrong. I somehow lost control of my descender, and I free fell the rest of the way in, probably a good 12-15 feet. I hit hard with my right foot first, it twisted and I immediately knew I had injured something.
[/snip]
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I can't find exactly where it is, but I think the trouble was letting the descender slip while working around stuff in the way. I know you won't encounter this in the shaft, but it kinda goes without saying know how to do it anyway, and know your knots. Good luck, I look forward to the next DrainWhale!
Edit: bfinan0 pointed out that I can't read - he's fine on the descent and was asking about ascenders. I'm going to scuttle back into the shadows or something...
[last edit 9/11/2009 11:51 PM by AnAppleSnail - edited 1 times]
Achievement Unlocked
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 46 on 9/11/2009 11:41 PM >
| | | | Posted by AnAppleSnail
Old thread, starring Shane
I can't find exactly where it is, but I think the trouble was letting the descender slip while working around stuff in the way. I know you won't encounter this in the shaft, but it kinda goes without saying know how to do it anyway, and know your knots. Good luck, I look forward to the next DrainWhale!
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I know quite a variety of knots, this thread is largely irrelevant (the question was about ASCenders, which are completely different), and as you might be able to tell DRAINWHALE 15 will be something absolutely epic (I think anything starting with a 198' drop automatically is)...as long as it's possible
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 48 on 9/12/2009 12:19 AM >
| | | |
I thought the idea was to have an ascender for the hands and two Pruŝik knots for the feet?
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uLiveAndYouBurn
Location: Beyond
Anarchocommunist
| | Re: rope work
<Reply # 49 on 9/12/2009 12:25 AM >
| | | | no need, you dont need a device for each limb. One device or knot is tied into your harness. The other you use to step on. You step up on the lower ascender, and bring up you harness ascender as far as you can get it, then you put your weight in that and bring up the foot ascender as high as your foot can go, then you step up again and repeat.
"Aint nothin' to it but to do it"
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 50 on 9/12/2009 12:27 AM >
| | | | Posted by uLiveAndYouBurn
no need, you dont need a device for each limb. One device or knot is tied into your harness. The other you use to step on. You step up on the lower ascender, and bring up you harness ascender as far as you can get it, then you put your weight in that and bring up the foot ascender as high as your foot can go, then you step up again and repeat.
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THAT explains it! I couldnt figure out how to get by with so few of them but I was also baffled why ascenders aren't sold by the 2 or 4 if multiple were necessary
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Bryan
  
Location: hello
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 51 on 9/12/2009 12:29 AM >
| | | |
I'm not sure about you, but I wouldn't want to climb 198' on Prussicks. That would be stupidly time consuming. Obviously, it's the way to go if you're a struggling student.
There are dozens of different systems, the most common being the sit-stand. In which, you have two mechanical ascenders (commonly: Petzl Ascenders, referred to as Jumars. They work by allowing the device to slide one way.. teeth then dig into the rope and prevent them from going down). One connecting to your harness, and the other connecting to a footloop. You stand up in the footloop, and slide up your waist ascender.. and then relax (sit). You'll just hang there, as you slide up your foot ascender, stand up, whiling sliding up your waist ascender. Depending on your setup, you can get pretty efficient systems going.
Mind you, there are still dozens of different systems using Crolls, boot ascenders, Prussicks.. it's really just personal preference, and how much you want to dish out for your safety and efficiency.
However, if you don't have the experience, it's not the best idea to do it without someone who has been properly trained, or at least knows what he/she are doing. 198' isn't something to dick around with. Not to mention, going back up that, regardless of what system you use, will be physically exhausting and/or time consuming.
/awaits junkyards tales of ascending with beer
drive well sleep carefully
http://www.exboration.com/ |
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 52 on 9/12/2009 1:03 AM >
| | | | Posted by Bryan
I'm not sure about you, but I wouldn't want to climb 198' on Prussicks.1 That would be stupidly time consuming. Obviously, it's the way to go if you're a struggling student.
There are dozens of different systems, the most common being the sit-stand. In which, you have two mechanical ascenders (commonly: Petzl Ascenders, referred to as Jumars. They work by allowing the device to slide one way.. teeth then dig into the rope and prevent them from going down). One connecting to your harness, and the other connecting to a footloop. You stand up in the footloop, and slide up your waist ascender.. and then relax (sit). You'll just hang there, as you slide up your foot ascender, stand up, whiling sliding up your waist ascender. 2 Depending on your setup, you can get pretty efficient systems going.
Mind you, there are still dozens of different systems using Crolls, boot ascenders, Prussicks.. it's really just personal preference, and how much you want to dish out for your safety and efficiency. 3
However, if you don't have the experience, it's not the best idea to do it without someone who has been properly trained, or at least knows what he/she are doing. 4198' isn't something to dick around with. Not to mention, going back up that, regardless of what system you use, will be physically exhausting and/or time consuming. 5
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1. I don't think I ever suggested that, my idea more involved 4 ascenders
2. This would be the method that does NOT require doing numerous pull-ups?
3. Being a student of mechanical engineering, I understand that the more complicated a system is, the greater its potential mechanical advantage. Are you saying the same is true with ascenders, and if so, is more to be gained from having 4 ascenders, or from having 2 expensive ones?
4. Obviously. Our plan was to start from a local footbridge, practice going up/down a 17-foot span with water at the bottom. Then maybe try a bigger bridge, if the need arose.
5. Again, rather obvious. As long as it doesn't require doing 198 feet worth of chin-ups...this is what one climber told me as advice, and I knew instantly there was something rotten in those physics.
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gsxrac
Location: Richmond
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 53 on 9/12/2009 2:52 PM >
| | | | So what would yall say would be a good small kit to keep in my regular UE pack? Ive done some climbing in the past but dont have any of my own equipment at the moment other than a bunch of 'biners and a quickdraw that get used for various task's around the house. I was thinking a 40' rope (Where can I get GOOD rope at a decent price, im doing the struggling college student thing but im also 6'4 and 230-240 so I dont need some POS rope to crap out on me.) 4 'biners, an ascender (Havent decided which one I want but I may just look @ used ones on the bay), gotta buy a harness, an 8, and I already carry gloves so anything else I might need?
[last edit 9/12/2009 2:59 PM by gsxrac - edited 1 times]
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\/adder
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 54 on 9/12/2009 4:27 PM >
| | | | A 40' length is an awkward amount (I had the exact same amount) Unless you are using a grappling hook or need it only for a very short rappel I found the only time (out of dozens of times) I needed it the hook got stuck and we had to leave it there.
You will probably have to go to a store that sells climbing equipment to get it cut: Eastern Mountain Sports, REI, or similar. Including tax 11mm static will be ~$1 a foot.
If you don't need it right away ... wait. EMS puts their rope on sale every few months and they had a great deal where 200' of rope was $120 but if you spent over $100 you get a $25 giftcard. So you get twice the amount of rope for the same price.
Buying Guide To Rope
http://www.rei.com...1%3ARopes+and+Bags
http://www.ems.com...&orderBy_ems=price
I personally have three screw-gate carabiners and two autolocking carabiners.
I have a 3-D Ring fall protection so my safety harness can't be used for ropework.
When I replace my climbing rope (when I find a reason to) I will be getting the Black Diamond Chest Harness coupled with another low end harness.
http://www.ems.com...&orderBy_ems=price
Climbing gear is expensive. You are looking at spending $2-$300 to get yourself all set up.
Factor
Carabiners ($6-8/ea), Rope (at least $100 for a minimum setup), Figure 8 ($20)... at least $150 if you buy cheap
climbing harness ... $40-50 minimum.
Ascender ... I haven't ever seen one listed for under $60
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
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Bryan
Location: hello
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 55 on 9/12/2009 5:45 PM >
| | | | Posted by bfinan0
1. I don't think I ever suggested that, my idea more involved 4 ascenders |
I was referring to uLiveAndYouBurn's post, in which he suggest prussicks as a cheap alternative. The problem being, they're incredibly slow, and sometimes (depending on the rope's condition) unreliable.
| 2. This would be the method that does NOT require doing numerous pull-ups? |
Sort of. If done properly, you can exert little to no effort. It's more like pulling yourself up from a sitting position. If you do it correctly, you put all of the effort into your legs, which tend to last longer. If you pace yourself, and move at a speed you're comfortable with, you can make it up 200 feet in 5-10 minutes, taking a break whenever you feel exhausted.
| 3. Being a student of mechanical engineering, I understand that the more complicated a system is, the greater its potential mechanical advantage. Are you saying the same is true with ascenders, and if so, is more to be gained from having 4 ascenders, or from having 2 expensive ones? |
It may be true in theory, but when practicality comes into play, you don't gain any advantages other than safety, and another $80 out of your pocket. All of the systems I've read about that use 3 ascenders (they're pretty rare) are done so strictly out of safety. Redundancy plays a huge part in all of rock climbing/caving, and with three ascenders, you have three attachment points, should any one of them fail.
This system is all from my personal experience, and budget limitations. I know a few members on here use a frog system, which utilizes a Petzl Croll with a chest harness, which apparently makes things effortless and super efficient.
drive well sleep carefully
http://www.exboration.com/ |
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micro
 
Gender: Male
Slowly I turned
| | Re: rope work
<Reply # 56 on 9/12/2009 8:01 PM >
| | | | Pick up a copy of the book On Rope if you can.
http://www.amazon....lers/dp/1879961059
See if you can get lessons of some sort with your local caving society. Don't bother with rock-climbers. You need the help of people who are familiar with SRT gear and how to use it.
And as Bryan mentioned, the Petzl Croll + chest harness + hand ascender system will make life a lot easier because it helps keep your body more vertical while going up a rope.
Oh yeah.. and how would one go about using a four ascender system anyway? I've never seen/heard of such a thing.
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 57 on 9/12/2009 10:28 PM >
| | | | Posted by micro
Pick up a copy of the book On Rope if you can.
http://www.amazon....lers/dp/1879961059
See if you can get lessons of some sort with your local caving society. Don't bother with rock-climbers. You need the help of people who are familiar with SRT gear and how to use it.
And as Bryan mentioned, the Petzl Croll + chest harness + hand ascender system will make life a lot easier because it helps keep your body more vertical while going up a rope.
Oh yeah.. and how would one go about using a four ascender system anyway? I've never seen/heard of such a thing.
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Firstly, there are no caves around here (except of the man-made variety, and at that only this one), and secondly rock climbers need to rappel too, don't they?
I thought 4 ascenders could = one for each hand and foot...it would be overkill, but it would work
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Loki
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Gender: Male
| | Re: rope work
<Reply # 58 on 9/14/2009 4:19 AM >
| | | | Posted by bfinan0
I thought 4 ascenders could = one for each hand and foot...it would be overkill, but it would work
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I don't think it would, at least not well enough to climb 200ft without passing out from exhaustion.
Like others have said, keep it simple. Hand ascender, chest ascender, foot loop and lanyard from hand to harness, it's not that hard, if a lanky teenager with a fear of heights can teach himself so can you.
Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank |
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junkyard
Location: LaCrosse, WI
Gender: Male
Strategic Beer Command where the metal hits the meat.
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 59 on 9/17/2009 3:28 AM >
| | | | Just got back from a place where mechanical asenders worked real good. Prussiks would have sucked. I had to smash a big rock with a smaller rock just so I'd fit through the hole. I figured I'd get stuck on the way back through. I did. I had a guy pull the slack end through and slide me through the hole. They always shove me through these holes because I volunteer and I get paid in beer. We have been after a particular mine for 6 years and I said it was possible. 2 other guys said it was a death trap. We finally go back and decide it's good enough to try. Maybe I'm bullshitting on static stretching 10 ft, but it's 6-8 guaranteed. I pull quite a bit more down that I would assume before I get a bite. But for any interested, I will tell you this. You DON'T want to fall on static. Yeah, it'll hurt. But dynamic isn't so much to protect you, as it is the anchor. You weigh 150lbs and fall you can build up more force than you can imagine real quick. If that shocks the anchor instantly, it could fail, and you fall all the way to the bottom, not just part way. If that load is decelrated and spread out over a few seconds, you have a way better chance. Also your body will thank you. Whatever shock you get, the anchor gets. It's not magic, just simple physics.
I drink gasoline for breakfeast and beer for dinner!
Any problem can be licked with a case of beer and a few sticks of dynamite.
Strategic Beer Command ruling the desert since 1995 http://www.strategic-beer-command.com |
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