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1 2 3 4   UER Forum > Archived Forum Announcements > A personal request (Viewed 2027 times) -MisfitStyle-   |  A personal request < on 4/15/2006 1:06 AM >   Hi everybody, I realize that, in the past few days, the announcements coming out of the mod camp have been, for the most part, pretty stuffy and "official". For that, I would like to apologize. While every single announcement posted by me was reviewed and approved by my moderating peers, it was I who wrote them and, most likely, gave some of you the bad impression you have of the moderating team right now. This message is from me, not them. Like many of you, the moderating team was caught by surprise by Av's announcement about stepping down and beginning the process of open elections. While some were comfortable with the idea, many of us were not. It's not so much that we were looking to bring ourselves into power instead..we simply felt that the elections would not work in their current form and wished to make our voices heard, just like the rest of you. While I don't need to go through the whole story, we've certainly seen the result. Valid or not, Av put the global poll to all of you and the majority voted for us, the moderators, to "run the show". Like the rest of you, we had to process this information and attempt to deal with it the best way we could. In the last couple of days we have spent each and every afternoon and night debating various issues in the admin board and in private chat meetings. These issues have included things like changes to make the LDB more secure, improving the full membership system, and how best to facilitate suggestions and comments from you guys. Despite how it may seems, we are moving forward. We just want to make sure that it's done right and not in a hasty fashion. We want to make sure that we are doing the job we came here to do, which is to serve this community and ensure the smooth operation of this site. None of us are here because we want power, or to "rule" over you guys. We're really just here to help. Many of us are newly-appointed and we're still finding our footing, both with being moderators and with running the site. I realize that there is a lot of confusion, resentment, and anger out there right now. Some members have been quite vocal in their opposition to this form of "government" (a word I use lightly). However, we're here and we're doing the best we can. I assure you guys that we are absolutely interested in what you have to say, what your suggestions are, and how you think we can improve the site. However, we just started two days ago. We need some time to get settled in and figure a few things out first, like how certain responsibilities will be transferred from Av to us. I've received a lot of flak over the last few days, simply for being the most visible mod right now, but I want you guys to know that this isn't about that. This is about asking for your help. So, my personal request is this: Please have some patience with us. We are working as very hard as we possibly can and we want nothing more than the best for this site and for you guys. We are not going to be banning anyone for disagreeing with us, and we don't expect everyone to support us whole heartedly, but I would ask that you please be kind enough to at least give us a chance. Please bear with us during this time. It's difficult for everyone. It's hard for you guys, it's hard for us, and I'm sure it's difficult for Av to watch. We are confident that we can make this work and I hope that, in time, you guys will feel confident in us too. If any of you guys have any concerns, I urge you to PM myself or one of the other moderators. We're all here to help, and because we love UER. Since many of you don't really know many of the mods, I'm going to allow them to post any statements they would like in this thread, to try and maybe impart how they feel, and then open it up to you guys for responses. Scratch that. I've opened it up. I've still encouraged the mods to post here, but I'd like to hear from everyone. All I ask is that it stays respectful to all members. -MisfitStyle- [last edit 4/22/2006 12:42 AM by -MisfitStyle- - edited 6 times] "I feel like I just got in a battle of wits with some kid in a helmet I found licking a window." Need help? Please use the Contact a Mod forum — I'm slow to see PMs. Agent Skelly  Web Sheriff Location: Oregon Territory Gender: Male Prenez De L'Avance Avec Chrysler!  |  |  |  |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 1 on 4/15/2006 1:13 AM >   I'm backing up what Misfit here has nicely said. We are here you help you, not hate you. If we hated you, we would not be here nor would UER be around. [last edit 4/15/2006 1:20 AM by Agent Skelly - edited 2 times] Darkwolf  Mellow Moderator Location: Florida... Again... Gender: Male I fix things!  |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 2 on 4/15/2006 1:30 AM >   Posted by Agent Skelly I'm backing up what Misfit here has nicely said. We are here you help you, not hate you. If we hated you, we would not be here nor would UER be around. Im backing up what you all have said. I have always loved the site and it's members. I just want this site to be the best it can be for everyone. That is what we are working at. Dave *Best Post Ever* any meetups to go to the malt plant? I'll join and be the first one over, so you know I'm not a cop. Also I'll bring beer. *DO NOT MESSAGE ME WITH ISSUES. PLEASE USE CONTACT A MODERATOR* Jupiter  Moderator Location: Toronto Gender: Male Boffo's alright... for now.  |  |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 3 on 4/15/2006 2:51 AM >   I think generally all we're asking is that you give us a bit of a chance before going nuts. We're in this position because we were voted into it in Av's poll, there was no coup or anything like that. If you disagree with the results, that's your choice. I just hope that most members are mature enough to take a "wait and see" attitude towards this. If we screw things up horribly? Fine. I'd understand any anger directed our way. But I don't think that's going to happen, and unless it does, all I'm asking is that people just try to keep cooler heads in the name of peace on UER. Abandoned Planet maZe  Location: Montreal/Moncton/Ottawa Gender: Female "All the world's a stage and most of us are desperately unrehearsed" - Sean O'Casey  |  |  |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 4 on 4/15/2006 3:02 AM >   Ok. First, thanks for opening a thread like this one so we can have a discussion. Honestly, I feel betrayed. I feel like the mods pulled a quicky on all of us who invested constructive energy and time into setting up a way to have a democratic process in place and some democratic leaders. I have lots of problems with this : "we simply felt that the elections would not work in their current form and wished to make our voices heard, just like the rest of you." I don't remember many mods expressing their voices and their opinions in the board set up by Chainsaw. Actually, we would have loved to get more opinions from the mods. But let's face it, mods didn't participated in it much, if not at all. 99% of the mods choose not to have their voice heard in the UER election forum. Instead, what seemed to have happened is that lots of mods lobbied behind closed doors, in PM and in mods forums to derail a democratic process that was going quite well actually and that was well-lead by Chainsaw. How could the mods feel that the elections would not work in their current form when NO FORM WAS DECIDED YET. A group of individuals were nominated and were ready to discuss how to get an election going. Mods didn't even gave a chance to this democratic process. Mods didn't even tried to wait and see if this democratic process was going to work. This quick reaction from the mods to pull the rug right under the feet of people willing to work on putting together an form of election raises a few questions. -Why did the mods didn't even want to give a chance to the democratic process that was going ahead and moving swiftly? -Why were they so afraid of having other people in charge? -Why not give a chance to this process? The irony of this situation is that for over a week, mods have been lobbying behind closed doors to derail the democratic process taking place and to have all the power given to them. For over a week, they wanted the keys of the house arguing they were ready to be in charge. Yet, once they did succeeded in derailing the process taking place, they then excused themselves saying they weren't ready and it's been only 2 days when in fact, they've been arguing for over a week so they should be ready. Some former mods could argue that some have been thinking about being in charge for MONTHS. UER is a great site. If I wouldn't care about it, I wouldn't spend HOURS writing all this, with the objective of ameliorating UER. And let's face it - this is not a country, it's at best a community, at worst just a private website. I believe it's a community and such a community needs some check and balance. We have a check, with the mods, yet we have no balance. I personally don't see how having a group of non-elected individuals in charge of UER, taking decisions in private, with not even a forum to discuss the general direction and vision of UER would help solve anything. I actually believe it creates a bigger problem of credibility and imputability. Av, being the owner of this site, had the credibility of being the owner. Mods have no credibility to the eyes of the members. Some are great, almost all are seasoned explorers. But what do we know about their vision for UER? what do we know about their ideas? Their views on the future of this website? Nada. No credibility. Bottom line, here's what I can't quite grasp. Mods didn't even bother to give a chance to the democratic process and lobbied to pull the plug on it before it even took shape and before making their voices and opinions heards in the UER ELECTIONS forum. All done behind closed doors. And today, we have the mods asking us to give them a chance and give them time. Why would I give them time and a chance when they didn't give one to the process I was working on? Because of a poll. Come on, that's not serious... Rick Mercer created a poll so the then-leader of the Conservative Party Stockwell Day would change his name to Doris Day and 97% of all the people who answered said he needed to change his name. Polls are good for Entertainment tonight but that's about it. Mechfreak57 in the UER chat : "George W. Bush is not perfect. He fucked up the borders and Irak is a shit storm but he's the best we've got. " Save the world - adopt an American! -MisfitStyle-   |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 5 on 4/15/2006 3:18 AM >   I don't remember many mods expressing their voices and their opinions in the board set up by Chainsaw. Actually, we would have loved to get more opinions from the mods. But let's face it, mods didn't participated in it much, if not at all. 99% of the mods choose not to have their voice heard in the UER election forum. Instead, what seemed to have happened is that lots of mods lobbied behind closed doors, in PM and in mods forums to derail a democratic process that was going quite well actually and that was well-lead by Chainsaw. As a mod, I felt it would be innapropriate for me to badmouth the process set in motion by Av. I felt like it would not help the site if, all of a sudden, Av's moderators started going against him publically. So, we spoke with him and Chainsaw privately. How could the mods feel that the elections would not work in their current form when NO FORM WAS DECIDED YET. A group of individuals were nominated and were ready to discuss how to get an election going. Mods didn't even gave a chance to this democratic process. Mods didn't even tried to wait and see if this democratic process was going to work. I can't speak for all of the moderators, but I felt that elections wouldn't work period. Note that I didn't say "the elections wouldn't work unless the moderator win". As a member of this site, I thought elections was the last course of actions Av should have taken. However, because I have always wanted to help the site in any way possible, note that I was also nominated to that same council to help plan. I don't think I was unique in feeling this way, nor were the other moderators who complained. This quick reaction from the mods to pull the rug right under the feet of people willing to work on putting together an form of election raises a few questions. -Why did the mods didn't even want to give a chance to the democratic process that was going ahead and moving swiftly? -Why were they so afraid of having other people in charge? -Why not give a chance to this process? You don't understand. At no point did the mods pull the rug out from under anything. Av did that. He posted to the admin board one day and said, more or less, "I don't think elections are going to work, do you guys want to take the job?" Yes, some people had mentioned that the moderators could just take over, but the moderators themselves were not the first ones to bring the idea up. We were not afraid of having other people in charge, we had no reason to be. In fact, many of the plans for an elected government that I saw called for the moderators to remain in their positions. The irony of this situation is that for over a week, mods have been lobbying behind closed doors to derail the democratic process taking place and to have all the power given to them. For over a week, they wanted the keys of the house arguing they were ready to be in charge. Yet, once they did succeeded in derailing the process taking place, they then excused themselves saying they weren't ready and it's been only 2 days when in fact, they've been arguing for over a week so they should be ready. Some former mods could argue that some have been thinking about being in charge for MONTHS. I hate to be blunt, but you really have no idea what you're talking about. How could you, these discussions you speak of would've happened behind closed doors in the admin board. The mods did not begin discussing the idea of taking over the site until it had already been suggested by a number of other users. We are not saying that we are not ready, we are asking the members of UER to give us some time before openly saying that this system is not going to work. You seem to forget that it was the members of this site who voted for this option. You say that some have been thinking about this for months...which ones? Most of the mods have been here for about two months now. Sorry, that idea just doesn't fly. It was the former mods who discussed this option thoroughly with Av, not us. I personally don't see how having a group of non-elected individuals in charge of UER, taking decisions in private, with not even a forum to discuss the general direction and vision of UER would help solve anything. I actually believe it creates a bigger problem of credibility and imputability. Av, being the owner of this site, had the credibility of being the owner. Mods have no credibility to the eyes of the members. Some are great, almost all are seasoned explorers. But what do we know about their vision for UER? what do we know about their ideas? Their views on the future of this website? Nada. No credibility. I will repeat this again. It was Av's decision to pull the Forum Issues section..not ours. In fact, there is discussion already about whether or not we are going to vote to put it back. Please, don't confuse our actions with those of the former administrator. Yes, I have told users to wait for the suggestions form or whatever, but what else was I supposed to do when Av had already pulled the plug on Forum Issues? Bottom line, here's what I can't quite grasp. Mods didn't even bother to give a chance to the democratic process and lobbied to pull the plug on it before it even took shape and before making their voices and opinions heards in the UER ELECTIONS forum. All done behind closed doors. And today, we have the mods asking us to give them a chance and give them time. Why would I give them time and a chance when they didn't give one to the process I was working on? Because of a poll. Come on, that's not serious... We're not the ones who created the global poll, we're simply following it. Again, I remind you that it was not the mods who halted the election, that was Av. Considering all of those points, I really don't think it's too much to ask for a little patience and understanding. The moderators are just trying to make sure things run smoothly along here and help you guys the best we can. "I feel like I just got in a battle of wits with some kid in a helmet I found licking a window." Need help? Please use the Contact a Mod forum — I'm slow to see PMs. Chainsaw  This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information. Location: Underground, Colorado Gender: Male  |  |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 6 on 4/15/2006 3:46 AM >   My major beef is with the moderators objection to the pace at which decisions were being made. You plead for time to setup processes and see if it can work before you pull the plug. Why should I? How much time did you give us? Sounds like me a week ago in the admin forums. In the course of what, 8 days the majority of mods went from "This change is too fast!" because they weren't sure what was going on to "This process will take too long!" when the possibility of taking the board appeared. Am *I* really the one making the mods look their grabbing for power here? I objected because it would APPEAR like a power grab and we just needed a little more time to setup a process, give us a chance before you pull the plug. I BEGGED you guys to participate in the elections, I sublty and OVERTLY hinted at the idea of the Mods forming a party and participating together or as individuals. I laid down a freakin trail of chocolates leading you and the other mods to the election planning council and asked you to participate as MEMBERS in the election planning. I think I might have NOMINATED you for participation in that council, or at least checked you off my list when I saw someone had done it already. I nominated or seconded a number of mods and would have for any other that asked me. *I* was the person that needed to remain removed from the process. The objections raised by mods about the elections could have been addressed. One moderators concern about "elected officials" getting access to some peoples private boards as mods - private boards shouldn't matter here, a lot of groups use them, is it right to threaten their security by allowing the community to replace a trusted group of people with an elected official who might not respect their privacy? Of course not, and THAT fact should have been brought to the people trying to plan the government. Instead, the process was highjacked for the greater good and you STILL don't have a plan. You're at square one plus a few steps back for loss of credibility. Remember, the popular vote about the mods taking over was the SECOND vote for wether the mods should take over. Guess who won the first one too? I even suggested we ask the mods to take over in the interim and continue with current standards and practices UNTIL elections are held, didn't see that on the global poll! Congratulations, you have seated the election council by hijacking the democratic process. Now it's time to decide what type of government you want to have. We'd be about here in the election planning council as well. How is your plan better? Quid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur. Raticus  Moderator Location: Tyler Gender: Male Ratus exploricus abandonae  |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 7 on 4/15/2006 4:30 AM >   Chainsaw, re-read what your saying. Your post is full of "I", "I", "ME","I". I think that's what's got you so mad is that this was all about you, it didn't work, and now your mad at the world and want to make the mod team look like the bad guys. None of the mods did anything that I saw to "hijack" this site or anything else. Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools speak because they have to say something. maZe  Location: Montreal/Moncton/Ottawa Gender: Female "All the world's a stage and most of us are desperately unrehearsed" - Sean O'Casey  |  |  |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 8 on 4/15/2006 4:32 AM >   It wasn't about Chainsaw, it was about restoring some respect and credibility to this site. Raticus, what did you do lately to help the democracy process? WE, the ones that invested time and energy, all felt betrayed. [last edit 4/15/2006 4:36 AM by maZe - edited 1 times] Mechfreak57 in the UER chat : "George W. Bush is not perfect. He fucked up the borders and Irak is a shit storm but he's the best we've got. " Save the world - adopt an American! Raticus  Moderator Location: Tyler Gender: Male Ratus exploricus abandonae  |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 9 on 4/15/2006 4:40 AM >   Posted by maZe It wasn't about Chainsaw, it was about restoring some respect and credibility to this site. Raticus, what did you do lately to help the democracy process? WE, the ones that invested time and energy, all felt betrayed. I'm sure you did. To some point, I think we all felt some betrayal. What did I do to help the democratic process? In all of my posts in the admin forum, even in places where I didn't agree, I would ALWAYS end my posts with something along the lines of "whatever is decided, I'll be behind it 100%". But frankly, you cannot run a website that way. It's not a country, it's not a government. Name me 1 succesful website that is ran by a democratic, publically voted government style system and let me go look at it and see how it's done. Just give me a link to 1 succesful site. Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools speak because they have to say something. Jester  Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada Gender: Male Always just out of sight...  |  |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 10 on 4/15/2006 4:48 AM >   Want to know what I see ? I sincerely doubt it, but I'm going to share it with you anyways. A bunch of mods, who clearly wanted the moderating power (remember, these were all applicants asking for the positions, not people offered the positions as in the past without them asking for the jobs) and were now on the verge of their power being taken back a very short time after they got it. If you had really wanted what was best for the site, you would have looked at things without the bias and pushed for a truly democratic decision be made, with informed points of view shared and much input along the way. I am very disappointed with the power plays that have made the potential democratic decisions into a farce. I'm not somebody that has no idea how moderating works, I know your jobs better than you'll know them a year from now. Myself and the mods that resigned ALL could have stepped up on several occasions and said we would accept the head honcho role here, and not one of us did. We gave up our powers for an ideal. Now you new mods stand before the ideal and given the chance to make things right, lets just see if this batch of mods has an ounce of the strength of character as the originals. I'd love to be surprised... It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. Raticus  Moderator Location: Tyler Gender: Male Ratus exploricus abandonae  |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 11 on 4/15/2006 4:53 AM >   Posted by Jester Myself and the mods that resigned ALL could have stepped up on several occasions and said we would accept the head honcho role here, and not one of us did. We gave up our powers for an ideal. Now you new mods stand before the ideal and given the chance to make things right, lets just see if this batch of mods has an ounce of the strength of character as the originals. I'd love to be surprised... So you think when you guys resigned that it made things all better? Tell me how quiting was the right thing? Tell me how that helped this site. And, I'm still waiting on someone to show me ONE link to a site that is run like a democratic governmental body, and is running successfully. Still waiting. It ain't out there. Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools speak because they have to say something. maZe  Location: Montreal/Moncton/Ottawa Gender: Female "All the world's a stage and most of us are desperately unrehearsed" - Sean O'Casey  |  |  |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 12 on 4/15/2006 5:01 AM >   Posted by Raticus And, I'm still waiting on someone to show me ONE link to a site that is run like a democratic governmental body, and is running successfully. Still waiting. It ain't out there. -pretty much all CMS, may I suggest Mambo, especially all the forums which I'm part of as a webmaster and web administrator (www.mamboserver.com) -Wikipedia also comes to mind -all pools and groups on Flikr pretty much, including flikr-off Mechfreak57 in the UER chat : "George W. Bush is not perfect. He fucked up the borders and Irak is a shit storm but he's the best we've got. " Save the world - adopt an American! Jester  Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada Gender: Male Always just out of sight...  |  |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 13 on 4/15/2006 5:11 AM >   Posted by Raticus So you think when you guys resigned that it made things all better? Tell me how quiting was the right thing? Tell me how that helped this site. And, I'm still waiting on someone to show me ONE link to a site that is run like a democratic governmental body, and is running successfully. Still waiting. It ain't out there. Way to miss the point. The point was, any of us old mods could have taken the sole leadership role on several occasions, and we all chose not to. We could have stayed and pushed for more power for ourselves and we chose not to. You have now had a chance to make things better by pushing for the democratic process... and chose not to. You call what we did quitting ? It was self sacrifice. We gave up the power willfully, to try to make people realize there were problems and hoped it would lead to resolutions to the problems. If you fail to understand that, or equate it with a weakness of those who did it, then uer is in far greater trouble than ever before. It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. Raticus  Moderator Location: Tyler Gender: Male Ratus exploricus abandonae  |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 14 on 4/15/2006 5:35 AM >   Posted by Jester Way to miss the point. The point was, any of us old mods could have taken the sole leadership role on several occasions, and we all chose not to. We could have stayed and pushed for more power for ourselves and we chose not to. You have now had a chance to make things better by pushing for the democratic process... and chose not to. You call what we did quitting ? It was self sacrifice. We gave up the power willfully, to try to make people realize there were problems and hoped it would lead to resolutions to the problems. If you fail to understand that, or equate it with a weakness of those who did it, then uer is in far greater trouble than ever before. I did NOT miss your point. In fact, I'm sure you missed mine. If a place is in trouble, and your helping to lead the place, your going to quit and hope like hell it gets better? I know most of the story about what happened, not all, but most. I did not miss your point. But my point is that quiting, or sacrificing as you call it, obviously did not make things great did it. So don't expect all of us to just quit now. Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools speak because they have to say something. Jester  Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada Gender: Male Always just out of sight...  |  |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 15 on 4/15/2006 5:54 AM >   Posted by Raticus I did NOT miss your point. In fact, I'm sure you missed mine. If a place is in trouble, and your helping to lead the place, your going to quit and hope like hell it gets better? I know most of the story about what happened, not all, but most. I did not miss your point. But my point is that quiting, or sacrificing as you call it, obviously did not make things great did it. So don't expect all of us to just quit now. *sigh* Still missing the point. Our sacrifice did cause change. You think it's some grande coincidence that once Av didn't have the buffer (that he didn't even acknowledge helped him) he was ready to quit again ? If you think you know what you needed to do as a mod, you missed the assignment already. You, unlike myself and the other unselfish mods that resigned, had an option we did not have. You could have pushed the democratic option and made it happen fairly. You chose not to. You still could, but from your responses, all I see is your own agenda. People call me egotistical, and even I am not so monumentally arrogant to believe that I would be best controlling things, especially when a truly democratic option could be had. Were I in your position, i'd be advocating a real democratic process be completed (exactly what Chainsaw was doing) and if I ended up amongst the people chosen truthfully to help guide the site I would, and if I wasn't chosen, then I would happily step aside, knowing decisions were made properly. It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. -MisfitStyle-   |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 16 on 4/15/2006 6:07 AM >   You know what? You're right. We are egotistical, power-hungry, and want nothing more than to see this site fail and to rule over all of its members with an iron fist. We will censor everything you say and ban anyone we don't like on a whim. We are thoroughly terrible people and we certainly don't give a shit about this place. Is that what you guys want to hear? I'm done trying to prove myself. I've put how I think and feel out there. It's there for people to believe or not believe as they see fit. Now, I'm going to go back to the admin board and actually try and get something done. You guys go ahead and debate our motives and virtues as much as you like, I'm done with it. "I feel like I just got in a battle of wits with some kid in a helmet I found licking a window." Need help? Please use the Contact a Mod forum — I'm slow to see PMs. Jester  Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada Gender: Male Always just out of sight...  |  |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 17 on 4/15/2006 6:15 AM >   Misunderstand all you want. You have the power and a perfect opportunity to show that it's not all you care about. Ask Chainsaw if he'll work on the honest democracy approach and see how things go then. or don't, and search high and low for some magical solution that couldn't potentially result in a loss of power for you while ignoring the very noble and respectable option. Actions speak volumes. It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. Jupiter  Moderator Location: Toronto Gender: Male Boffo's alright... for now.  |  |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 18 on 4/15/2006 9:24 AM >   I still don't get how the poll, which was basically the definition of democracy on the site as it was open to all members, is undemocratic when it voted the mods into power... Abandoned Planet TurboZutek  King Dick Location: Scotland Gender: Male Giant octo-penised rapephant  |  |  |  Re: A personal request <Reply # 19 on 4/15/2006 11:01 AM >   Well, a few things occur to me. One, the mods have made a heartfelt request for some calm and a little time to work things out. I'm normally the first person to stir shit and make trouble, but even I'm going to grant them that. They asked nicely, for a simple thing! Two, we are going over the past again - post mortem of a past situation sometimes teaches us lessons on where we went wrong and how better to conduct ourselves in the future - in this case there is a little of that and a LOT of bad feeling - over something that's past, done and can't be changed. Given this, we have a choice - continue to moan about what happened and how it was terrible and Av ran away and the Mods assumed control and oh god how will we live, help me - I've fallen and I can't get up... or We could figure out where we go from here! Maybe the full government idea isn't the way forward - maybe the mods being in total control isn't the way forward: we can argue this till doomsday and beyond. It seems to me that if we take any power trip out the equation, we have a group of new mods whose general manager has just walked off the shop floor. Put yourself in this position for a moment - new job, your stuck behind the sales desk with a ton of irate shoppers demanding refunds and your manager can't be there to help you out. How do you feel? So, it's my suggestion that some kinda' compromise might be in order in the meantime. I think the Mods have too much on their plate at the moment and it's my suggestion to reinstate 'Forum Issues' - call it something else and have a small handful of people there to manage it, call them a 'steering group' for want of a better word! The UER membership can put forward their case and suggestions on how they would like to see the site handled from here on in and the steering group can make sense of it all, work the details and make good, solid well engineered suggestions to the mods. This is very, very similar to the 'full government' idea that was started with Chainsaw's private board, but in a smaller and more manageable form. Have a representative from our main geo areas (USA, Canada, Europe, etc etc), people who have been here a while and that we all know - and more importantly have the thing totally open to all - not a private board, like the 10-100 that have sprung up overnight already. Accept what we have to work with - and work with it, improving it where needed and called for. Regardless of what you think of my idea (love it hate it or something else) it would be nice to see more posts of this type - suggestions on how to move forward positively and constructively. We can fight with the mods and throw knifes - or accept that they were landed in a situation and work with that situation for the better. Fuck, I typed a lot. Chris... We all had ostriches. My dad had an ostrich farm! I remember one day someone came in and said the high altitude bombing of Kosovo had been a limited success, so we all went out and celebrated… by killing an ostrich and boiling it in kiwi fruit. 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