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Server Time:
2024-04-24 15:58:26
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 Dav
  
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Gender: Male
Like fun, but different.
 |  |  |  |  | Re: rope work
<Reply # 120 on 4/20/2010 11:27 PM >
|  | | | Therrin, I've got a PDF floating around somewhere that did some testing on the Spelegyca. (I'm sure you could find it on the NSS forum)
I seem to remember they came to the conclusion that a homemade cow's tail was just as good (better in fact because it's the right length for *you*) if you used a figure-8 at your harness and a barrel knot on either end.
I don't understand, you don't have a croll? Were you borrowing someone's frog setup?
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\/adder
  
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 121 on 4/20/2010 11:31 PM >
| | | | I use 3/8" now and it suffices granted it's not kermantle.
I go for the cheapest method\gear possible, not the wisest course of action, but whatever works. Right now rappelling wise I'm looking at a few stories at most.
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
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Dav
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Gender: Male
Like fun, but different.
| | | | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 122 on 4/20/2010 11:46 PM >
| | | | Dear Sir Vadder (The Ever Vicarious)
I write to you concerning your current rope of choice... While somewhat hesitant to question your experiences, it behooves me to mention the following merely as a warning but not necessarily nagging unwanted advice:
I saw someone cut through a loaded kernmantle line with a plastic McDonalds spoon once.
Food for thought on that sharp edge you rigging against.
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OpenTrackRacer
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 123 on 4/21/2010 3:20 AM >
| | | | I'll second Dav's comments on the braided rope. Yeow!
Therrin was using my ascending gear (much faster than I did!). The Spelegyca seems to work quite well although the short cowstail is a little too short for most mine exploring uses. There was some concern as to it's energy absorbing ability if it was attached to two anchors at once but as a cowstail and fall prevention (rather than protection) device it's nice... compact and durable.
That said I have some Sterling Fusion Nano 9.2mm dynamic rope that I'm going to tie into a new equal length cowstail for the future.
Underground Explorers
California Abandoned Mine Exploration
http://www.undergroundexplorers.com |
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\/adder
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 124 on 4/21/2010 3:29 AM >
| | | | 15 cents a foot
versus
90 cents a foot
for something I'll use once in a blue moon on a limited budget means a lot.
I know the risks and I retired one section because it was a bit getting chewed up. As long as I keep it for SRT only and don't fall on it: it'll hold the weight no problem even with packweight I'm under 130lbs and it's rated for 190.
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
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terapr0
  
Location: Sauga City
Gender: Male
www . tohellandback . net
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 125 on 4/21/2010 3:44 AM >
| | | | that rope looks like shit....its rated for 190lbs without knots in it. They also say right on the packaging that its not to be used for live loads. I've got almost 300ft of that rope, and while its great for general purpose stuff, there's no way in hell I'd climb on it. The teeth on ascender cams can't be friendly to that stuff...I'd be really worried about it shredding or just tearing through the cam, especially if you ever put some shock load on it.
Not saying that it doesn't work, because you've obviously used it before without dieing, but a decent rope isnt expensive...I paid like $169 for 50m of 11mm static that I feel comfortable trusting my life to. 3/8 utility rope isn't for climbing.
www.tohellandback.net |
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 126 on 4/21/2010 3:57 AM >
| | | | Posted by terapr0
that rope looks like shit....its rated for 190lbs without knots in it. They also say right on the packaging that its not to be used for live loads. I've got almost 300ft of that rope, and while its great for general purpose stuff, there's no way in hell I'd climb on it. The teeth on ascender cams can't be friendly to that stuff...I'd be really worried about it shredding or just tearing through the cam, especially if you ever put some shock load on it.
Not saying that it doesn't work, because you've obviously used it before without dieing, but a decent rope isnt expensive...I paid like $169 for 50m of 11mm static that I feel comfortable trusting my life to. 3/8 utility rope isn't for climbing.
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What's your opinion on 5/8 and 11/16 inch utility ropes, particularly for stuff like rope ladders?
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terapr0
Location: Sauga City
Gender: Male
www . tohellandback . net
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 127 on 4/21/2010 4:13 AM >
| | | | I have a 20ft rope ladder (with dowel steps) made of some Canadian Tire utility rope (I forget the exact diameter, but its rated for like 300lbs or something)that I went to all the trouble of making before realizing that it was bulky, heavy and pretty fucking useless. It cost a bit of $$$, but I bought a real 11mm rope, some ascenders and other misc SRT equipment that is SO much easier to use, not to mention safer. If you're only going >20ft I guess a utility rope ladder will work well enough, especially the ones that use rope rungs (a lot lighter than wood), but for anything higher they're just stupid and dangerous. All the knots take a lot of strength out of the rope, and unless your a super lightweight (I'm not), it can get pretty sketchy. My advice: buy some real rope...even at $0.70/ft thats less than $50 for 50ft of the stuff, and you can often save a bit if you buy at least 50m of the stuff. Spend the extra $50 not to die unnecessarily...your life's probably worth it
www.tohellandback.net |
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 128 on 4/21/2010 4:55 AM >
| | | | Posted by terapr0
I have a 20ft rope ladder (with dowel steps) made of some Canadian Tire utility rope (I forget the exact diameter, but its rated for like 300lbs or something)that I went to all the trouble of making before realizing that it was bulky, heavy and pretty fucking useless. It cost a bit of $$$, but I bought a real 11mm rope, some ascenders and other misc SRT equipment that is SO much easier to use, not to mention safer. If you're only going >20ft I guess a utility rope ladder will work well enough, especially the ones that use rope rungs (a lot lighter than wood), but for anything higher they're just stupid and dangerous. All the knots take a lot of strength out of the rope, and unless your a super lightweight (I'm not), it can get pretty sketchy. My advice: buy some real rope...even at $0.70/ft thats less than $50 for 50ft of the stuff, and you can often save a bit if you buy at least 50m of the stuff. Spend the extra $50 not to die unnecessarily...your life's probably worth it
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I was actually thinking more along the lines of just getting (back) up 6-15 feet at a 75° angle, in a certain common and annoying drain feature in my area. So not even to protect against a possibility of falling, just to make it easier to get back out of these slides in one try.
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Therrin
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 129 on 4/21/2010 4:59 AM >
| | | | Mmmmm where to start.
Yes, I was using OpenTrackRacer's frog setup. After he used it to ascend he clipped it to the line and dropped it back down to me. I was very fond of it.
As to the rope being rated to 190lbs. If that's its WLL then you're really pushing it even if you only weigh 130lbs with your gear. (dude, how much do you weigh without your gear? seriously?)
Here are some interesting statistics that EVERYONE should be familiar with, when doing "rope work".
Knot Strength
NO Knot 100%
Double Fisherman's 65-70%
Bowline 70-75%
Water Knot 60-70%
Figure 8 75-80%
Clove Hitch 60-65%
Fisherman's 60-65%
Overhand 60-65%
So depending on what knot you're tying, at most you'll only retain 80% of the ropes original strength effectiveness for static loading characteristics.
Figuring that you use the Figure 8 knot (not talking about the descender), of a 190lb test rope you're only retaining 152lbs at the BEST; and only 114lbs to 133lbs as your typical median range otherwise. That puts you dangerously close to unsafe working load for that rope, in return for being "easier to carry".
Ease of carry will quickly be negated in the instance that your rope snaps. Just saying.
At the very least you should be carrying some 1" tubular webbing to run your line through the middle of for abrasion protection on corners/edges and such.
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
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Therrin
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 130 on 4/21/2010 5:05 AM >
| | | | On the other note,
5/8" and 11/16" line is very heavy, and bulky (as mentioned). How long of a rope ladder do you need???
Running a single line with a lightweight simple harness (not a full blown climbing harness with gearloops and such), and a simple prussik cord loops for ascending, should be lighter and less bulky in weight in "most" cases.
I've got a very handy aiding ladder (etrier) which comes with its own connected stuff sack. When stuffed it takes about as much space up as a can of soda, and weighs about a third of that. When you need it it pops out of the sack and falls down to its full length and has......I think 6 rungs on it.
O.T.R. saw me use it to climb up a beam down inside one of the horizontal drifts we were exploring. It's not extremely easy to get your feet in the next rungs of it since they aren't stiff, but it does work in a pinch. I also use it as my "footloop" for ascending at the moment, as I can choose the rung I wish to use which is an inherent 'adjustable length' built in. (as seen in picture)
BTW, besides the spelegyca, petzl also has the energyca. I thought the spelegyca worked very nicely for my size and length of throw while jugging up the line, and its also sewn extremely strong and looks to be long-wearing. I don't have a problem using the stuff I make myself out of 1" webbing and cordage, but I really liked the way the spelegyca is set up.
[last edit 4/21/2010 5:42 AM by Therrin - edited 1 times]
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
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\/adder
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 131 on 4/21/2010 6:35 AM >
| | | | 115-125 depending on clothing and hydration. I try to minimize weight for the climb, right now it's a monetary restriction that keeps me from getting better gear (and having to ditch $150 worth of rope would suck a lot.)
I should add I never tie off and rappel on a completely vertical rope, I use SRT to get up to things I wouldn't otherwise be able to get up to, not to get down a mine shaft or anything. (ladders 25' off the ground and such)
So the force of the rope isn't directly downward it's tied off on one end thrown up and over (usually) the struts that hold the ladder onto say a water tower and then I ascend up.
Not sure how that works in relation to the whole breaking strength but whatever seems to work works.
Lecture aside, I'm not going to stop taking risks and I'll upgrade when I can or when I find a reason too, but for now I'm not looking at using rope to get up anything more than I can throw a nerf vortex knockoff up to.
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
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OpenTrackRacer
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 132 on 4/21/2010 6:39 AM >
| | | | A 25' fall can easily be fatal. Heck, that goes even for a 6-10' fall. However, it's your neck that's being risked so bang on.
Underground Explorers
California Abandoned Mine Exploration
http://www.undergroundexplorers.com |
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Shane
Moderator
Location: Bronx, NY
Gender: Male
| |  |  | | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 133 on 4/21/2010 3:47 PM >
| | | | Yeh, fancy foottapes are overrated. A bit of 6mm spectra with a double figure 8 will do you just fine for frog system and can be adjusted to various body geometries. It's also way lighter and easier to pack away.
"Because there's no possibility of real disaster, real risk, we're left with no chance for real salvation. Real elation. Real excitement. Joy. Discovery. Invention. The laws that keep us safe, these same laws condemn us to boredom. Without access to true chaos, we'll never have true peace. Unless everything can get worse, it won't get any better." -Chuck Palahniuk |
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1vertical1
| | Re: rope work
<Reply # 134 on 4/21/2010 4:21 PM >
| | | | I will put it simply, if you're putting your life on the line it should be rated for life safety. If you're using it to protect yourself in the event of a fall, it should be fall rated. Either way if you are using ropes for these purposes, get the right training and practice lots. Ignorance is not a high angle technique and luck only happens occasionally.
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bfinan0
Location: Rochester, NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 135 on 4/21/2010 4:25 PM >
| | | | Posted by OpenTrackRacer
A 25' fall can easily be fatal. Heck, that goes even for a 6-10' fall. However, it's your neck that's being risked so bang on.
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At least for the situation I was discussing, it wouldn't be a fall, it would be a slide down smooth concrete. I have (intentionally) "fell" down this before, and am just looking for an easier way to get back up out of it the way I came instead of having to go all the way to the end of the system to get out.
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OpenTrackRacer
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 136 on 4/21/2010 5:05 PM >
| | | | Sorry, I was responding to the comments by TheVicariousVadder. Still, a 75° slope is mighty steep. Just think about what would happen if you were near the top (going up or down) and the rope failed. Sliding when you're prepared is one thing but an unexpected fall is totally different.
50' of 11mm PMI pit rope runs about $35. Descenders and ascenders can be found cheap, as can harnesses. I guess it just boils down to how much you think your life is worth.
OTR
Posted by bfinan0
At least for the situation I was discussing, it wouldn't be a fall, it would be a slide down smooth concrete. I have (intentionally) "fell" down this before, and am just looking for an easier way to get back up out of it the way I came instead of having to go all the way to the end of the system to get out.
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Underground Explorers
California Abandoned Mine Exploration
http://www.undergroundexplorers.com |
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junkyard
Location: LaCrosse, WI
Gender: Male
Strategic Beer Command where the metal hits the meat.
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 137 on 4/21/2010 8:47 PM >
| | | | Well said. How much is your life worth? $150 for a real rope isn't much at all. Getting lucky makes people stupid. You can use shit rope and get away with it.....until it breaks. Problem solves itself.
I drink gasoline for breakfeast and beer for dinner!
Any problem can be licked with a case of beer and a few sticks of dynamite.
Strategic Beer Command ruling the desert since 1995 http://www.strategic-beer-command.com |
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Therrin
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | Re: rope work
<Reply # 138 on 4/22/2010 11:54 AM >
| | | | Posted by Shane
Yeh, fancy foottapes are overrated. A bit of 6mm spectra with a double figure 8 will do you just fine for frog system and can be adjusted to various body geometries. It's also way lighter and easier to pack away.
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Meh. I'd have to completely disagree with this insofar as saying "it'll do just fine". The frog system is designed to use the specific pieces it incorporates for a reason.
The double footloop piece IS adjustable (the guano gear one), so that's not an issue. The real problem with using spectra (for what *I* am using it for) is that it's truly not as comfortable, and its nowhere near as durable as the ones that are made specifically for it.
"fancy foottapes", as opposed to simple ones, are usually a matter of whether you can afford them. Saying their overrated without having used them is a bit of a stretch. I mean, how would you really know otherwise?
If you're just doing a few short runs and stuff that's one thing, but when you're regularly using it to ascend hundreds and hundreds of feet of line, having something made for it really works best, especially when its better suited to rough/rocky/dirty/ragged environments.
As to the other, it wasn't lecturing. Lectures you pay for 
Everyone should know those statistics so they can make informed decisions about how they do their rope work. Most of us who are wiser at this point have used shit gear at some point in the past, and either had our own problems or seen other people have problems. I think its a stage you go through, but the sooner you get through it the better.
Not being completely vertical still imparts the tensile loading stress of your body on the line. The rope is *designed* to be stretched vertical. Anything that hampers it from being used in an 'ideal' manner only minimizes the total effectiveness of the line. That's why you should purchase your equipment while keeping in mind a "saftey buffer"; when working without a buffer then you're using a rope right up to and past its limits, and that's just asking for trouble.
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
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MindHacker
Location: Suburbs of DC
Gender: Male
If you spot a terrorist arrow, pin it to the wall with your shoulder.
| | Re: rope work
<Reply # 139 on 4/26/2010 2:05 AM >
| | | | working strength = 1/3rd breaking strength.
"Not for live loads" = "Don't sue us"
Etriers = awesome for bringing newbs along, not so awesome as the only entry method.
"That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire |
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