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Server Time:
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 punkboy_jerm
   
Location: Montreal
Gender: Male
 |  |  | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 20 on 9/26/2003 8:36 PM >
|  | | | About two weeks ago I went to a construction site and got chased by the security gaurds and police... you can read what happened here:
http://uer.ca/forum_showthread.asp?fid=8&threadid=2410
when the security gaurds chased me and my friend we ran behind some houses and a garage but unfortunatly the cops caught us a little afterwards. Usually im very good at getting out of trouble but this time we were completly fucked!
to avoid getting arrested good things to do are:
1)change the clothes you were wearing and put something else on.
2)calm down! if your breathing hard or sweating its a good sign to the police that your guilty.
3)get the a busy street and try to blend into the crowd
Portfolio and blog:
http://www.ibrokeup.net
http://www.escapeisathand.com |
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ReAct
Location: Northern Jersey... For now.
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 21 on 9/26/2003 11:19 PM >
|  | | | Posted by Krenta
...After a shoplifter at a department store fled a guard, slipped on a patch of ice, and broke several bones, then sued the security firm. |
Christ, do I hate attorneys, I sure hope he lost.
| On the other hand, in MN (check your local laws!) anyway, a security guard does have (limited, but real) powers of arrest. |
Something I never bothered to check, I seem to recall reading that the enforcement powers of most security guards did not extend beyond the abilities to impliment citizens arrest.
Maybe it'd be a good idea to look into local legislature. Oh, wait, that's right, I don't give a rats ass about rent-a-cops... 
| Don't lie; the sheer novelty of being told the truth often confuses police officers so much that they'll let you go with a warning. |
Ain't that the goddamn truth! You'll get looks from people like you have a third eye:
"Wait a second... Why were you in that drain?!?"
-ReAct
[last edit 9/26/2003 6:21 PM by ReAct - edited 2 times]
"'13.2V...' Thirteen volts. It's thirteen volts? Jesus, I could practically be made of salt water and this wouldn't hurt me."
"That says '13.2kV.'"
"Ohhhh... Thirteen-thousand volts... I suppose that's a little different...." |
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NoSuchPerson
  
Stop, or I'll ask you again!
| | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 22 on 9/26/2003 11:24 PM >
| | | | A quote from a cop after being called by a security guard for a tresspasser that refused to leave "Why didn't you beat some respect into him?"
In Canada:
A security guard has the same powers of arrest as every citizen in Canada - that is a Citizen's arrest. The only times a citizen may arrest:
Criminal Code of Canada:
"
494. (1) Any one may arrest without warrant
(a) a person whom he finds committing an indictable offence or;
(b) a person who, on reasonable grounds, he believes
(i) has committed a criminal offence, and
(ii) is escaping from and freshly persued by persons who have lawful
authority to arrest that person.
(2) Any one who is
(a) the owner or a person in lawful posession of property, or
(b) a person authorized by the owner or a person in lawful posession of
property,
may arrest without warrant a person whom he finds committing a criminal offence
on or in relation to that property.
(3) Any one other than a peace officer who arrests a person without warrant
shall forthwith deliver the person to a peace officer.
"
So what's that mean? Anybody in Canada can arrest you if they find you commiting an indictable offence (which includes such things as B&E, Theft, Mischeif, Murder, Assault, etc...), or if they see you running from police.
Security guards can arrest for that, as well as a few other things. The one that relates to UE is the TPA - Tresspass to Property Act. Section two of the TPA states:
"2. (1) Every person who is not acting under a right or authority conferred by law and who,
(a) without the express permission of the occupier, the proof of which rests on the defendant,
(i) enters on premises when entry is prohibited under this Act, or
(ii) engages in an activity on premises when the activity is prohibited under this Act; or
(b) does not leave the premises immediately after he or she is directed to do so by the occupier of the premises or a person authorized by the occupier,
is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to a fine of not more than $2,000. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 2 (1)."
Basically this means that if you are on a property and a security guard tells you to leave - if you refuse, or if you come back, you are subject to a 2 thousand dollar fine (max).
Section 9 provides the power to arrest:
"9. (1) A police officer, or the occupier of premises, or a person authorized by the occupier may arrest without warrant any person he or she believes on reasonable and probable grounds to be on the premises in contravention of section 2. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 9 (1)."
Note: "person authorized by the occupier" means a security guard.
Section 10 is interesting as well:
"10. Where a police officer believes on reasonable and probable grounds that a person has been in contravention of section 2 and has made fresh departure from the premises, and the person refuses to give his or her name and address, or there are reasonable and probable grounds to believe that the name or address given is false, the police officer may arrest the person without warrant. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 10."
This means that if you refuse to give your ID to a security guard, a police officer can still arrest you, so not bringing your ID or anything like that isn't going to help you, as you can still be arrested.
Having said that, when all is said and done, what's the worst that's going to happen? A maximum 2000 dollar fine, so if a guard or the cop is bitching about how you can go to jail, know that the law does not allow for that.
-Ex
Unit calling radio say again? |
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Krenta
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Nope, wasn't me.
| | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 23 on 9/27/2003 7:41 AM >
| | | |
Canada's laws are a bit more harshly worded, but the general idea's the same.
One caveat that's good to keep in mind: A few security guards are off-duty police, and their law-enforcement authority may or may not exceed that of your regular Joe Security; it depends on the area.
While there will always be exceptions, a good percentage of security guards won't arrest you if you don't piss them off, if only because the amount of paperwork and time required are significant. When I worked retail, it took us a good 30-45 minutes to do up a simple no-trespass; most times we pressed charges and had people arrested, we were looking at two hours or more commited. And that doesn't count when we had security personnel during the holiday season who had to fill out their company's incident reports for everyone caught in addition to everything else... It was easier, and a lot quicker, just to take the stuff back, yell at them some, and let them go. The ones who lied, or freaked out, or got aggressive (like the one who punched the manager) got the full treatment of arrest and prosecution... but it wasn't our first choice for a course of action.
I think it scales to UE offenses; it's a lot easier for a guard to tell some guy to fsck off and not come back than to transport him and his photo gear back to the security office, fill out a bunch of paperwork, call the cops, wait for the cops, fill out more paperwork...
Best bet is still not to get caught, but second best is not to piss off the security/police.
Have Speed Graphic, Will Travel. |
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NoSuchPerson
Stop, or I'll ask you again!
| | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 24 on 9/27/2003 8:51 AM >
| | | | Police officers cannot perform Security Guard duties.
Why? You need a security license in Ontario to be a security guard, and if you are a peace officer, you cannot get a license.
Some places, like the TTC and UofT use off-duty officers, but they aren't security, they are special constables.
-Ex
Unit calling radio say again? |
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The Lost Flock
Location: Montreal, QC
Gender: Male
baaah.
| |  | | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 25 on 9/27/2003 9:30 AM >
| | | | I was actually thinking about this earlier today, what about TTC police? Are they just like security guards or are they closer to police?
-The Lost Flock
The Lost Flock is finding it's way.
Scaffolding is like monkey bars for adults. |
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Ricotta
Nobler Donor
Location: Houston, TX
Gender: Male
De arimasu~
| | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 26 on 9/27/2003 9:38 AM >
|  | | | Cops give good exp.
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Mochi
Location: West Jordan, Utah
Gender: Male
Stare deep into a kitty's nose.
| | | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 27 on 9/27/2003 9:46 AM >
| | | | I love it when I spark a thread that gets people talking about a serious subject like this, just to have it RUINED/BETTERED (still undecided) by silly RP gaming references.
PS - An average security guard provides appx. 1000 XP.
>_< Mochi, I smashed my spider egg! Ahh man!!
JESUS SAVES!!!
(And then he redeems his tickets for free prizes!) |
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The Lost Flock
Location: Montreal, QC
Gender: Male
baaah.
| | | | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 28 on 9/27/2003 9:54 AM >
| | | | Depends on your party level silly. I mean, if you were all noobs it might be a 1000, but if you're like, mochi, it's only 5. Sorry.
-The Lost Flock
PS Av gets 2000. =P
The Lost Flock is finding it's way.
Scaffolding is like monkey bars for adults. |
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NoSuchPerson
Stop, or I'll ask you again!
| | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 29 on 9/27/2003 10:44 AM >
| | | | TTC "police" arent really police.
They are Special Constables. Basically, their authority is as follows: (This applies to the UofT police as well)
They have the same powers as security guards, as well as:
They can issue POT's (Provincial Offence Tickets), which are the same things you get when you get a speeding ticket. They can issue these things for any of the TTC By-Laws (smoking, etc...). They have the full force of the law behind them (as in, you go to court, etc...).
The other difference is that they can enforce off property for things in relation to the TTC.
-Ex
Unit calling radio say again? |
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Krenta
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Nope, wasn't me.
| | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 30 on 9/28/2003 7:42 PM >
| | | |
Huh. Here in MN, in the evil capitalist empire, sworn LE fairly regularly work security positions... it's a popular way of picking up some easy extra money.
Have Speed Graphic, Will Travel. |
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Hitman X
Location: Cambridge, ON
Gender: Male
Robot Parade!
| | | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 31 on 9/28/2003 11:43 PM >
| | | | Posted by ExKa|iBuR
Criminal Code of Canada:...
-Ex
|
Thanx! This is great info!... and I was just about to look for it myself!
Hitman X
I’m not krazy, I just need to get off this island. The doctors don’t believe I invented the chocolate éclair. But I did. I’m going to burn them all and drink soup from their skulls! Happy soup! Untie me and I’ll kill you last! |
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nominal
Location: Grimsby
Gender: Male
| | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 32 on 9/29/2003 12:44 AM >
|  | | | I work in Ont. as a gaurd and I hate paper work and doing my rounds and i'm one of the better gaurds my company has.
From my experience 9 times out of 10 the gaurd does'nt care enough to chase you if you were'nt doing anything but trespassing and the ones that think their cops are usally to fat to do anything. When I went to the office to get my uniform 2/3 of the pant waist sizes were 50+.
One tip I do have is don't yell mother jokes over your shoulder as you run, I know this would piss me off and I'd wanna kick some ass, otherwise I'd really rather just pretend I did'nt see anything.
The company I work for as a no arrest policy.
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Mancubus
| | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 33 on 10/1/2003 7:59 AM >
| | | | If they're security guards. They're probably morons. Just haul some serious ass outta there. I don't even think those rent-a-pigs are allowed to use force. If it's a cop, though, your probably better off just biting the bullet unless you know an escape route and you don't think he can outrun you. But, if you do get caught after you run he is going to be super pissed, and will probably land you in greater trouble.
P.S. I mean no offense to security guards who aren't complete idiots like the ones I've ran into.
[last edit 10/1/2003 8:01 AM by Mancubus - edited 1 times]
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Draggo
Location: Quesnel B.C., Canada.
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 34 on 10/3/2003 3:21 AM >
| | | | Posted by ExKa|iBuR
The nice thing about Canadian Law as well...
There's no law saying you can't run from security guards, or the police. It's a bad idea, but legally, there's no such charge as "running from police" or "running from security guard". The only thing you DON'T want to do is run if you have been placed under arrest - that would be incredibly stupid.
But, if the cop is just like "Hey you kid, get over here", if you think you can outrun him/her into a safe area - go for it.
BTW, Ninj - I work like, next door to you, aparantly...when are we doing lunch? hehe
-Ex
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Actually, there is such thing as evading police and resisting arrest in Canada...
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MothMan
Noble Donor
Location: The Gem City
Gender: Male
If you didn't bring back any pictures with you then you obviously weren't there!
| | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 35 on 10/3/2003 7:13 AM >
| | | | There really are no pat answers to this one. You gotta weigh the variables. And no two people will have the same outlook on this issue. My personal feeling is, there's more to this than simply, "Yes, I'll run," or "No way, I'm going to give myself up."
Do you already have a criminal record, or not?
Would this be your first offense, if charged?
If you ran, are you reasonably certain you could successfully evade the police/guards?
Have you already been recognized by the guard or cop?
Has your face been photographed by a security camera?
If you ran, is there any evidence or property left behind that can link you to the situation?
Have you created a good cover story, in advance, for just such a moment?
Do you have a social engineering degree?
If charged, how will this offense impact you socially, financially, or professionally? And... how will this offense affect you legally?
[last edit 10/6/2003 1:00 AM by MothMan - edited 1 times]
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j0lt
Location: Kobe, Japan
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 36 on 10/3/2003 5:26 PM >
| | | | Posted by MothMan
There really are no pat answers to this one. You gotta weigh the variables.
|
There's one other variable that you might think about as well:
Will I really get into any trouble if I just explain what I'm doing?
j0lt: Larger than life and twice as ugly! |
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Ferret
Location: Toronto
| | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 37 on 10/4/2003 7:39 AM >
| | | | I think it's safer to always be prepared to stop and answer should a police officer ask what you're doing.
Our group has a member that can't run even if they wanted to - me. I walk with a cane, can still climb quite well, but run? Not without seriously injuring myself. The rest of our group knows this, so none of us will run. If we're caught we'll all answer together.
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sneaker98
Location: London, Ontario
Gender: Male
Gwar.
| | | | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 38 on 10/5/2003 11:46 AM >
|  | | | One incident that happened to me a long time ago, i was "arrested" by a rail-cop (i was exploring a long section of rail and the woods around it). everything but the handcuffs, the guy had a badge and read me my rights and all that. if i didnt have ID i woulda been in jail...
A large, bear shaped animal, possibly a bear, has been spotted looking for food or possibly employment. |
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NoSuchPerson
Stop, or I'll ask you again!
| | Re: Making a run for it
<Reply # 39 on 10/5/2003 12:08 PM >
| | | | Those so called "rail cops" *ARE* police.
They are fully sworn Police Officers, they have the /exact same/ authority as any other police force in Canada.
CP and CN Police are their own separate Police Departments, given authority by the RCMP. No Special Constables or Security Officers here - they are the real deal - same as Toronto Police, OPP, RCMP, or whatever.
-Ex
Unit calling radio say again? |
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