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CriminalSmile
    
location:
East Bay
Gender: Male
quaint cabin in scenic mountain surroundings
 |  | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 40 on 3/31/2006 7:33 AM >
|  | | | Posted by blackhawk
Even without a weapon , if hurt or kill someone in self defense you are in a lot of trouble. With a weapon there is additional liability, and yes the maglite may be considered one. Carrying a weapon could be consider premeditation with intent to commit serious bodily harm if you hurt someone. Your postings could be used against you; your not anonymous on the net. Trespassing is one thing, assault/manslaughter is much different, and much worse.
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I am not suggesting I would beat someone senseless with a maglight given the chance. As far as I am aware, self defense is absolutely protected by the law.
Force is the last option I am interested in using to protect myself, but I'm willing to use it I am assaulted, and you're damn right that I will use anything and everything to protect myself.
out there in the world right now, someone is exploring... |
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blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Mission Control
UER newbie
| |  | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 41 on 3/31/2006 3:33 PM >
| | | | Posted by CriminalSmile
I am not suggesting I would beat someone senseless with a maglight given the chance. As far as I am aware, self defense is absolutely protected by the law.
Force is the last option I am interested in using to protect myself, but I'm willing to use it I am assaulted, and you're damn right that I will use anything and everything to protect myself.
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In most states use of deadly force by a civilian is to be use only after all lesser measures have been exhausted. In my state if you are assaulted by someone with using their fists, and you use deadly force to stop them, you'll have a legal problem(s). If you kill them you may be charge with manslaughter, and convicted. In this state for an intruder inside your home you may use deadly force wether the perp is armed, or not. If you do use deadly force in this state outside your home to burden of proof shifts towards you especially if the perp is unarmed! In this state you are allowed to defend property necessary for your livelihood. To protect another person from someone using deadly force. The rules are complex, and vary by state. Federal land, and parks have their own set of laws, and stiff penalties for violators.
It's always easier and better to avoid an armed confrontation with someone even if you lose face. The law doesn't give a rat's ass about one's pride in these situations. The more deadly the weapon the more this applies. You better think long and hard about this if you intend use a weapon especially a gun, or knife. With a gun the results are final after you pull the trigger. There is no such thing as "winging" someone; you shoot to kill. A shoot to the upper leg can easily prove fatal.
It's much easier to avoid areas you don't have to go to, then to become involved in a mess that may not end well for you.
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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Geo
  
| | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 42 on 4/2/2006 2:38 PM >
| | | | Posted by FoxTwoFoxTwo
I completely agree with the above.
Running is your safest bet... ALL the time! Run like a rabbit!
Also, I'd like to add a medium sized spanner wrench to that list of blunt objects 
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added "medium sized spanner wrench"
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blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 43 on 4/4/2006 1:59 AM >
| | | | Posted by seicer
I have, and from personal experience, when some burglar wants to steal your equipment worth $2000 total from you, then it's best to fight back if he is unarmed. Beat the guy senseless and then ran for it when we could get away. Mind you, this was in a dead-end and the only way out was through him.
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You shouldn't have been waving all that expensive stuff in the bum's face. LOL. I think that was a would be thief, not a burglar.
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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seicer
 
location:
New York
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 44 on 4/4/2006 2:03 AM >
| | | | Posted by blackhawk
You shouldn't have been waving all that expensive stuff in the bum's face. LOL. I think that was a would be thief, not a burglar.
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It's not waving. It's not having a way out since you were at the end of the line, in terms of the building's exit options, and being faced with a thief. I don't care who you are, if you want to steal my stuff, you're going to get a nice beatdown.
Abandoned |
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Insomnya3AM
location:
Detroit
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 45 on 4/4/2006 3:12 AM >
| | | | Usually talking it out with homeless people works. It's always worked for me.
Never had to run, but that'd be the plan if it got ugly.
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blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 46 on 4/4/2006 3:26 AM >
| | | | Posted by Insomnya3AM
Usually talking it out with homeless people works. It's always worked for me.
Never had to run, but that'd be the plan if it got ugly.
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Yes well put. One other big problem is if they are squatting they may be consider the owners of that property by the law. If so you may trespassing in their home. Most states allow for aggressive defense by the resident against intruders, no verbal warning is needed by the home owner to start defending the property. In my state weather you have a weapon or not, I may use deadly force to stop you if your in my house threating me.
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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seicer
location:
New York
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 47 on 4/4/2006 4:03 AM >
| | | | Posted by Insomnya3AM
Usually talking it out with homeless people works. It's always worked for me.
Never had to run, but that'd be the plan if it got ugly.
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Wow, perhaps if you put more thought into reading my prior posts on this subject you'd be more well versed. The person lunged towards my camera, clearly indicating he wanted to take it. Now what part of that do you not understand? Do you want me to sit down with him with a cup of tea and discuss why he should or should not be into that sort of crime? Should I rear him over and spank him?
Please, let's get some real explorers and people who stand up for themselves to reply.
[last edit 4/8/2006 4:08 AM by Raticus - edited 2 times]
Abandoned |
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blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 48 on 4/4/2006 4:11 AM >
| | | | Posted by seicer
Wow, perhaps if you put more thought into reading my prior posts on this subject you'd be more well versed. The person lunged towards my camera, clearly indicating he wanted to take it. Now what part of that do you not understand? Do you want me to sit down with him with a cup of tea and discuss why he should or should not be into that sort of crime? Should I rear him over and spank him? |
If you were in his dwelling without his permission anything goes. His word against yours, and if your trespassing in his dwelling your shit is weak.
[last edit 4/8/2006 4:09 AM by Raticus - edited 1 times]
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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seicer
location:
New York
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 49 on 4/4/2006 4:18 AM >
| | | | Posted by blackhawk
If you were in his dwelling without his permission anything goes. His word against yours, and if your trespassing in his dwelling your shit is weak.
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How was I *trespassing* when I had legal permission? Even if I was "trespassing" (as you rudely made the connection), I am still not "trespassing" in "his" "dwelling" since it's not legal!
[last edit 4/8/2006 4:10 AM by Raticus - edited 1 times]
Abandoned |
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blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 50 on 4/4/2006 4:44 AM >
| | | | Posted by seicer
How was I *trespassing* when I had legal permission? Even if I was "trespassing" (as you rudely made the connection), I am still not "trespassing" in "his" "dwelling" since it's not legal!
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One side of a debate. I wasn't being rude to you, and there is no profanity in my post in response to yours. I have already posted about squatting, read all my posts. Point I am making is it is unwise to confront the homeless for a variety of reasons, including squatter's rights. You never mentioned in previous posts on this thread you had legal permission.
[last edit 4/8/2006 4:11 AM by Raticus - edited 1 times]
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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-MisfitStyle-
 
| | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 51 on 4/4/2006 4:51 AM >
| | | | I'm not going to get into this debate, but it's so weird that secier and I agree that I just had to post.  As far as I'm concerned, if any person, homeless or not, assaults me, I will defend myself. It doesn't matter if I'm in an abandonment, or on a public street. It isn't their home.... that's the definition of "homeless".
"I feel like I just got in a battle of wits with some kid in a helmet I found licking a window."
Need help? Please use the Contact a Mod forum — I'm slow to see PMs. |
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Ruck
location:
Texas
Gender: Male
| | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 52 on 4/4/2006 5:13 AM >
| | | | Posted by blackhawk
If you were in his dwelling without his permission anything goes. His word against yours, and if your trespassing in his dwelling your shit is weak.
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With all due respect, neither his blessings nor permission should have to be given for someone to explore that area. He has no more a right to that location than you do--even if he does live there, he's doing so illegally. Yes, you're trespassing, but you're not trespassing in his dwelling. You're trespassing the place he has chosen to squat. There's a difference. That's not to say that you shouldn't show him respect and respect his space and belongings, but he doesn't have some magical right to be there at your exclusion.
[last edit 4/4/2006 5:14 AM by Ruck - edited 1 times]
"For the listener, who listens in the snow, And, nothing himself, beholds Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is." ~Wallace Stevens |
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blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 53 on 4/4/2006 5:31 AM >
| | | | Posted by Zero Horizon
With all due respect, neither his blessings nor permission should have to be given for someone to explore that area. He has no more a right to that location than you do--even if he does live there, he's doing so illegally. Yes, you're trespassing, but you're not trespassing in his dwelling. You're trespassing the place he has chosen to squat. There's a difference. That's not to say that you shouldn't show him respect and respect his space and belongings, but he doesn't have some magical right to be there at your exclusion.
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Read this, and check the laws in your area.
UE Tutorials, Lessons, and Useful Info > Re: Encountering Homeless and their spaces
Who's hooch is it?
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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Ruck
location:
Texas
Gender: Male
| | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 54 on 4/4/2006 7:36 AM >
| | | | Yes, I've seen your post on the rights of squatters. However, I'm not quite certain what is being discussed here. Do you have a legal right to self-defense against a squatter--or anyone, for that matter? Yes, in most places. Do homeless people have a right to tell you not to trepass in areas they're squatting on? Yes, but you also have the right to ignore it. Would a court uphold their "squatter's rights" claim if they wanted to file charges against you? I highly doubt it. I'd be curious to know if you could produce any legal (and contemporary) precedents regarding this subject. What is law and what is prosecuted as law are two entirely different animals. And I would be willing to bet that if such cases existed, they would more about a squatter being legally recognized to continue certain activities, such as using a dwelling for shelter, than with the squatter's own legal rights concerning the property. Example: The court says this squatter has the right to live in said dwelling, persuant to city and state code, but does not have the right to file trespassing charges on other people.
In either case, I do not agree with "squatter's rights". I'll leave them alone and hopefully they'll leave me alone, but in my opinion neither of us are any more justified than the other in being there.
"For the listener, who listens in the snow, And, nothing himself, beholds Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is." ~Wallace Stevens |
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SeeThirty
location:
Indialantic, Florida
Gender: Male
| |  |  | | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 55 on 4/4/2006 2:05 PM >
| | | | Agreed. If someone isn't bothering you, don't bother them. But no one has a right to damage or take your property. So-called "squatter's rights" do not give bums and vagrants the right to injure or rob you. Even the property owner can't take your stuff. All they can do in most states is ask you to leave, and call the police. They can only get physical if you refuse their warning, or try to attack them. I didn't even think a squatter had legal rights to file trespassing charges anyway. They'd need to be written up as the property owner or a resident for that, I believe.
Regarding self-defense, it's my experience that the vast majority of people you will encounter (in the most extreme circumstances) will at best try to scare you. It's natural right? If some guy was poking around your backyard, or open garage door, you'd probably do alittle more than simply ask them to leave. Maybe wave a baseball bat or something at them, right? However, most of us know that while we can "scare" someone away, we can't actually assault trespassers without a reason, or fire a shot in the air from a gun. It's common sense. While you will occassionally run into someone who doesn't want you there enough to want to cause harm, these will absolutely be the exception to the rule. I've been in UE off and on for about 5 years, only local mind you, but I've once run into someone wanting to fight, and it was only a street gang rather than a squatter or property owner.
Knowing how to defend yourself can be important, but I think you're unlikely to put these skills to use in UE. If you follow simple safety guidelines, such as not going alone, you should be fine in almost all situations. I'd be more worried about being bit by rats down a storm drain than bumbling into some sewer kill room like in the movie "Saw".
12/17/2007 (somewhere in AvChat)
[10:29:47] <Lexi> Personally I don't really like her music
[10:29:50] <Lexi> But goddamn [10:29:59] <Lexi> I'd lick her dry. |
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DjMalign
location:
Fort Collins, CO
Gender: Male
Sexy, sexy, sexy
| | | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 56 on 4/4/2006 2:39 PM >
| | | | i hate all of you
I hate all of you |
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seicer
location:
New York
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 57 on 4/4/2006 2:46 PM >
| | | | Posted by DjMalign
i hate all of you
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I tried defending myself when some of the S(ue) crew came and tried to give me the 'physical exam' but it was just too much. I'll have to try harder next time to resist.
Abandoned |
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blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 58 on 4/4/2006 3:32 PM >
| | | | Not saying you should not defend yourself, but you better understand the laws in your state especially if you use deadly force. Results are final, and you may find yourself trying to defend yourself on assault, or worse charges, and there's lawsuits too. You can kill a person with just one blow sometimes, or cause permanent damage. Avoid confrontations when possible.
If you came into my home as a trespasser you would not be walking out. After I ID you as an intruder I may give you a chance to retreat if your not too close, and have no weapon. In my state you can use deadly force INSIDE your house even if the intruder is unarmed. If you use deadly force outside your house the burden of proof falls much more on you. If your committed a criminal act in addition to the assault the DA, and maybe a jury will not side with you. It will be more expensive than $2000 once a criminal attorney gets involved even if your innocent victim.
If a squatter has a property secured, and has been living there, lease or not, in many places that would be consider their home. Even if my door is unlocked and an intruder walks in, they will get the same response from me as if they B&E. This is consider lawful self defense.
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: Self Defense and Such
<Reply # 59 on 4/4/2006 3:45 PM >
| | | | Posted by seicer
And if *any* fucker is going to go and try to steal my camera, I am *certaintly* not going to go talk with him. I'm going to get the hell out of Dodge and if he's blocking my way, then he's going to get mowed over. I don't know about some of the posters here, but I hold very expensive camera equipment that is insured, and it is not covered if the damn thing is stolen!! I don't think blackhawk or whatever has camera equipment worth stealing, because he doesn't give two shits what happens to it!!
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Well properly insure it then. Get a marine rider which covers robbery. Standard policies are inadequate many times for expensive items; they exceed the value limits/circumstances set forth in the policy. If your good at profanity, and don't sound like a chickenshit when you say it, use that on a would be attacker first. If time permits. Works on dogs too. Don't blame me if ya get bite.
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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