Maybe it's just me, but I'd hate to see anyone not get involved in urban exploration because they have this idea that it's wildly dangerous.

I don't want to make it sound like there's no element of danger in the places we go. I just think that if you're paying attention to what you're doing and not doing anything too foolish, then the likelihood of something tragic happening is fairly slim. I mean, with the exception of this recent event, the track record's been pretty good so far. As far as I know, anyway.

There'll always be things that could happen within the places we explore that are beyond our control, but I think the same thing could be said if you're riding a bike, crossing a busy street or, I don't know.. walking through a rough neighbourhood. The most we can do is to take precautions, pay attention, know your own limitations along with the ones of the structures you're exploring. After that, like with so many other things in life, the most you can do is to hope for the best.

Posted by Samurai i think in many ways, we underestimate the areas we routinely wander through.

QFT. I think a lot of people don't entirely grasp how quickly places can deteriorate without proper maintenance - and not taking into consideration the effects of demolition. Not that this poor explorer was one of those people - but he may have been. You need to always be aware of where your feet are landing, what's hanging overhead, what's jutting out of walls.

Posted by Crossfire You need to always be aware of where your feet are landing, what's hanging overhead, what's jutting out of walls.

And even if you do all of that perfectly, there are still things that will happen that are beyond your control, and you may end up hurt, with some UER ass calling you a careless idiot.

I was very sad to receive a phone call from Mutt telling about this terrible accident at Hearn. My deepest condolences go out to Ryan's family and friends.

I am also pretty disheartened by the ridiculous bickering that has been going on over this sad incident. While I do agree that there are possible repercussions from this tragedy for the "UE" community, this is not an appropriate time to delve into them.

Every single one of us takes risks each time we explore. To most people outside the exploration community we are all idiots.

We could be discussing your death right now. Have some respect people.

I was at a certain long closed hospital taking pictures near a large smokestack for the boilers. After the other person with me (hint, its the guy that just posted) had finished taking his shot, he took a step back just as a large chunk of brick from the stack's rim landed right where he had been.

So, yes, even if we stand perfectly still on solid ground there is a chance we could get injured, or worse, partaking in this past time.

My condolences to the friends and family of Ryan.

Posted by Detroit We could be discussing your death right now. Have some respect people.

By and large, I don't think there's anyone who's taking this death lightly. But we need to discuss the situation surrounding the incident. We really do not know the circumstances surrounding what happened. And seeing as we do not know what happened, we can not rule out the following:

A: The person could (note I said COULD, not did) have been acting like an idiot, jumping up and down on a catwalk. I have seen gimps do this kind of superman behavior.

or

B: The person was safely exploring, and an unfortunate set of cirumstances led to a catastrophic failure of the catwalk.

[Edit: That stupid smiley face is supposed to be a B ), arghhh Fix'd by Mutt]

As mature people, we need to acknowledge that one of the above scenario's is the cause.

Further, for the younger crowd (meaning those who are more novice to this craft, rather than a description of age) there are many lessons to be learned here:

-> A reinforcement as to why we don't go exploring alone (and why we shouldn't)
-> Be aware of your surroudings when you are in a building which has been deteriorating for a number of years, AND undergoing demolition (a bad combination)
-> Do not overestimate the stability of elements of the building. When you test a catwalk, or other precarious bridge, it may feel stable. This does not mean that it is stable.

Posted by cyn1c4l As mature people, we need to acknowledge that one of the above scenario's is the cause.

No we don't. I read somewhere that he was composing a picture at the time. I know when I am composing I often take a step or two backwards, dragging my tripod along, without looking where I am going. This is another option to add to the hundreds of stories we can come up with. We do NOT have to know exactly what happened and we do NOT have to assume what happened.

By and large, I don't think there's anyone who's taking this death lightly.

This is not true, some have taken it very lightly, still, what most are doing is using this as an opportunity to get on their high horse and preach about the media, personal safety, ethics, etc.

I understand many will see this as me on my high horse and asking people to shut up and stop using this fellow for their personal cause, but seriously, if you want to discuss media, create a thread on media the same with personal safety, etc.

Posted by argonian No we don't. I read somewhere that he was composing a picture at the time. ... This is not true, some have taken it very lightly, still, what most are doing is using this as an opportunity to get on their high horse and preach about the media, personal safety, ethics, etc. ... but seriously, if you want to discuss media, create a thread on media the same with personal safety, etc.

Regarding the first part of the quotation: I read that too, in the G&M article... again they do not know what happened. What I was meaning by that post, is not that these are the only two scenario's possible, rather we have to concede that with the amount of information given, or lack thereof, it is equally possible that said explorer was acting like a buffoon, as it is there was a tragic accident. Knowledge as to who this explorer was would tip the scales one way or the other.

Regarding the second statement quoted, notice I said "by and large", as in the majority.

As for the third part of my quotation above, I could not agree with you more. I believe we should use this as a forum to discuss repurcussions, but evil media posts should definitely be moved elsewhere.

[Edited multiple times for spelling and grammatical corrections]

Posted by cyn1c4l I blame crack.

How is joking about the shooting death of 2 innocent youth any more appropriate then joking about the fallen photographer?

Posted by Argonian I understand many will see this as me on my high horse and asking people to shut up and stop using this fellow for their personal cause, but seriously, if you want to discuss media, create a thread on media the same with personal safety, etc.

This thread started as a full member thread discussing what was then an accident resulting in serious injury. We've been arguing and speculating the broader issues around that since the beginning. The victim's subsequent death is not going to overrule the context of our discussions up until now, which is partly why I reacted so quickly to it being mistakenly transformed into a public thread. We're talking in this mode and we're going to continue to do so. Frankly I think this is more respectful than the kids over in the Chat who are busy planning what locations they're going to hit at this Saturday's monthly UER Toronto playmeet.

Now, there's a public thread over in Main for people to post their heartfelt sympathies, but given the foundation of discussion that exists in this thread, I think this is very much the place to respectfully continue discussions about what this accident might mean to us, the city, the world. Let's keep our eyes clear and open. It would be nice if speculation could be kept in some sort of check, but since we're not going to be able to avoid it, it would just be good if it could be conducted with a bit more restraint, thought, and cleverness.

Posted by cyn1c4l ...But we need to discuss the situation surrounding the incident. We really do not know the circumstances surrounding what happened...

What is there to discuss? We all acknowledge that we don't know the circumstances. Are we gaining anything with speculation? Let's stick to offering condolences.

I just came across the Globe and Mail article today... my deepest sympathies to his friends and family. Regardless of whether he was careless or whether it was just plain bad luck, it's always sad to hear of something like this happening, especially to someone in their 20s with their whole life ahead of them.

-hed

Posted by Aggressive How is joking about the shooting death of 2 innocent youth any more appropriate then joking about the fallen photographer?

A tounge and cheek remark which does not translate nearly as well in written format as it does in verbal.

Posted by hedd What is there to discuss? We all acknowledge that we don't know the circumstances. Are we gaining anything with speculation? Let's stick to offering condolences.

I concur.

sucks for the family, but has anyone determined if this guy was from here?

It was suggested earlier, but it would be a good idea if one of the mods set up a sticky topic where people could express their condolences to Ryan's family and friends in a public thread. Since this one's currently set to private, we're the only ones who are able to read them. I'm not expecting people who knew Ryan to come to this site looking for our responses, but I think it would be a good show of faith nonetheless.

Edit: Ah, I see there already is one. Nm.

Posted by micro I'm not expecting people who knew Ryan to come to this site looking for our responses, but I think it would be a good show of faith nonetheless.

Indeed, and given that someone decided it would be a good idea to tell a certain reporter about the website where all the urban explorers hang out, and that namecheck ended up in print, it's a sure bet that someone is coming here looking to see what those crazy urban explorers are saying.

Which, again, is why this is a full member thread. Okay everyone? Great.

Posted by argonian This is not true, some have taken it very lightly, still, what most are doing is using this as an opportunity to get on their high horse and preach about the media, personal safety, ethics, etc.

Some of us by nature, take such things lightly. My personal view of society as a whole is pretty different from most people, most in part because I deal with a section of the public that most would sooner dismiss and ignore.

That said, it doesn't take away from the misfortune and the pain his family/friends are feeling. I've gone fairly off topic in other posts, but for the respect of Ryan and his family/friends, that won't happen again. Say what you will about the media, other explorers, etc...it doesn't take away from the fact that something very terrible happened this weekend.

However, the unfortunate reality is that there are going to be reprecussions as a result of this, but I don't think speculating is the best thing - we can't change whatever changes are going to come down the pipe.

Posted by kowalski If there are dangers, maybe we should start acting like adults and stop pretending they don't exist?

I totally agree, I have seen several explorers acting in a very unsafe manner at sites. Most of the injuries I have seen in UE are from people fooling around. I guess it comes down to what type of explorer you are. If you are a slow, through explorer who takes photographs - or a silly, social explorer who runs around and plays with anything they find. Such explorers are a danger to the whole group they are with. Abandoned sites are not 'toy boxes' and should be treated with respect and care.

Posted by Roadwolf Abandoned sites are not 'toy boxes' and should be treated with respect and care.

Well said.

So did we ever find out if this person was a member here. If so we should do something, a memorial sticky at the least, a fund for flowers for the family of the departed would probably be a better idea.