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UER Forum > Archived UE Main > rope work (Viewed 15245 times)
1vertical1 






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Re: rope work
<Reply # 200 on 7/29/2010 2:19 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by TheVicariousVadder
">http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/Negative_Silver/Gear/_MG_7789.jpg


Now I'm turned on.

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Re: rope work
<Reply # 201 on 7/29/2010 3:24 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by 1vertical1
http://i214.photob.../Gear/_MG_7789.jpg


Me too! That's a lot of nice rope
[last edit 7/29/2010 3:26 AM by PositivePressure - edited 1 times]

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Re: rope work
<Reply # 202 on 10/8/2010 4:48 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by PositivePressure


Me too! That's a lot of nice rope


I thought about cutting it down to 2 x 100' sections but decided to can keep the 200' section together and found an ebay seller offering 98' of 3/8" static cut into 3 sections for $49 (free shipping)


34',32',32'
[last edit 10/8/2010 5:47 AM by \/adder - edited 1 times]

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Re: rope work
<Reply # 203 on 10/8/2010 8:29 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Nice gear =D

Here's a shot of my basic loadout.

1.


2.


Since a few months ago when I took these pics, I've gotten another 2 coils of 200ft 7/16", ropebags for all the ropes, a couple dozen more anchor loops and straps and 2 daisy chains, 2 etriers, a reverso, 2 pulleys, a Frog setup, and some other various pieces of gear, including a harness which I use now purely for mining.

One of these days I need to spread ALLLLL the gear out and take a photo.


Now that I look at the photo, I realized I've been missing my regular ATC for at least the last 2 trips. I think I lent it out on a trip and it disappeared. =(
The reverso will take it's place now I suppose, as it is considerably more versatile than a regular ATC.




[last edit 10/8/2010 8:30 AM by Therrin - edited 1 times]

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Re: rope work
<Reply # 204 on 10/8/2010 11:04 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Whats that big bronze colored thing in the first photo?

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Therrin 

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Re: rope work
<Reply # 205 on 10/8/2010 11:35 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by uLiveAndYouBurn
Whats that big bronze colored thing in the first photo?


It's a port-a-wrap III!!

I use one of the big green anchor pieces from the other photo, either the loopie sling (adjustable diameter continuous loop), or the one-eye sling, to anchor it to an object. They're 3/4" rope anchor pieces. WLL 2200 lbs, tensile strength 22000lb.


I use those to attach the Port-A-Wrap device:


It's a lowering device. I can use ropes up to 3/4" with it, or down to as small as I want. The device has a working load limit (WLL) of 2 tons, and a tensile strength of 20 tons.

I've lowered sections of trees on it that weighed roughly 2,500lbs, using my 3/8" rigging line, and it only takes the gentle touch of one hand to control the speed of descent, or you can tie it off and stop it completely. (it actually can be done with one finger on the line).

I use it for trees, but you can use it for anything. People, vehicles, trees, ...heavy stuff of all kinds.


1.


2.


3.


4.


5.



The Port-A-Wrap III (steel, size large) is about $120. It's invaluable if you ever have large heavy loads to lower. Before that I was lowering smaller pieces using a 6-bar rack rated to 20,000lbs. But the Port-A-Wrap is a very stout piece of equipment. It certainly makes you feel that you can accomplish more, in larger pieces, with more control.

Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =)
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Re: rope work
<Reply # 206 on 10/9/2010 11:01 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 


I'm in the Cool Climbing Kid Club now!

Lol... actually I just bought a harness, 10ft of rope (which turned out to be a bit thicker than needed and not long enough), two 2 Black Mountain non-locking biners, and one Metolius screw-gate locking biner for an upcoming trip. The trip got canceled, and now I have a harness. I think I know how to properly wear this thing... And I think those knots I learned online will hold my weight... but, just to be safe, one of you guys should probably check them before we go climb something TOO high.


edit4grammorz
[last edit 10/9/2010 11:03 PM by LAX - edited 1 times]

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Re: rope work
<Reply # 207 on 10/10/2010 2:40 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
@therrin
That friction-saver is pretty sweet. I'd never thought of that, and it's a much safer setup than some of the things I've been using. Thanks for the info.

@whootsinator
You didn't tie backup knots between your figure 8's. You want a double-barrel (or at least an overhand knot) behind it. If you really really don't have enough rope for that, taping the ends to the body would be better than nothing.

Anyone near PA who wants to summit http://www.uer.ca/...ow.asp?locid=22311 pm me.
[last edit 10/10/2010 2:43 AM by MindHacker - edited 1 times]

"That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire
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Re: rope work
<Reply # 208 on 10/10/2010 7:37 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
LOL ! Yeah, those are pretty short!

When I'm buying rope by the foot, for something I have in mind, I sit down with a piece of rope the same size, or I stand there in the store next to the spool, and I tie what I'm planning on making, or at least a rough approximation of it, and see how much rope it's gonna take, then I take that number, and add one or two feet two it, then buy the rope. That way I have plenty of line to work with when tying my special lanyards.

a figure 8 on a bight will eat up 3 feet of rope really easily, 4 feet or so if you're tying a backup knot on it. I'm not overly fond of backup knots. I've NEVER had a figure 8 of any sort pull out on me. I've never met anyone who has. I usually leave about a 3" tail on it and call it good. Lately I've been taping them down with high quality electrical tape. Keeps it nice and dressed up.

The other thing you can do is tie your knot, wet it, cinch it down tight, and let it dry.

The picture doesn't show them with the greatest angle, but they appear to be tied fine.

As my personal opinion... It's better to have a knot tied properly with no backup knot, than to have it tied wrong with one or six backups tied after it. And you should always have some tail, even if you're not using backup knots. Yours appear to be fine.
____________________________________________________________________________

I've also noticed people who tie their bight-knots with HUGE bights in them. It's completely unecessary; and when passing a section where two ropes are clipped together, it creates a larger gap that you have to bypass. The bight at the end of the knot only needs to be big enough to fit about 3 biners and it's good.

In the lanyards I tie now I use plastic thimbles cinched into the bight. They give you a nice easy opening to clip into, but the best part is, they hold the bight of the rope at a wide enough angle to maintain the full strength of the rope.
When you're clipping directly over a biner, the rope is pulled around in a tight angle bend, which stretches the fibers on the outside of the bend further than the fibers on the inside. This causes a loss of tensile strength of the fibers. And if untied and retied so that you're loading the opposite side of the rope, it will create a weak spot.

Thimbles are cheap (about $0.50 to $2 each), and come in a variety of materials and types.






Here's a picture of the end of one of my lanyards I created.




(Sorry I didn't intend to write a book here, but there's one last thing I'd like to mention)

I learned this great way of getting the most out of the strength of your ropes. Say you tie a figure 8 on a bight, and you're gonna use it to clip to your anchor point(s), and throw your rope down to use it for descending/ascending....

After you clip it in, you take a prussik cord loop and tie a prussik knot onto your main line, clip it into the anchor biner, then pull about a foot of slack up through the prussik knot. (use roughly 8mm cord for 7/16" & 1/2" lines).

It will look similar to this (typically without the rigging plate, I just had the photo already).


This does two things for you:
1. It removes the knot of the main line from being loaded, so instead the line is held by the many wraps of the prussik knot. This effectively gives you more use of the total rope strength, by removing the loss you'd get from having the knot (whenever a knot is formed in a bight at the end of the rope, we accept that the total strength is lowered by 20 to 30 percent).

2. It acts as a loading force indicator (a dynamometer). If the main line is loaded either staticly with such weight, or more likely dynamically with an impact; and the prussik slips on the rope (slack is pulled through it); it indicates that roughly 7.5kN to 9kN was loaded on the line. By only pulling through no more than a foot of slack with this setup, if the rope slips down under a force, the weight is being held at that point by the the prussik knot AND the original anchor line knot, maintaining full strength.

(you don't want to put a huge amount of slack in the line, as any force over 7.5kN to 9kN would pull ALL of this slack out, lengthening the line and possibly damaging the rope through heat built by friction as it passes through the prussik knot).


Happy Climbing =D

Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =)
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Re: rope work
<Reply # 209 on 10/10/2010 4:53 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Question: Rope Protection?

Should I go for something like this
http://www.rei.com/product/719270

Or can I make my own for cheaper?


I've used 6' of 3/8" galvanized steel chain but that stuff is too heavy to carry more than a short walk.

"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis...
Therrin 

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Re: rope work
<Reply # 210 on 10/11/2010 5:47 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Make it yourself.

Out here in the outdoors and climbing stores they have what's called "tubular webbing". 1" tubular webbing is typically cut with a heated blade ropecutter. So the ends are usually sealed together, but if you cut it with normal scissors, you'll notice that you can splay the ends "apart" because it is truly tubular webbing, in terms of construction.

You have two options with it.

1: You can take 1" tubular webbing and thread it onto your rope, punch a hole near the end of the webbing and attatch a grommet. Then use a small piece of prussik to clip to that grommet at the end of the tubular webbing. This way you can use whatever length of rope protection sleeve you want, and slide it to wherever you need it on the line, the rope actually is travelling through the middle of it.

2: Use 2" tubular webbing. Cut it open all down the length of one side, then sew 1/2" strips of velcro along one inside edge and one outside edge (lengthwise), and then instead of threading the rope through it, you can just wrap it around and velcro it to itself to secure it anywhere on the rope you want it.

You can also do the grommet thing with the 2" webbing idea, in order to secure it on the line wherever you choose to have it.

(if anyone is confused what I mean by "tubular" webbing, say so and I'll post a picture)

Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =)
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Re: rope work
<Reply # 211 on 10/12/2010 12:57 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
@therrin: Good tip on the thimbles!
@vadder: I use old jeans...

"That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire
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Re: rope work
<Reply # 212 on 10/12/2010 1:53 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Therrin
Make it yourself.



Old garden hose works okay too.



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Therrin 

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Re: rope work
<Reply # 213 on 10/12/2010 3:00 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Yeah, anything like garden hose is totally cool.

I just like the tubular webbing because with the addition of the grommet and prussik you can place it where you want it.

And, as mentioned with chain... while garden hose isn't as heavy as chain, it's far heavier than tubular webbing, and considerably cheaper, and less bulky to carry.

In fact, for added protection you can use a 1" piece of tube-web, with a 2" piece outside of that. That gives you excellent abrasion and edge protection, and even with all the bells and whistles I mentioned for it, it's about $5 to do it a couple feet long, doubled up.



Truly though you can use almost anything...shirts, sweaters, cats, cardboard, pieces of wood, pulley redirects, pieces of pipe... except most of them are bulkier and heavier than the tubular webbing.



OH I TOTALLY FORGOT!!!!

One of my buddies from my mineshaft exploring stuff uses those foam pool "noodles". He cuts one lengthwise down the entire length of it. They hold themselves closed naturally because the foam is stiff, although it is flexible on its long axis. You just slide the rope inside the slit open part and then you can fold it around edges and over sharp stuff or whatever. The pool noodles are also pretty lightweight, but they're also pretty bulky, and very brightly colored. I don't think you'd wanna end up hiking one in anywhere, or using it while infiltrating.
But if you're just using it for simple/normal means, and you aren't too far from your car, they work very well.

Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =)
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Re: rope work
<Reply # 214 on 10/12/2010 3:09 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Hey therrin if one were to rig a rope horizontally between two points how would loading it directly in the middle with another rope going vertically affect the load strength of the horizontal rope?

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Therrin 

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Re: rope work
<Reply # 215 on 10/12/2010 9:11 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
You're talking huge amounts of force exerted to the anchor points in that scenario. It's very similar to the setup we had in my avatar picture, called a "tyrolean traverse". You're simply suggesting running a pulley or a biner out on it and rappelling down off of it? Something like that?

Your anchor points have to be ABSOLUTELY SOLID for that. I've set these up several times to transfer equipment over waterfalls and in different places.

Lemme break it down...


As the angle between the anchor points increases, the tension (force) extereted on the rope increases.

Typically, when setting anchor points for a normal setup, you try to keep the angles between the anchor points as small as possible.

But when you're purposely setting them roughly 180 degrees apart, then loading the line between them, you vastly multiply the forces exerted to each anchor point.
Each anchor "side" for a tyrolean type of setup should have a MINIMUM of two anchor connections. You need the absolutely strongest connections you can find. If setting it in a rocky environement, the anchor points need to be "bombproof". If you don't have two anchor points on one side that equate to that level, you need several anchor points (possibly 3 to 5) that can dissipate the total load. Each additional equalized anchor point will allow less total force to be applied at each individual point.
In industrial applications, you'd want sturdy pipes, concreted into place, or anchor to large machines or stanchions or columns of some kind, but each side should also have a minimum of two of these as equalized anchor points.



Basically though, loading a relatively taut highline will force multiply at the anchors I believe at a factor of 5.
And that's only static loading. If you were to dynamically load it with a impact force ... well, there's alot of trig involved in that. Suffice it to say the force imparted to the anchor points with a dynamic loading scenario are GIGANTIC...

With almost any of this though, consider it as static loading, you need to figure out what weight is involved...then calculate the force applied to your anchor points. You need to be certain that your ROPE and all your connections (carabiners and such)_ are rated to accept that amount of force, along with a bit of buffer left over for sake of "slop" and saftey variable.


Was it an idle curiosity or do you have something in mind?


Here's me on a tyro:

We were using a 3/4" rope. And I believe we had 3 or 4 anchor spots on each side.

Oh, I forgot to mention. To do this kinda thing you need to remove almost all the slack out of the taut-line. You can't just pull it out by tugging on it. You'd pull it to what *looks* tight, but as soon as you loaded it it'd sag tremendously. You need to tension the line using whats called mechanical advantage; basically a system of pulleys set on the line at one side in a 3:1 or 4:1 or 5:1 system which you'll use to tighten, adjust, and retighten the rope till it's relatively taut.
That in and of itself exerts quite a bit of force on the anchor points, and without a load-spring testing device of some kind it's really impossible to measure. You kinda have to wing it.

That's why we have separate backup anchor points, with ropes attatched to each additional anchor point on each side, controlled by backup belayers with lines attatched to me coming from each side.
That way if the main line were to fail, I'd fall a short distance to hang inbetween the two belayer's line's, and either ascend up one of them or be lowered down.

Tyro's are particularly dangerous. I've rigged small scale one's using 7/16" rope and a 3:1 pulley system to make them taut. Then used it to transfer myself and my equipment over short gaps of about 20ft or so.

Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =)
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Re: rope work
<Reply # 216 on 10/12/2010 9:20 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Therrin
Was it an idle curiosity or do you have something in mind?


PM'd.

Thanks for the info.

"Aint nothin' to it but to do it"
Therrin 

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Re: rope work
<Reply # 217 on 10/12/2010 9:41 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
No prob. Lol. I'm tempted to create a thread "Ask Therrin questions about rope work". =P

Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =)
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Re: rope work
<Reply # 218 on 10/13/2010 1:09 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
The engineer in me wants to point out that if the rope was completely horizontal, it would have to be infinitely strong. The more it sags the weaker it can be. I could work out the math, but for the slight bends that you will end up having I'd say an order of magnitude would be good.

Therrin has more real world experience, so I trust his 5 fold measurement.

When we slacklined we usually used biners as pulleys for a 4:1 advantage or so, and it would have been nice to have it tighter...

@Therrin: Have you ever used come-alongs or ratchet-straps for highlines?

In other news, I finally got to play with my rappel rack out in the real world and it's fantastic. Much nicer than a figure-8 / atc.

"That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire
Therrin 

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Re: rope work
<Reply # 219 on 10/13/2010 1:10 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Mindhacker:

It's far better to use pulleys rather than biners when you're tightening down a system like that. Two reasons.
And, as you mentioned, the mathematics behind it doesn't always suggest that what we do is actually possible. This is why I said "To do this kinda thing you need to remove almost all the slack out of the taut-line." That's "almost all", but not all. It is expected to sag a little. There's a formula for that as well.

1. First reason, why you should use pulleys instead of biners.
The diameter of the sheeve of the pulley should always be at least four times the diameter of the rope diameter. This is for the same reason that I suggested using rope thimbles. When not maintaining a 4:1 ratio in this specific aspect, you WILL degrade the strenth of the rope.
Also, when purchasing pulleys, you should size them to your largest rope, or the largest size you plan to use with them. So while it's fine to use a 1/2" rope with a 5/8" rated pulley, it's not okay the other way around.

Using biners instead of pulleys gives you a really great chance of ruining your rope's original highest static strength. Once you tension the rope over biners while tightening, so that the outside bend fibers are stretched further than the inside bend fibers, and they're run through a series of biners which impart this effect on them, you've just overstretched/understretched fibers within the same areas of rope. This is a permanent effect when generated under force.
Your rope will never have the same original rated tensile strength, it will always be somewhat less, and increasingly so when you do that with it, till one day when it will just snap.


2. I lied when I said you couldn't tell how much force you were loading a system with using mechanical advantage. You can actually get a rough estimate by using pulleys. You calculate your body weight (the force you are pulling against it) to the ratio of force you are creating using the pulleys.

Those of you with higher mathematics sensibilities will feel at odds with this statement and run for your calculators and notebooks and a stack of pencils. Remember its just a ROUGH ESTIMATE. You're just getting a ballpark idea. And at the same time you aren't permanently degrading the strength of your rope.


Also, mindhacker... it's entirely possible I could be wrong with the 5x force multiplier with the tyrolean stuff. That's the number that sticks in my head though. I have a whole data layout about forces generated in a tyrolean and I can't find the dang thing.
I can tell you its at *least* 5x though.


I've actually got a Petzl "oscillante" pulley sitting on my bed here. I think it was like $15. It accepts 7 to 11mm rope, with a WLL of 2kN of each leg, 4kN off the top axis, and a tensile rating of 15kN.
It's more of a 2:1 or 3:1 rating for sheeve diameter to rope diameter, not the 4:1 that is best suited to pulley operations for a lower limit. But it's also extremely lightweight. Swing sides to allow attatchment at any point on the rope, was inexpensive, and has an excellent strength to weight ratio.


I also have an older style Petzl Rescue pulley:


And a minitraxion, which is a combo pulley, anti-return pulley, and ascending device:


And a Petzl Ultralegere, which is basically a pulley sheeve you slide onto a biner with a flat lower axis, or a rounded (pear shaped) axis, to create a pulley using the biner. They are VERY lightweight, but have a WLL of 1kN, and accepts ropes from 7 to 13mm:


I'm looking at picking up two of the Petzl Twins, to use in a block & tackle style to set up a haul system.


And then for heavy rigging applications I have a steel Block, which weighs 5lbs, can be used with up to 3/4" rope, has a WLL of 2 tons, and is swing-sided with a captured screw-pin, and has a sheeve diameter of 2 3/4":



For more information on pulley types and use, please check out this great page:
http://www.hawills.com/pulleys.htm

Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =)
UER Forum > Archived UE Main > rope work (Viewed 15245 times)
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