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 pNINJAz
 
Location: St. Paul MN
Gender: Male
Momento Mori
 |  |  |  | Re: rope work
<Reply # 60 on 9/17/2009 9:15 AM >
|  | | | Posted by junkyard
I don't ever think it's a bad idea to anything. If I do, a few more brews and a few assholes will talk me into it. Overcomplicating things can just as easily lead to one's demise as poor planning and not doing things safe. There's plenty of places I could have brought or used gear. I could have died or got VERY hurt if I fell. So yes gear could have saved me then. But setting all that crap and retrieving it could have made things riskier. Life's a risk, this hobby is what you make it,and in my case is sometimes pretty risky. I consider the tradeoffs, a boring life and not knowing what lies beyond. We've dug out collapses in dodgy mines with no airflow and O2 in the mid teens. But where there's a beer, there's a way. And when death is between me and that cooler in the truck.......have you ever seen me pass up a cooler full of cold ones? I pride myself in knowing our limits and pushing them, and above all, always getting the boys back safe. It's always a crapshoot. But a guy could stay safe all his life and still have a nuclear bomb land next to his house and have the HE blow the crap outa the place and leave a 30ft deep crater in his yard. It has happened. I say live your life, do what you think is right, be safe enough. But being safe is a double edged sword, remember that. Remember Murphy's Law and the KISS principal. You'll do alright. I personally have no desire to climb a crane because it doesn't get me anywhere I can't see otherwise, except higher up, and I can do that. But rapping off that would be cool. I weigh the pros and cons and then figure the chance of my daughter growing up without a dad and then decide if it's worth it. Do what you think is right and what you think is safe, but be educated, so you can make that determination.
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I think i love you
Wherever you go, go with all your heart. |
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kowalski
   
| | Re: rope work
<Reply # 61 on 9/28/2009 6:53 PM >
| | | | Posted by bfinan0
5. Again, rather obvious. As long as it doesn't require doing 198 feet worth of chin-ups...this is what one climber told me as advice, and I knew instantly there was something rotten in those physics.
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A 30' ascent can hurt like hell if you're not ready for it, or if you don't have your kit sized right or your technique practiced to perfection (we're talking about efficiency here, and efficiency doesn't just come in a box). If it takes you the first thirty feet to work out how to ascend efficiently without putting the bulk of the effort on your arms, as it does for me when I go to do this stuff once every couple of years, you aren't going to make it sixty feet, let alone two hundred.
Managing with one or no practice session to clear thirty feet with this gear is a no brainer, anyone who isn't seriously obese can pull that off (although as indicated it will hurt). But as many people have already told you, you're talking about a much more significant vertical distance that even someone in very good condition would have some trouble to pull out of their ass without significant practice and training on the equipment.
| Firstly, there are no caves around here (except of the man-made variety, and at that only this one), and secondly rock climbers need to rappel too, don't they? |
Yes, rock climbers will generally know how to rig for rappel. But your local gym and day-trippers generally won't bother with ascending, because they climb the rock, not the air. You might be able to find someone in that community who is comfortable with it, but it's not a skill or experience that's prevalent. To consistently find climbers with good knowledge of ascending technique and gear, you're going to have to talk with a much more specialized breed of big wall climber or alpinist, with vertical rescue personnel, or with serious cavers.
| Firstly, there are no caves around here |
I very much doubt this is the case. Even if there are no caves, there are most certainly cavers. The Niagara Frontier chapter of the National Speleological Society trips down to Virginia and elsewhere on a rather frequent basis, and no doubt has a number of local projects that it keeps quiet about.
Take it from someone (me) who wouldn't dream of trying to jumar half your intended distance right now -- this is a bad idea. Until you know the gear, know how to rig it, and know what it feels like to climb 30', 50', 100', you have no capacity to assess whether you're capable of doing 200' without dying.
But if you don't want to listen to anyone on this point, at least learn how to switch out to rappel in the middle of ascending without falling to your death. And get comfortable with it -- comfortable enough that you'll be able to do it when you're exhausted and terrified and your gear has jammed 75' up that rope. Do us and yourself at least that favour, alright?
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\/adder
  
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| |  | Re: rope work
<Reply # 62 on 9/28/2009 7:26 PM >
| | | | Posted by kowalski
(all good infos)
Do us and yourself at least that favour, alright?
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I didn't bother to check your username until after I read the post. I just glanced at the avatar and with all this serious business talk I assumed you were Jester.
Your Avatars
they are
similar
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 63 on 9/28/2009 7:38 PM >
| | | | Posted by kowalski
If it takes you the first thirty feet to work out how to ascend efficiently without putting the bulk of the effort on your arms, as it does for me when I go to do this stuff once every couple of years, you aren't going to make it sixty feet, let alone two hundred. Managing with one or no practice session to clear thirty feet with this gear is a no brainer, anyone who isn't seriously obese can pull that off (although as indicated it will hurt).
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If we have anything on our side, it is engineering. We have developed a solution to the problem of ascending this massive distance, using ascenders and also a second rope of length 2n, routed through a pulley, with which the other explorers who would otherwise just be waiting in line to ascend can assist in the lifting; any force that they provide would be beneficial, and if they let go the physics of the situation result only in what was already going on before they started, a difficult ascent but no fall.
But as many people have already told you, you're talking about a much more significant vertical distance that even someone in very good condition would have some trouble to pull out of their ass without significant practice and training on the equipment.
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I'm having trouble even finding any other reports of ascending anything close to the corrected distance of 46-48m of rope in an urbex setting, underground; so the situation itself is somewhat uncharted it seems.
Yes, rock climbers will generally know how to rig for rappel. But your local gym and day-trippers generally won't bother with ascending, because they climb the rock, not the air. You might be able to find someone in that community who is comfortable with it, but it's not a skill or experience that's prevalent. To consistently find climbers with good knowledge of ascending technique and gear, you're going to have to talk with a much more specialized breed of big wall climber or alpinist, with vertical rescue personnel, or with serious cavers.
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Agreed entirely; rock climbers have been useless in providing any advice for this undertaking, except that it will be difficult.
I very much doubt this is the case. Even if there are no caves, there are most certainly cavers. The Niagara Frontier chapter of the National Speleological Society trips down to Virginia and elsewhere on a rather frequent basis, and no doubt has a number of local projects that it keeps quiet about.
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It is reasonably well known if there are caves in an area, as for there to be caves there must be karst topography, which the Rochester area doesn't have (although Cattaraugus/Allegany counties southwest of us and Schoharie east of us do)
Take it from someone (me) who wouldn't dream of trying to jumar half your intended distance right now -- this is a bad idea. Until you know the gear, know how to rig it, and know what it feels like to climb 30', 50', 100', you have no capacity to assess whether you're capable of doing 200' without dying.
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But if you don't want to listen to anyone on this point,
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Why would I have posted if i Wasn't looking for advice, and didn't want to listen? The idea and plan are, as you might hope, evolving significantly from what it looked like 3 weeks ago.
at least learn how to switch out to rappel in the middle of ascending without falling to your death. And get comfortable with it -- comfortable enough that you'll be able to do it when you're exhausted and terrified and your gear has jammed 75' up that rope. Do us and yourself at least that favour, alright?
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I think this one is obvious, always having sufficiently many exit strategies from a situation where things can go absolutely to shit so easily. If I wasn't planning on living to see November, I would have tried this already, rather than giving it months of thought and seeking advice on how it can be done as reasonably as possible.
[last edit 9/28/2009 7:39 PM by bfinan0 - edited 1 times]
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micro
 
Gender: Male
Slowly I turned
| | Re: rope work
<Reply # 64 on 9/28/2009 7:53 PM >
| | | | Posted by bfinan0
If we have anything on our side, it is engineering. |
Famous last words if ever there were any.
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 65 on 9/28/2009 8:00 PM >
| | | | Posted by micro
Famous last words if ever there were any.
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As an engineering student, I'm only half-offended, as it is quite true, whether I like it or not.
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terapr0
Location: Sauga City
Gender: Male
www . tohellandback . net
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 66 on 9/28/2009 11:08 PM >
| | | | I'm an engineer and industrial designer who also knows a *bit* about SRT, and I think you sound like a dangerous fool with almost nothing on his side, especially "engineering".
As others have suggested, get yourself a copy of the book "On Rope", study it obsessively for months, buy at least 2 mechanical ascenders and a real static climbing rope, practice the shit out of your technique from trees and whatever buildings you can safely access without getting arrested, and theres still the chance you may get seriously injured, or die. Rappelling and then ascending 200 vertical feet is nothing to fuck around with. Even with proper technique and use of equipment they say that you'll exert roughly the same amount of effort ascending 200ft as you would climbing 20 flights of stairs. throw poor technique and non-ideal equipment like prussik hitches into the equation, and that could easily go up to 30-40 flights of stairs. I'm in reasonably good shape and still get pretty out of breath after climbing the 22stories to the top of my own apartment building. You better practice and be prepared to take breaks because i guarantee you're going to be exhausted like never before in your life if you do make it up to the top.
I'd also advise to ideally buy a 3rd ascender or at least have an extra prussik cord on your harness to use as an emergency quick attachment safety in case something jams and you do need to switch to rappel midway - this is a fairly advanced technique and one that can turn deadly fucking quick (like REAL fucking quick!) if you're not familiar with how to perform it safely.
If you're planning on using a 2nd rope to help assist your ascent (which I wouldn't even recommend...use it as a backup safety if need be, but getting hauled at the same time your climbing might get awkward real quick), make god damned sure not to have anyone hauling on the line while you rappel. If you're using a figure 8 descender, any slack in the rope above your head can make the figure 8 invert in which case the rope will snag around the neck and form a girth hitch, essentially locking you in place on the rope. so-called "rescue" figure 8's with ears will help you avoid this problem, but its still a very real possibility if you aren't careful and use the setup you've been discussing. It's possible to get out of that situation, but again, it requires a keen understanding of the proper technique, which is not even close to easy when you're cold and exhausted.
I'm by NO means an expert on SRT practices (not even fucking close), and I'm not saying that it cant be done, I just think you need to approach this with a much more serious attitude, and lose the whole "well I'm an engineer and therefore invincible" routine. All the mechanical theories and school textbooks in the world arent going to help you when you go over the edge and its just you, a thin piece of rope and your equipment.
Be careful, and take some good pictures if you do decide to do it. Good luck.
just my $0.02
www.tohellandback.net |
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Loki
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Gender: Male
| | Re: rope work
<Reply # 67 on 9/29/2009 1:46 AM >
| | | | Don't for get to have a knife somewhere you can reach it THIS IS IMPORTANT.
Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank | Wank |
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rob.i.am
  
Gender: Male
Carpe noctum
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 68 on 9/29/2009 3:41 AM >
| | | | Oh and tie a stopper knot so you don't rappel off the end of the rope.
Or leave a note willing me your camera and shit if things don't work out.
edit: Camera and shit will likely be broken. Tie the stopper knot.
[last edit 9/29/2009 3:41 AM by rob.i.am - edited 1 times]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rob666/ |
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 69 on 9/29/2009 4:42 AM >
| | | | Posted by rob666
Oh and tie a stopper knot so you don't rappel off the end of the rope.
Or leave a note willing me your camera and shit if things don't work out.
edit: Camera and shit will likely be broken. Tie the stopper knot.
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I'm getting out of the way. The exploration may happen sometime in the next few years, or it more likely may not. But I will not be leading it anymore, and no other members of UER will be involved. Thanks for the advice you gave, some of it will be quite useful to whoever will plan this attempt in my place.
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junkyard
Location: LaCrosse, WI
Gender: Male
Strategic Beer Command where the metal hits the meat.
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 70 on 9/30/2009 12:58 AM >
| | | | Ditto on stopper knots. If you are not sure or know for a fact your rope does not touch bottom, tie one in. You can't grab the rope fast enough or strong enough to keep from that big fall. And Slim Jim uses that frog system, I never liked it and he has a hard time getting started without enough weight on the rope. Someone usually has to hold it down wntil he has enough rope under him. I use a Petzel Ascension, the right handed blue one. And a Petzel Mini Traxion. It works somewhat like a Croll, but has a pulley and the rope is pulled through by your left hadd and over your shoulder. It works great, except when being too efficient and moving too far. I got one of the safety lines jammed in the device and almost had to switch to rappel and go back down. Luckily Akron had a bayonet he sent down to me to un jam it. Yes you probably should have one on you. It was 17% Oxygen in that mine and you really need to keep your head. Practice practice practice. Practice drunk. Practice in the dark. Just practice. In the dark came in handy when rapping off Devil's Tower at sunset once. We had 2 flashlights between 5 guys and finally got down between midinght and 1am. Atomic and Asylunt happened to see us about half way down and came to greet us at the bottom. That was a blast. But I will tell you that I am pretty good at my rig, but over 100 ft in one shot takes it's toll on you. And in bad air it makes it worse. But I still hold the world record for the 60 ft of Cobb's cave after a 12er. And that's even competing with some of the slow sober guys. I swear by mechanical ascenders, prussiks are for emergencies in my opinion, I carry the good stuff because I use it. And real rock climbers think rappeling is dangerous or a bit scarry in my experience.
I drink gasoline for breakfeast and beer for dinner!
Any problem can be licked with a case of beer and a few sticks of dynamite.
Strategic Beer Command ruling the desert since 1995 http://www.strategic-beer-command.com |
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dsankt
Location: live and in the fresh
| | | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 71 on 9/30/2009 2:13 AM >
| | | | Posted by bfinan0
I'm having trouble even finding any other reports of ascending anything close to the corrected distance of 46-48m of rope in an urbex setting, underground; so the situation itself is somewhat uncharted it seems.
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Not at all, plenty of people do this. The calgary/bc folk are doing mine trips with reasonable frequency covering larger vertical distances than that and many of the uk geezers are doing similarly.
~50m, Manchester
50m of a 200m deep mine shaft, BC
the top of the shaft which is full of precariously balanced rotting timber beams:
sleepycity.net: watch out for the third rail baby, that shit is high voltage. urbex and urban exploration photography |
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dsankt
Location: live and in the fresh
| | | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 72 on 9/30/2009 2:31 AM >
| | | | Additionally I'm seconding Micro's suggestion of the On Rope book. Cavers have been doing this stuff for decades, learn from their experience. A frog system will get you up just fine though it will be a fun slog. A rope walker system though quicker requires more gear, more knowledge, more care in doing a change over (asc to desc and the reverse) and longer to setup.
Were I in your situation I'd go with a a modified frog system with a hand asc, a croll (chest) and a pantin (foot). It'll be faster and less tiring than a traditional frog system to, with the added bonus the last person doesn't have to self feed the rope. Setup should be pretty clear from these notes:
http://www.cavediggers.com/Pantin.pdf
A tip I learned from a very experienced french caver - put a short loop of cord through the top hole of your hand ascender and stick your wrist through it. Then you can put both hands on the rope and overhand it as you go up. Makes life far easier than holding the hand ascender.
sleepycity.net: watch out for the third rail baby, that shit is high voltage. urbex and urban exploration photography |
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 73 on 9/30/2009 2:38 AM >
| | | | Posted by dsankt
Additionally I'm seconding Micro's suggestion of the On Rope book. Cavers have been doing this stuff for decades, learn from their experience. A frog system will get you up just fine though it will be a fun slog. A rope walker system though quicker requires more gear, more knowledge, more care in doing a change over (asc to desc and the reverse) and longer to setup.
Were I in your situation I'd go with a a modified frog system with a hand asc, a croll (chest) and a pantin (foot). It'll be faster and less tiring than a traditional frog system to, with the added bonus the last person doesn't have to self feed the rope. Setup should be pretty clear from these notes:
http://www.cavediggers.com/Pantin.pdf
A tip I learned from a very experienced french caver - put a short loop of cord through the top hole of your hand ascender and stick your wrist through it. Then you can put both hands on the rope and overhand it as you go up. Makes life far easier than holding the hand ascender.
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I know from how some people reacted to my ideas this will seem extremely surprising, but this is remarkably close to what I was planning to do before I abandoned the attempt.
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 74 on 9/30/2009 5:30 PM >
| | | | Posted by bfinan0
I'm getting out of the way. The exploration may happen sometime in the next few years, or it more likely may not. But I will not be leading it anymore, and no other members of UER will be involved. Thanks for the advice you gave, some of it will be quite useful to whoever will plan this attempt in my place.
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One more revision: the plan is now almost as different as it could possibly be, consisting of a series of 17 or more meetings and practices, 13 of them before even attempting anything underground, and the last 4 on subterranean heights increasing from zero to 148 feet, prior to the exploration itself:
Drainwhale 24: meet with any who think the exploration is possible, decide on new leader, start to coordinate with people having the proper experience
Drainwhale 25-36: Aboveground practice, most likely in climbing gyms, on increasing scale from 8 feet to whatever is possible
Drainwhale 37-38: Underground practice on much smaller heights than the 148 feet of the tunnels
Drainwhale 39: Practice descent and ascent into the deep tunnel itself, without actually exploring anything
Drainwhale 40: The exploration itself, in the form that it would have happened this month, but with much more adequate preparation
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AnAppleSnail
Location: Charlotte, NC
Gender: Male
ALL the flashlights!
| | | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 75 on 9/30/2009 5:51 PM >
| | | | Posted by bfinan0
17 or more meetings and practices
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Sweet - no matter the plan, practice makes better. Good luck, I'd join in if I were closer.
Achievement Unlocked
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trent
I'm Trent! Get Bent!
Location: Drainwhale hunting
Gender: Male
Not on UER anymore.
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 76 on 9/30/2009 7:00 PM >
| | | | Posted by bfinan0
I'm getting out of the way. The exploration may happen sometime in the next few years, or it more likely may not. But I will not be leading it anymore, and no other members of UER will be involved. Thanks for the advice you gave, some of it will be quite useful to whoever will plan this attempt in my place.
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I don't think anyone is going to attempt your plan in your place because that's essentially the hard way in. If you want these tunnels so bad, why not use the other entrance that is only appx. 50-60 feet that I know you know. BTW, the camera's aren't for security, they're fixed on the water level scale and the exit sluice gate level. As long as you're not dancing around in front of the cameras or there around a rain event there's nothing to worry about. Also, the highway construction is almost complete so none of that activity will be there either. You could potentially be in this week if you wanted to.
He who rules the underground, rules the city above.
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 77 on 9/30/2009 7:32 PM >
| | | | Posted by trent
I don't think anyone is going to attempt your plan in your place because that's essentially the hard way in. If you want these tunnels so bad, why not use the other entrance that is only appx. 50-60 feet that I know you know. BTW, the camera's aren't for security, they're fixed on the water level scale and the exit sluice gate level. As long as you're not dancing around in front of the cameras or there around a rain event there's nothing to worry about. Also, the highway construction is almost complete so none of that activity will be there either. You could potentially be in this week if you wanted to.
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O RLY?
I fail at urbex then...i thought i was killing 3 birds with one rope, bypassing the 4 miles that were already explored, escaping the security cameras, and making it only a single climb, not 4 climbs. Time to forget about everything I've come up with for the last month...dammit!
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dsankt
Location: live and in the fresh
| | | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 78 on 9/30/2009 8:35 PM >
| | | | Sounds like fun, shame I'm not around.
sleepycity.net: watch out for the third rail baby, that shit is high voltage. urbex and urban exploration photography |
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 79 on 11/6/2009 3:36 PM >
| | | | My plan that became an ossuary of contention to the drainwhale project is long gone, but I think this serves as a useful footnote, in the interest of finding the "right" way to have gone about such an endeavour:
On my way to class today, I came upon some city/county contractors preparing to enter a sewer that had clogged overnight, through a ladderless manhole cover 44 feet down. The mechanism in use appears to be very close to this:
http://www.chiefsu...ned_Space/10023968
It works by having one worker remain aboveground while raising and lowering the others (of which there are at least two) by turning a crank with obvious mechanical advantage, requiring hundreds of turns at a clearly manageable torque to raise a climber from -44 feet underground.
One can only guess that a larger version of this apparatus must exist for reaching a depth of -148 feet, as it clearly presents itself as a safer (and far more costly) replacement for the rappeling and rope work discussed in the previous 70 posts.
(obviously, this would also have required a change in entry point, using the manhole directly above the dropshaft, rather than the side tunnel flowing horizontally into the shaft)
[last edit 11/6/2009 3:45 PM by bfinan0 - edited 1 times]
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