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697 online
Server Time:
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 Pouch
   
Location: Toronto, Canada
Gender: Male
 |  | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 200 on 2/12/2004 4:29 PM >
|  | | | I would post more, but nearly everything I could possibly think of saying, has already been said.
Ninj has posted what I feel is the best solution to the quiz problem. As far as making the quiz easy enough for those explorers whose first language isn't english, that won't be easy. Those people will have a difficult time, but since the quiz isn't a "pass or fail" sort of system, it should be easy to work around.
If, as it has been suggested, the quiz is focused more on forum rules, and isn't worded in a way to make it "tricky," then it should almost read like the rules page. That would make it slightly easier for non-english speakers to understand. Another option would be to place an e-mail link or some other way of letting an admin/mod know that you couldn't understand the quiz. This could be placed at the end. (That's a lot of questions)
...For here, millions of mixed shades and shadows, drowned dreams, somnambulisms, reveries; all that we call lives and souls, lie dreaming, dreaming, still... |
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Avatar-X
    
Alpha Husky
Location: West Coast
Gender: Male
yay!
| |  | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 201 on 2/12/2004 4:35 PM >
| | | | To respond to you, ninj:
Posted by Ninjalicious
1. The quiz as it now stands treats several possible right answers as wrong;
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Yes and no. There aren't any "wrong" answers in that getting a question "wrong" doesn't really make anything bad happen. I've also changed the wording, so that it doesn't say "INCORRECT", rather, it says "Good Answer! But we were looking for..."
2. The quiz doesn't differentiate clearly enough between forum policies and exploratory ethics, implying that the two are one and the same;
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Agreed, perhaps the ethics questions could be clearly marked with a disclaimer.
3. The quiz implies that there is no room for discussion on several ethical points, which is counter to the hobby's spirit;
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Again, a disclaimer for the ethical questions could fix this.
4. The quiz limits the ability of people who speak limited English as a second language to participate in the forum, and those people are desirable;
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Yes, but as Noah (i think) pointed out, if someone is having problems understanding the quiz, they'll also have problems understanding most of the forum. This one is arguable.
5. There was no vote on the quiz, and no public or private discussion in which multiple users endorsed or made suggestions about the idea. (Absence of complaint is not endorsement.)
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There were several threads about the quiz, including the one in which it was conceived. Everyone seemed OK with it then. All the admins were also OK with it when it was in the building stage. Stop trying to make up excuses for the existance of this quiz... it was publically conceived and accepted, and written by admins. The problem is not the design of the quiz -- it's exactly as we admins envisioned it -- the problem is that our viewpoint has changed after having seen how it works out in practice.
As for ninj's solution:
One of the main reasons the ethics questions are in the quiz is to help give newbies some direction, and to make sure explorers and authority get the right idea about UE in general.
Maybe it's as simple as clearly marking the ethics questions as "RECOMMENDED" but not forced.
huskies - such fluff. |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 203 on 2/12/2004 5:00 PM >
|  | | | Posted by Avatar-X
There were several threads about the quiz, including the one in which it was conceived. Everyone seemed OK with it then. All the admins were also OK with it when it was in the building stage.
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Actually, my feeling on the quiz was...
Posted by Jester
I think the quiz is about as useful as putting a screen door on a submarine.
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But I'm not specifically against it, I just don't think it will be all that useful... of course if it reduces the amount of stupid questions, I would be happy...
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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The Hitman's Daughter
Account Closed
Location: ottawa, canada
Gender: Female
hot pavement.
| | | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 204 on 2/12/2004 5:25 PM >
| | | | How about changing the quiz to reflect forum policy only? Forget questions about crawling through windows and stuff... Have ten questions regarding board use only.
richellesart.com
From now on and until the end of time, "Hip To Be Square" will conjure images of bloody bodies being hacked apart with axes.
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Ninjalicious
Gone, but always with us
Location: Toronto
| | | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 205 on 2/12/2004 5:42 PM >
|  | | | I like Krazy's idea of creating a separate and optional "Dick and Jane Ethical Scenarios" type quiz. I bet just about everyone would enjoy taking it, especially since they wouldn't be forced to. (The rules quiz could stay mandatory.)
Posted by Avatar-X
There were several threads about the quiz, including the one in which it was conceived. Everyone seemed OK with it then. All the admins were also OK with it when it was in the building stage. Stop trying to make up excuses for the existance of this quiz... it was publically conceived and accepted, and written by admins.
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How did you judge that everyone "seemed okay with it", though -- just lack of protest after you announced your decision? You announced your final decision out of the blue, without seeking any user approval or input. While this isn't that important to finding a solution now, I think it's false to pretend things were otherwise, because then we won't learn from these mistakes and do things less autocratically next time.
Ninj
http://www.infiltration.org
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Avatar-X
Alpha Husky
Location: West Coast
Gender: Male
yay!
| | | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 206 on 2/12/2004 6:30 PM >
| | | | Not true:
http://www.uer.ca/forum_showthread.asp?fid=1&threadid=3577&currpage=2
See my reply, beginning with "Alright, how's this idea:".
I put forth this as a solution. Some people had suggestions and opinions, but most people were "Sounds good". So that's why the idea went ahead as planned.
I did NOT just post it "out of the blue", nor did I announce it as a "final" decision. I don't appreciate my words being twisted and people putting words in my mouth. Please READ the original posts before just spewing off about what was supposedly said.
huskies - such fluff. |
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PAWolf
Not from Pennsylvania
Location: KCMO
Gender: Male
We haven't located us yet.
| |  |  | | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 207 on 2/12/2004 6:37 PM >
| | | | Ok, I don't feel like reading the middle 4 pages of this thread so I'm sorry if it's been discussed. I'm concerned that the regular visitors of the forum who are not native english speakers might have some trouble with the quiz, Gothicserge in particular. Did he pass it ok?
Make Beer, Not War. |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 208 on 2/12/2004 6:39 PM >
| | | | http://www.uer.ca/forum_showthread.asp?fid=1&threadid=3577&currpage=6
Well, I can at least say that I did not want it, which is pretty clear in that thread...
[Admin. Note: You, Commander Chainsaw, Ben, Kimmo and Capone all clearly expressed reservations. -Ninj]
[last edit 2/12/2004 9:06 PM by Ninjalicious - edited 1 times]
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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el nerdo
  
Chief UER Lackey
Gender: Male
What are you, from the Department of Know'm Sayin's? You takin' a Know'm census?
| | | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 209 on 2/12/2004 6:51 PM >
| | | | You know, it doesn't matter if you want it or not.
It's not your forum. If Av wants to post a quiz, no one can stop him.
All the people that have complained have only two courses of action: Sit in the forum, take the quiz, then moan about it... or go away.
It's his forum, you're all his guests on his server.
If he did something so grievously heinous that it caused a large chunk of users to leave the forums, then so be it!
Too many of you are missing the point that the mods didn't create this out of malice or ill-will. Their intentions were noble.
And this idea has been floating around for a loooong time. This wasn't out of the blue. I heard about this idea even before I joined the forums.
You had your opportunity to speak up about this on many occasions. And you didn't. (I'm being generic here, not pointing to anyone in particular.)
If your local municipality decided to have a budget hearing (which they did here in Toronto not-so-long ago) and at that hearing decided that it was a great idea to paint every police car hot pink, and no one was there to offer a dissenting opinion, then guess what? Hot pink cop cars it is!
You were all given ample opportunity to speak your mind, and you did not.
Honestly, this isn't a democracy. The mods bend over backwards here to accomodate everyone most of the time.
While Av is a personal friend of mine, that still has not stopped me from publicly and privately dissenting, chastizing or criticizing his actions from time to time.
But when it's all said and done: it's his site, his forum, his money. He doesn't have to pander to ANYONE. The fact that he and the other mods take the time to even ask for opinion is proof enough to me that they do care about all of your thoughts.
Go find another cause to champion. 'Cause really, all you're doing is beating a dead horse.
The quiz should stay.
[last edit 2/12/2004 6:52 PM by el nerdo - edited 1 times]
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The Hitman's Daughter
Account Closed
Location: ottawa, canada
Gender: Female
hot pavement.
| | | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 210 on 2/12/2004 7:17 PM >
| | | | Posted by el nerdo
You know, it doesn't matter if you want it or not.
It's not your forum. If Av wants to post a quiz, no one can stop him.
It's his forum, you're all his guests on his server.
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Posted by Avatar-X
this is not "my" forum. everyone keeps saying that, but it's not. i coded it, i run the server it's on, i pay for it. technically it belongs to me, but you can't own a community. a forum doesn't build itself. this forum belongs to everyone who contributes to it.
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I think that bitching about people bitching is just as bad as the people bitching in the first place.
I suggested an idea (making the quiz about board policy only, instead of UE ethics).
richellesart.com
From now on and until the end of time, "Hip To Be Square" will conjure images of bloody bodies being hacked apart with axes.
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el nerdo
Chief UER Lackey
Gender: Male
What are you, from the Department of Know'm Sayin's? You takin' a Know'm census?
| | | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 211 on 2/12/2004 7:25 PM >
| | | | Posted by The Hitman's Daughter
I think that bitching about people bitching is just as bad as the people bitching in the first place.
I suggested an idea (making the quiz about board policy only, instead of UE ethics).
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In that vein, I think bitching about people bitching about people bitching is just as bad as the people bitching in the first place!
Oh, you weren't bitching? Neither was I!
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The Hitman's Daughter
Account Closed
Location: ottawa, canada
Gender: Female
hot pavement.
| | | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 212 on 2/12/2004 7:33 PM >
| | | | Posted by el nerdo
In that vein, I think bitching about people bitching about people bitching is just as bad as the people bitching in the first place!
Oh, you weren't bitching? Neither was I!
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you lost me.
anyway. i've also lost interest in this whole thing. I said my share and offered a solution. I'll be ignoring this thread from now on because i don't see an end to it.
richellesart.com
From now on and until the end of time, "Hip To Be Square" will conjure images of bloody bodies being hacked apart with axes.
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Mike Dijital
UEDB Moderator
Location: Boston MA.
Gender: Male
UE ver. 1.0
| | | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 213 on 2/12/2004 8:25 PM >
| | | | Posted by The Hitman's Daughter
How about changing the quiz to reflect forum policy only? Forget questions about crawling through windows and stuff... Have ten questions regarding board use only.
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I agree with this, Av's idea of urbex ethics are very different than mine.
Does that make either of us bad explorers, does that mean I can't contribute a good post,
if your going to have a quiz of the forum it should have NOTHING to do with ethics. it should have only to do with proper forum manners
Ethics is in the eye of the explorer
if your going to have ethics questions they should be along the lines of
" you just pried a board off a window to get in a location do you
A) post exectily how you did it
B ) talk about the trip you had after you got in and leave out your croebar activity
C) post a picture of you in mid pry
D) post a picture of you exploring inside said location holding your precious crowbar"
I think that states " do what you want, but we got ethics and we don't promote vandalism in anyform under the UER or mirrored sites names"
edits: damn smiles B ) makes this ---> 
[last edit 2/12/2004 8:27 PM by Mike Dijital - edited 2 times]
www.deggi5.com / www.mikedijital.com |
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sebastian
Location: muthafuckin'downtown 514
| | | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 214 on 2/12/2004 8:35 PM >
| | | | Muahahah LOL!! 11 pages of bitching!! I hope you guys didn't read all... or you really have time to waste!
FLICKR... http://www.flickr....-photography/sets/ |
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Ninjalicious
Gone, but always with us
Location: Toronto
| | | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 215 on 2/12/2004 9:13 PM >
| | | | El Nerdo: What is your problem with us continuing to discuss this? You're right that Av *can* do whatever he wants, but he's repeatedly assured us that he sees the place as a community and doesn't want to be a dictator. Maybe if we talk it over we'll be able to figure out a solution that makes most people happy.
Av: Sorry, I remembered the original thread incorrectly -- didn't mean to make you sound more authoritarian than you were. It is worth noting, however, that there were more negative responses than positive.
Ninj
http://www.infiltration.org
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 216 on 2/12/2004 9:19 PM >
| | | | And as much as this is Av's site, and an amazing job he has done for sure, it isn't anything without the members. What is a message board with no participants ? So in a way it is ours as a collective as well as Av's...
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Avatar-X
Alpha Husky
Location: West Coast
Gender: Male
yay!
| | | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 217 on 2/12/2004 9:23 PM >
| | | | Posted by Mike Dijital
I agree with this, Av's idea of urbex ethics are very different than mine.
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Like I've said about 10 times already, they're not "MY" ethics. Ninj wrote the ethics questions to which you refer, along with Crossfire. I only wrote like 2 questions, and they are specific to the forum rules. Stop taking this out on me personally.
huskies - such fluff. |
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Detroit
Moderator
Location: Ottawa /Gatineau /Montreal
Gender: Male
4-aminophenol and 2-5% potassium hydroxide
| |  | | Re: Admissions Quiz
<Reply # 219 on 2/12/2004 9:33 PM >
| | | | Posted by sebastian
anyways, everyone here did the quiz right? So it's done. Now, enjoy the website.
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I couldn't have said it better myself.
The end of the beginning is the beginning of the end. |
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