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 RollingBlackout
Location: Arizona
Gender: Male
 |  | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 100 on 1/29/2010 4:12 PM >
|  | | | Posted by LauraL42
he was carrying two extra clips along w/ the one in the gun.
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That's about as stupid as carrying extra flashlight batteries, extra memory cards, or more water than you think you'll drink.
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Therrin
   
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| |  | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 101 on 1/29/2010 4:43 PM >
| | | | But, if the badge is real, its his right as well. Think about how uncomfy it'd be to actually have to shoot up the first mag, then find out the fight isn't over yet?
When I lived in certain places, putting on my gun in the morning was about as regular as putting pants on. It's something you're comfy and used to, you just do it as your daily routine. Especially like this guy in the picture, if you were wearing something over it and maybe took it off while painting.
Taking a jacket off to paint is one thing, but then deciding to also take off your gun as well and possibly leave it lying around somewhere out of your sight would just suck.
Unless you know specifically what some people/law enforcement have done in their line of work, or who they've been responsible for putting away, its really hard to judge what they think is necessary for daily defense. Friend of mine in corrections carry EVERYWHERE, but they never know if they'll run into someone at the grocery store who recognizes them and wants to do something about it. It's just a different style of life. One that by sight makes "normal people" uncomfortable, but there's a good chance that many of you wear things/do things/have things that alot of other people wouldnt be comfortable with either. Human nature.
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
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tribeachpunk
     
Location: Halifax, NS
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 102 on 1/29/2010 5:54 PM >
| | | | Posted by RollingBlackout
That's about as stupid as carrying extra flashlight batteries, extra memory cards, or more water than you think you'll drink.
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I've used my extra batteries and I'll never leave for an overnighter again without bringing 11ty billion litres of water!
Halifax UrbEx (Blog) ||| Atlantic Canada Urban Exploration Facebook Group |
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KingKong
Location: Pittsburgh PA / Rochester NY
Gender: Male
Insert artistic / badass sounding phrase here.
| | | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 104 on 1/29/2010 10:29 PM >
| | | | I feel sorry for the people that are paranoid enough to feel the need to carry extra ammunition, let alone a gun everywhere they go. Law enforcement is one thing, and A gun with A loaded clip is fine, but extra ammo in the same category as water? What exactly are you trying to prepare yourself for? I was less than 100 feet from the site of a drive by shooting as it happened and I still feel no need to carry a gun, let alone extra magazines. Unless you are anticipating an zombie attack, I just dont see the need.
Not to say I have never thought about buying a gun. I have my pistol permit and have gone to shops to browse, but as of right now it is not for me. I'll say it again. I am all for carrying a gun on your person if that is what you choose. However if you feel the need to carry say, 30 rounds on you, you must be a terrible shot and really shouldn't be carrying a gun in public anyway. Thats just my thought, no offence.
If I had to chose one tool, where it's sole purpose is defense, I would take a chainsaw. If you think about fucking around with someone with a chainsaw, well.......you just don't fuck with someone with a chainsaw. If you are going to carry a weapon, do it with style.
[last edit 1/29/2010 10:46 PM by KingKong - edited 1 times]
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RollingBlackout
Location: Arizona
Gender: Male
| | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 105 on 1/29/2010 11:17 PM >
| | | | Posted by KingKong
Unless you are anticipating an zombie attack, I just dont see the need.
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You lost all credibility with that phrase. NEVER underestimate the zombies!!!
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KingKong
Location: Pittsburgh PA / Rochester NY
Gender: Male
Insert artistic / badass sounding phrase here.
| | | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 106 on 1/30/2010 1:36 AM >
| | | | Posted by RollingBlackout
You lost all credibility with that phrase. NEVER underestimate the zombies!!!
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LOL. True story, you win!
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puravida9539
Location: Dallas Area
Gender: Male
Just give me a flashlight
| | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 107 on 1/30/2010 2:32 AM >
| | | | Posted by KingKong
If I had to chose one tool, where it's sole purpose is defense, I would take a chainsaw. If you think about fucking around with someone with a chainsaw, well.......you just don't fuck with someone with a chainsaw. If you are going to carry a weapon, do it with style.
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If you pulled out a chainsaw, I would just shoot you. But you are right, you would have way more style. Chainsaws are classy in the world of defense 
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\/adder
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 108 on 1/30/2010 2:43 AM >
| | | | In the woods NOTHING is more versatile than a splitting maul...
Basically it's a sledge hammer + axe.
And you can carry it legally without a permit: inside your vehicle and/or campsite.
It doesn't require gas, startup, can cleave any living matter in two with one hit.
Quite frankly; if I was to be attacked by a grizzly bear: I'll take a splitting maul over shotgun. No loading ammo, infinite ammo, no misfire, just as deadly, more so in the short range.
One good hit to the face and even the meanest bear is going to think twice about me as dinner. Plus it would annihilate his nose/jaw which would make eating me very very painful.
The only weapon I'd take camping in the woods with me ... other than like a camping knife.
[last edit 1/30/2010 2:45 AM by \/adder - edited 1 times]
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
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Therrin
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 109 on 1/30/2010 3:05 AM >
| | | | | Quite frankly; if I was to be attacked by a grizzly bear: I'll take a splitting maul over shotgun. No loading ammo, infinite ammo, no misfire, just as deadly, more so in the short range. |
Uhoh, ANOTHER person has just lost all credibility.
A splitting maul over a shotgun?? For REALZ?
It may have "infinite" ammo, but I can guarantee there's a finite number of times your arms can swing it with any real force.
No misfires, but definitely mis-swings, try splitting wood with one all day and see how many times you miss your mark.
Just as deadly? Wut?
MORE so in short range? Well, maybe, but only cuz its only good out to 3 feet anyway.
The nice thing about a shotgun is you can hit the bear from a good 30 to 100 yards away BEFORE the forward momentum of its running mass crushes you even if you kill it first.
Dont get me wrong, I love my splitting maul (and I own 14 chainsaws), but ya'll just went and took a good thing a little too far =( FAIL
Now if you had said "for use against zombies", that'd be a different story =)
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
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Camishere
Location: MSP
Gender: Male
I <3 Yer Mom
| | | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 110 on 1/30/2010 3:12 AM >
| | | | I Carry a small pocket knife.
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\/adder
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 111 on 1/30/2010 3:13 AM >
| | | | Posted by Therrin
Uhoh, ANOTHER person has just lost all credibility.
A splitting maul over a shotgun?? For REALZ?
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Range vs Reliability.
... and generally if you're far enough away a shotgun is preferable you can probably move away from the bear. Or up a tree.
A bear comes into the campsite the axe isn't going to not need ammo, isn't going to misfire and I'm not going to miss swing.
a Deer slug is like this big around (on my monitor):
./***\.
|_____|
|_____|
|_____|
That could easily miss something vital or miss altogether.
Buckshot might not go far enough into him or might miss anything vital.
Birdshot ... isn't typically enough kill a human, accidentally. (it can but its rare)
And yeah, I'm serious.
[last edit 1/30/2010 3:23 AM by \/adder - edited 3 times]
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
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Therrin
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 112 on 1/30/2010 3:32 AM >
| | | | | However if you feel the need to carry say, 30 rounds on you, you must be a terrible shot and really shouldn't be carrying a gun in public anyway. Thats just my thought, no offence. |
Oh wow I just read this part.
There are a few good explanations for carrying extra ammo. (if one decides its necessary, for themself, to carry a gun)
Shooting at the range and getting good groupings and accuracy is one thing. Its a nice safe and stable setting, you've a clear shooting area, a known backstop, and you CHOOSE the conditions you shoot in.
When in a crisis situation when actually using a firearm comes into play, you havent chosen the EXACT situation (as in, planned it out), you haven't chosen factors like the weather, number of enemies/targets and other variables of that nature.
When your adrenaline spikes your heart starts beating alot faster and you get what's called "perceptual narrowing", also known as tunnel vision. Many people get very sweaty, and nervous shaky hands.
Although typically what you do in practice is how you tend to react in a crisis, many people when faced with a crisis situation and an adrenaline dump will be squeezing the grip too tightly and jerk their finger on the trigger, throwing a shot out of line.
When you put all these factors into play (factors which are relatively difficult if not almost impossible to create for training purposes, short of military-style combat training), you're drastically altering a person's ability to hit with spot-on accuracy. Which isnt to say that they wont hit their target at all, but missing is more likely, as well as hits with non-critical stopping effect.
Also, in a public place you need to worry about whats BEHIND the person/people you're shooting at. Some states make it mandatory that you use hollow point ammunition for personal self defense ammo. Reason being that they're designed through expansion to stop within the body cavity, or at least to lose most of their velocity before exiting. FMJ (full metal jacket) or roundball ammo will often punch right through someone and continue with sufficient velocity to seriously wound or kill persons behind the target.
This is *another* thing to keep in mind when in a combat situation, and will only serve to ratchet up nerves. Add to this the possibility of multiple targets and the FACT that the majority of self defense gunfights happen in low light situations.
If YOU have nothing against concealed carry and YOU might even consider carrying some day.... would YOU want to put YOURSELF in the situation within the context as I just described it with only 7 to 10 rounds of ammo, when you could easily carry another magazine (or 2) without any trouble?
I really hate it when people make uninformed blanket-statements about issues they have no solid knowledge base with. *sigh*
Oh and for the record, I do NOT endorse the idea of carrying a firearm while on UER-related runs.
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
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Therrin
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 113 on 1/30/2010 3:36 AM >
| | | |
Serious, I have no doubt. You obviously didn't grow up in the mountains where you wake up in the morning to find bears sleeping on your driveway, seen how QUICK they can move, and how absolutely powerfull and fearfull they can be at "close range"; and you're obviously not a hunter.
You keep your maul, I'll keep my shotgun. Agree to disagree? =)
**EDIT**
OH! and since you don't miss, you're more than welcome to come work with me. I run a woodlot on the side with my business. Here's a picture of one of my woodpiles. I can do it all day now and I *still* miss even under ideal circumstances, let alone when being attacked by a 400 to 800 pound mammal who's trying to kill me.
You could say I'm *very experienced* when it comes to chainsaws and mauls. How about you? =)
Saying that guns shouldn't be carried while doing UER/urbex stuff is something I TOTALLY, completely agree with, 100% no arguments at all.
But making uneducated remarks about firearms in general, about their functionality and effectiveness, just because you either don't know any better or only know what you've seen on tv... UGH, that's the "taking it too far" part.
[last edit 1/30/2010 3:55 AM by Therrin - edited 2 times]
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
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Therrin
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 114 on 1/30/2010 4:21 AM >
| | | | a Deer slug is like this big around (on my monitor):
./***\.
|_____|
|_____|
|_____|
That could easily miss something vital or miss altogether.
Buckshot might not go far enough into him or might miss anything vital.
Birdshot ... isn't typically enough kill a human, accidentally. (it can but its rare) |
*therrin pulls out his reloading data books*
Yes, a 12guage 1oz slug is that size. Not so much the size that matters though, as much as the velocity, though size can be a handy thing too. And since we're talking about having a shotgun in a situation where you might encounter a bear, and using it as a defensive weapon, we'd go ahead and throw out the buckshot/birdshot loads alltogether. Nothing less than 00Buck/000Buck, if you decided not to use slugs, but slugs would be ideal.
Since you aren't a hunter, I realize that you don't know that a headshot isn't the way to go with large game (or, really any game for that matter) (oh, "game" being "animals" btw).
The head is a smaller target, and since it's encased in bone, can allow the bullet to glance off and cause minimal damage.
When shooting larger game, you'd typically either go for either front shoulder, effectively disabling your targets ability to continue forward motion; or a neck/upper cavity shot (several shots is even better, and can be fired in the span of time it'd take you to pick your maul up for the second swing, so if you dont kill that 400 to 800 pound animal with your first maul swing, you COULD be in really big trouble).
You're equating the size of the projectile to something akin to throwing a rock at the animal. *sigh* Completely leaving out things like wound channels, hydrostatic shock effect, controlled expansion and richochet. (I get it, you just don't know, I'm not holding that against you)
A 1oz 12guage slug will travel somewhere in the vicinity of 1100 to 1400fps.
Upon impact, instead of causing damage to a single area (as a maul would do), the bullet continues to travel, causing massive wounding effect to multiple layers of tissues and organ systems; crushing bones, tearing ligaments and tendons, etc etc.
Controlled expansion rounds (like hollowpoints) enter nice and small, but after travelling several inches they expand to a larger diameter, since this is the depth you'd typically go inside a larger mammal to cause the most damage as far as finding vital organs and such.
Bullets my ricochet off of bones inside the animal, causing multiple paths of wound channels with as single shot.
Hydrostatic shock is also a huge factor. It's the reason bullets can kill you even if you're wearing a BP vest which stops the projectile from penetrating into your body.
The human body (as well as most mammals) is comprised largely of water.
Similar to the way the surface of a body of water ripples when you throw a rock in it, the water mass of a mammal will "ripple" internally when struck with a bullet of sufficient mass and velocity (which a 12ga slug totally has). This effect can cause massive shock; an effective "pulping" of internal organs, even if they werent directly hit by the bullet. It can cause the organs to burst, vessels to rupture, all kinds of stuff along those lines.
BTW, hitting a bear with a maul will NOT cause this effect with any effectiveness, it requires a massive amount of impact force via firearm-capable velocities that we're talking about here.
[last edit 1/30/2010 4:22 AM by Therrin - edited 1 times]
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
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KingKong
Location: Pittsburgh PA / Rochester NY
Gender: Male
Insert artistic / badass sounding phrase here.
| | | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 115 on 1/30/2010 5:08 AM >
| | | | Posted by Therrin
Oh wow I just read this part.
There are a few good explanations for carrying extra ammo. (if one decides its necessary, for themself, to carry a gun)
Shooting at the range and getting good groupings and accuracy is one thing. Its a nice safe and stable setting, you've a clear shooting area, a known backstop, and you CHOOSE the conditions you shoot in.
When in a crisis situation when actually using a firearm comes into play, you havent chosen the EXACT situation (as in, planned it out), you haven't chosen factors like the weather, number of enemies/targets and other variables of that nature.
When your adrenaline spikes your heart starts beating alot faster and you get what's called "perceptual narrowing", also known as tunnel vision. Many people get very sweaty, and nervous shaky hands.
Although typically what you do in practice is how you tend to react in a crisis, many people when faced with a crisis situation and an adrenaline dump will be squeezing the grip too tightly and jerk their finger on the trigger, throwing a shot out of line.
When you put all these factors into play (factors which are relatively difficult if not almost impossible to create for training purposes, short of military-style combat training), you're drastically altering a person's ability to hit with spot-on accuracy. Which isnt to say that they wont hit their target at all, but missing is more likely, as well as hits with non-critical stopping effect.
Also, in a public place you need to worry about whats BEHIND the person/people you're shooting at. Some states make it mandatory that you use hollow point ammunition for personal self defense ammo. Reason being that they're designed through expansion to stop within the body cavity, or at least to lose most of their velocity before exiting. FMJ (full metal jacket) or roundball ammo will often punch right through someone and continue with sufficient velocity to seriously wound or kill persons behind the target.
This is *another* thing to keep in mind when in a combat situation, and will only serve to ratchet up nerves. Add to this the possibility of multiple targets and the FACT that the majority of self defense gunfights happen in low light situations.
If YOU have nothing against concealed carry and YOU might even consider carrying some day.... would YOU want to put YOURSELF in the situation within the context as I just described it with only 7 to 10 rounds of ammo, when you could easily carry another magazine (or 2) without any trouble?
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All I really took from this is: Fuck the bystanders. If you get a shot into your target, it is worth it for the 6 that hit innocent people. And again, like I first suggested, intelligence is your best weapon. If you actually combined intelligence with a firearm, you wouldn't be squeezing off wild, blind shots shots. If you were stupid enough to do so, you would be held accountable for them, assuming you are still alive yourself afterwards.
I really hate it when people make uninformed blanket-statements about issues they have no solid knowledge base with. *sigh*
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Just because I do not own a gun does not mean I have never spent time on a range, or have absolutely no knowledge about guns. (I started young) I know of a few rifles (small and large caliber), shotguns, handguns and an AR-15 that can attest to my ability to use them, and use them safely. I really hate it when people are just plain stupid. *sigh*
P.S. Therrin, i'd like to introduce you to sarcasm, sarcasm, this is Therrin *shakes hand*.
I am now done trying to get my viewpoint across. This is all opinion based and is quickly becoming an ethics debate. For the sake of keeping the thread going, I'm dropping the issue and would advise others to do the same. Welcome to UER, whatever your stance may be.
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Therrin
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 116 on 1/30/2010 7:15 AM >
| | | | | All I really took from this is: Fuck the bystanders. If you get a shot into your target, it is worth it for the 6 that hit innocent people. And again, like I first suggested, intelligence is your best weapon. If you actually combined intelligence with a firearm, you wouldn't be squeezing off wild, blind shots shots. If you were stupid enough to do so, you would be held accountable for them, assuming you are still alive yourself afterwards. |
With my explanation of the phsiological and mental factors that are considered with a combat scenario, I'm *relatively* sure I didnt say anything about shooting innocent people and shooting wildly and blindly. I could be wrong, considering the amount of FACTUAL information I put forward, but I'm pretty sure none of that was in there.
I simply can't see how carrying extra ammo is something that's worthy of ridicule. It's easy to spout off cussing and smokescreen addressing any of the actual points I made under a heavy layer of misdirection.
It's pretty obvious what your knowledge base is on the subject.
Let's give you an optimal scenario for your view of life though. Nice and tidy. It'll even address the "ethics" issue.
You went out for a jog, and on your way walking back home at dusk, you decide to cut through a part of town you arent overly familiar with. While walking through an alley to get to the next main street you come across 3 guys holding a woman down behind a dumpster and getting ready to rape her. As you stumble upon this scene they see you and one of them snaps a shot off in your direction because you've seen them. He misses you, but your only options are:
A) trying to talk your way out of it
 going back down the alley the way you came and getting shot in the back
C) deciding that with your life in the balance, shooting back is necessary.
So at this point, what you're saying is (with the little time you've spent on the range with "various weapons"), you'll smoothly draw your weapon, and execute 3 perfect headshots in a row at a distance of 10 yards in lowlight conditions, and have between 4 to 7 rounds to spare (depending on your pistol)????
See, in my mind it would be something closer to this:
You fumble getting your gun out, because you don't practice drawing and firing from UNDERNEATH your concealing clothing while you're at the range. Ducking behind whatever cover is available and getting your gun untangled from your sweater. Your adrenaline is POURING through your system even in this short time.
They're approaching, not knowing you have a weapon. As the first one comes into view you shoot but as he's not fully in view and you don't have a fully erect shooting posture, you miss your first shot. Realizing this you jerk the trigger again and miss again. By now your going into "fight or flight" autopilot. You shoot again and manage to catch him in the shoulder, following it up with another round immediately which hits him in the chest and takes him down. Too bad he didn't even have a gun on him.
The second one has come into view by now, (and giving you the benefit of the doubt he doesn't carry it with one in the chamber, cuz he likes that whole 'rack the slide' dramatic bit like he sees in the movies),
You fire off 3 more shots in rapid succession, your peripheral vision is cut down and your heart is pounding by now, maybe 1 or 2 rounds hit him, when the 3rd guy with the gun actually starts shooting at you.
You fire a shot and duck behind the dumpster, scared shitless. He grew up in the hood though and he's standing you off.
7 to 8 rounds in now, you're either out of ammo or only have maybe 1 or 2 shots left.
Unfortunately, this scenario isn't all that far out. When I lived in the south side of Chicago I heard gunshots several nights a week.
All it takes is being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It doesn't require you to be a violent person or "gun happy" to have your life threatened.
The sad truth is that "even the best laid plans never survive first contact with the enemy". Also, that most CCW holders don't PRACTICE AS OFTEN AS THEY SHOULD, and rarely practice using the clothing and conditions which they will most often find encounters with, and many of them have very nice and neat ideas about the way a gunfight should turn out. "bad guys dead, them alive, a couple rounds left in their single magazine".
Yeah its sarcasm I'm using, because I come across this mindset far too often.
| This is all opinion based and is quickly becoming an ethics debate. |
Ethics are a good thing to have! =) And while I'll admit that I'm opinionated, I'm pretty sure I have the training/background/credentials to actually back up the majority of my claims.
Good to meet you though! It's nice to be here =) I'm really into mine shaft rappelling and wreck diving. Maybe we could hit some tunnels or mineshafts together sometime!!! 8-)
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
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Therrin
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 117 on 1/30/2010 7:24 AM >
| | | | OHH! Btw,
I really like the suggestions given here about carrying cigarettes, a lighter, keeping a positive and friendly point of view, and NOT carrying anything more of a weapon than a maglite while exploring. =)
Another option is leaving your nice watch at home and picking up one at walmart for $5 to $10 to wear while exploring. Bums and gangbangers really like watches that LOOK cool for some reason. Having something nice and shiny seems to just make their day.
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
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leefypk
Location: Detroit Metro
Gender: Female
J. Valerian
| | | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 118 on 1/31/2010 6:21 PM >
| | | | Posted by MindHacker
Belt-award-programs are useless, but actual training is not. Especially because it gives you experience fighting. You won't learn which holes you accidentally leave open from reading books, you only learn that from getting hit a few times. You can read about weight transfer, but you really have to get out there and do some pad work for it to become instinctive. Just choose your dojo carefully, or go for a MMA academy, and you shouldn't have to worry you are only buying belts.
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QFT
Your body is the most reliable form of defense you have.
"Purity does not lie in separation from but in deeper penetration into the universe." - Teilhard de Chardin |
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Therrin
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | Re: Defense Tools
<Reply # 119 on 2/1/2010 4:34 AM >
| | | | | Your body is the most reliable form of defense you have. |
And it's usually already with you everywhere you go. WIN!!!
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
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