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1 2 3   UER Forum > Archived Old Forum Issues > Huh? (Viewed 641 times) Jester  Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada Gender: Male Always just out of sight...  |  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 20 on 12/10/2004 4:02 AM >   Thanks Mouse, for explaining. It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. Servo   |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 21 on 12/10/2004 4:03 AM >   Posted by K.A.O.S. Incidentally I've been on several forums and message boards on the Internet with less moderation than UER that are more functional, so claiming that this level of moderation is the only solution doesn't jive with my personal experience. Please, toss me some examples. I'd love to see what it is that they're doing differently, or for what reason their model works better. I had hoped you would've addressed some of the other points I raised. Edit: also, I don't find the moderation here strict at all. It's actually pretty lax compared to many forums I've been to. [last edit 12/10/2004 4:20 AM by Servo - edited 1 times] Kay O. Sweaver  Location: Montreal, Quebec Gender: Male Happiness is saying yes more often than no.  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 22 on 12/10/2004 4:20 AM >   Sorry Servo, I'm tired of talking to brick walls, though I should realise that with you I probably would be listened to. The Sydney Cave Clan mailing list has very little moderation, though I understand that there's a bit more now than there was when I was around. The only moderation I can remember on that list was a member being banned for a week because he was making unwelcome sexual comments about a female explorer. www.filmshooting.com has a large community and even some heated debates but I've never seen any locking or banning occuring there. The Palladium RPG mailing lists I was on when I was in my RPG phase also never had any locking or banning though there were again certainly lively debates. The only rules that we ever really used on UEA were regarding 1) granting access to the forums, 2) splitting off topic threads and 3) revealing sensitive information in the public forums. UEA's difficulties started with illegal rave promoters using UEA as a resource. We certainly argued and fought and debated but we always resolved our problems. It was the introduction of a blatant criminal element and concerns about intellectual property rights that led us to the decision to take UEA down and completely redesign it. I think its telling that although UEA was designed as a local UE resource we ended up with numerous regular posters from all over the globe, including several of the moderators here. I understand that I'm free to leave UER and that really its none of my business to tell people how to run things. Everything I offer is a suggestion and nothing more, but I give those suggestions out of good will. I want UER to reach its full potential, though I don't think it will ever be what it hopes to be in uniting the entire UE community and spreading good ethics and all that. That's simply a far too ambitious, imperialistic goal. That doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. [last edit 12/11/2004 1:50 AM by Kay O. Sweaver - edited 1 times] ========================== Amy Smith is an infected slut oCtAnE  Location: TORONTO, CANADA Gender: Male EXPLORER AT LARGE  |  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 23 on 12/10/2004 4:25 AM >   Posted by Servo Yeah, I really want to see someone do this. Start a forum, no moderation whatsoever, no rules, no locking, no moderator deletion, but users can edit or delete their own posts at any time. Oh and you also have to have completely open registration, no email verification, and the site has to be linked from some popular sites like Slashdot. See how long things stay above water. In other words, you wanna see an all-out flame war of epic proportions that will inevitably destroy a community. Cool. -Octane FUELED BY OCTANE. Servo   |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 24 on 12/10/2004 4:27 AM >   Posted by Octane In other words, you wanna see an all-out flame war of epic proportions that will inevitably destroy a community. Wow, way to totally miss the point. I was pointing out how this would not work, and result in exactly what you said. Unless this is double-secret sarcasm and I missed it. Buh? [last edit 12/10/2004 4:36 AM by Servo - edited 1 times] Stewie  Location: Hamilton, Ontario Gender: Male kill your idols  |  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 25 on 12/10/2004 6:11 AM >   You guys just spend more time exploring and less time complaining on the internet. Really... you can't call yourselves "Urban Exploration Alberta", if all you do is complain about shit on UER. > The hierarchy of power dictates that the person with the most power does the least amount of work and retains the highest benefit. IIVQ  Location: La Sud-Est du cité majeur du North-Holland (Bijlmer), .NL Gender: Male Back in Urbex!  |  |  |  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 26 on 12/10/2004 9:00 AM >   One thing about media: When talking IRL people usually see each other's reactions from their face and they are too polite to shout at each other. In most chat channels that have a "community" there is not much need for moderation. In the chat channel I've been a member of for 4 years (and a mod for almost a year) there have been several flamewars. But never a kick or ban because of that. All kicks (somewhat similar to a l0x0r) and bans were done due to people being annoying as in repeating messages, abusing the server or advertizing, not because of flamewars. I don't get why flamewars seldomly occur IRL and do occur in chat but always die out soon, while on fora they tend to grow annoying. Maybe it's because people can't react immediately, while both in chat and IRL people can react before people have had the time to motivate their point. Tijmen P.S. one of the spellcheck suggestion for flamewars is felonries Posted by MapMan | 18/9/2005 19:25 | Hedy Lamarr made porn? Posted by turbozutek | 20/9/2005 2:29 | Dude, educate us! Skaught  Location: Calgary Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 27 on 12/10/2004 1:29 PM >   Holey cow, I never read this thread until now. If this forum is generating a flamewar with Agent K then something is wrong with the forum. Take that as you like. This forum is definitely not for Urban Explorers, it is for a certain selected segment of the UE community (funny how people accuse me of being elitist when I have never excluded or censored anyone or their opinion). I still maintain a name like UER is grossly misleading. Everything that Agent k has said so far is 100% true. But not that anyone on here will believe me. K is not prone to exaggeration, or assumptions. He only speaks from experience and knowing his facts. I often go to him for advice and use his judgement. The fact he has been pulled down into a debate like this suggests something has taken him to a breaking point. He has 100x the patience for fools that I could ever hope to have. I can see why Max Action left and why Ninj avoids this place so much. If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) Skaught  Location: Calgary Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 28 on 12/10/2004 2:03 PM >   Posted by Jester Around for years ? I think I know why so many people (even those who should know better) think that UEA has not been around very long. For the first year or so of UER's existence we for the most part had no reason to visit UER. Hence when we made an appearance on UER many of the people who were newbs back then thought we were new. With our contacts in the UE community which had been built up over several years, we had considered the idea of a central worldwide UE empire website. The general consensus was it was not in the interest of UE. During that process Anymouse had built a prototype of what UER is now(urbex.ca). A few months after the prototype had been abandoned, Av approached Anymouse about the idea of taking it over. The prototype had been built on an open platform using php and MySQL. Av knew nothing about the open platform languages and concept so he built a new site from scratch on the urbex.ca concept using the Microsoft platform. The UER site as it is is almost completely based on concpets developed on urbex.ca and uea.ca. Some of it is coincidence, some of it were ideas reused from the abandoned urbex.ca site. Since most of the UE community at the time felt that the urbex.ca/uer.ca concept was a bad idea amny of the old timers in the community have either not participated in UER or have a very limited participation. They quickly became frustrated with the lack of ethics, freedom with information, level of trust given to those who had not yet proven their trustworthyness, amount of ego stroking that has always been the hallmark of UER. Many were upset that if a website was going to have to have the gaul to claim status as being the Urban Exploration Resource it should be managed in a democratic way by the community as a whole. The consensus by the community to NOT maintain a central resource was taken by some as a chance to maintain their own central resource. Why do I know this? The backlash by much of the community over the old UEA site. Anymouse, and myself to a greater extent had been the champions of the of urbex.ca/uer concept and built it in a smaller scale on the UEA site. We fielded some outright angry members of both the local and intrenational community for our approach to UE as a open and free to all database and messabeboard concept. IT took a long time for us to gain the trust of many other explorers. It wasn't until UER showed up that many of them realized we were not so bad and by then they had grown tired of defending UE. I know of several that outright left UE and others who simply stoped having an online presence. Av started UER as a UE newb without first understanding the community. Unwittingly, in the process a big part of UE was steamrolled. Many egos and UE empires were built on the massive torrent of armchair explorers and newbs who took UER as the authoritative source and beginning of UE. So UER did not catch as much flack as we had already fought those battles and interestingly we have now come full circle and are now of the same beliefs as those who at first had made our lives so difficult. We now understand why they were so anti urbex/uer/ldb/freetoall. It is not about being elitist. In our own circle of local explorers it is very easy to be a trusted part of the group. We after all have about 40 active members and many more less active members. But we do not give trust automatically. Those who are not interested in coming to a few meets and going on a few expos think we are elitist. Those people need to learn there is no free much in life. I started in UE well before UER or Av had begun to have any online presence. During the first month I was actively an explorer I found the community to be secretive and difficult to join. But with a bit of legwork and some effort I VERY quickly became a large part of the local scene. I suppose in the forst month I may have thought that others were being elitist but now I understand why. And it took me over 3 years to fully understand it. The model of an active international community of UE groups worked very well. Some groups had one or two members but UE is now often about lone wolf explorers who have no interest in connecting with the local scenes. They would rather connect with the worldwide community as individuals. That always happened but the prevalence has skyrocketed in recent years and it is my personal opinion that it has changed UE. Ya this is a double post, if you really think it is easier to read as one massive post, knock yerself out chief. [last edit 12/10/2004 2:05 PM by Skaught - edited 2 times] If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) Avatar-X  Alpha Husky Location: West Coast Gender: Male yay!  |  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 29 on 12/10/2004 2:28 PM >   Your little history lesson is very misguided. I never approached anymouse, asking to "take over" his project. When I saw it, I mentioned I had had a similar idea and wanted to know if we could combine our efforts. Then, I kind of forgot about it for several months and eventually it fell completly from my mind. Then, after another discussion with Tekriter, I coded the Location Database prototype. It had nothing to do with urbex.ca, nor was I copying the ideas from there or any inspiration from there. My inspiration was about 60% from Tekriter, 15% from UECANADA, and the rest from my own ideas. I don't appreciate you telling me what I know. Av knew nothing about the open platform languages You don't know squat about my programming skills. This site currently runs, and has always run, on MySQL. Some of it is coincidence, some of it were ideas reused from the abandoned urbex.ca site. Sorry. Wrong again. Not a single concept was stolen from your site. I think it's funny that you apply the feelings of you and your Alberta group to the entire world. Let me bring you up to date on some facts. Ninj spends quite a bit of time here, and every time I talk to him he says he likes the site or doesn't have a problem. His lack of time spent here lately is because he is currently finding himself with less free time. I'm not going to go into details, to protect his privacy. Max Action left the online UE scene altogether, including his own website. He didn't just leave UER. amount of ego stroking that has always been the hallmark of UER I didn't realize a website could have a hallmark. So every single member here is an ego stroker, is that it? Where are you getting your information? The consensus by the community to NOT maintain a central resource... YOUR community decided not to maintain a central resource. YOUR alberta community. The fact that the LDB on UER has over 50,000 photos in it I think is an excellent proof that the real, world-wide community wants such a resource. nymouse, and myself to a greater extent had been the champions of the of urbex.ca/uer concept Champions? You took your site down. Wow, that concept worked so well. Av started UER as a UE newb Oh yes, I'm such a UE newb. All I did was start a website and people started coming. The fact that your site couldn't even hold itself together is not my problem. HERE's A HINT: Did you ever notice that urbex.ca was registered on 2003/02/03? UER.CA was registered on 2002/09/19. HOW COULD I COPY A SITE THAT DIDN'T EVEN EXIST YET? I'm sick of you Alberta guys trying to control the UE world, trying to say what should be done. If your methods were so right, why did your site implode on itself? Please, stop wasting my time. huskies - such fluff. Skaught  Location: Calgary Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 30 on 12/10/2004 2:38 PM >   Well we could make cyclical arguments as you contracted yourself in the same post. Bah why bother. You want me gone. I can make my post more specific as to avoid your misunderstanding but I fail to see why I should bother. [last edit 12/10/2004 2:43 PM by Skaught - edited 1 times] If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) el nerdo  Chief UER Lackey Gender: Male What are you, from the Department of Know'm Sayin's? You takin' a Know'm census?  |  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 31 on 12/10/2004 3:04 PM >   Posted by Avatar-X HERE'S A HINT: Did you ever notice that urbex.ca was registered on 2003/02/03? UER.CA was registered on 2002/09/19. HOW COULD I COPY A SITE THAT DIDN'T EVEN EXIST YET? PWNED! Why has everything around here degraded into a "my cock is bigger than yours" argument? To the Alberta folk that seem to be stirring up all this shit lately: Go start your own site if you have such problems with the way things are run here. Oh, what's that? You tried that? And it didn't work? Get over yourselves. Skaught  Location: Calgary Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 32 on 12/10/2004 3:11 PM >   Posted by Avatar-X Your little history lesson is very misguided. I never approached anymouse, asking to "take over" his project. When I saw it, I mentioned I had had a similar idea and wanted to know if we could combine our efforts. I know that, and Anymouse said that he had dropped development of the site and that you could do whatever you wished. Collaboration was also not in the cards as php was not your language. Then, I kind of forgot about it for several months and eventually it fell completly from my mind. Then, after another discussion with Tekriter, I coded the Location Database prototype. It had nothing to do with urbex.ca, nor was I copying the ideas from there or any inspiration from there. My inspiration was about 60% from Tekriter, 15% from UECANADA, and the rest from my own ideas. I don't appreciate you telling me what I know. So then you had registered the uer domain name some time before this and had not used it? You don't know squat about my programming skills. This site currently runs, and has always run, on MySQL. My comment was based on the fact you said that you did not know php. Sorry. Wrong again. Not a single concept was stolen from your site. I never suggested or hinted that anything was stolen. If you had stolen any ideas I would have said so. I think it's funny that you apply the feelings of you and your Alberta group to the entire world. Let me bring you up to date on some facts. Ninj spends quite a bit of time here, and every time I talk to him he says he likes the site or doesn't have a problem. His lack of time spent here lately is because he is currently finding himself with less free time. I'm not going to go into details, to protect his privacy. Max Action left the online UE scene altogether, including his own website. He didn't just leave UER. To suggest that Ninj is the ue community authority is just as crazy as suggesting that uea is the authority. The only one here claiming to be the Urban Exploration Resorce is you. I didn't realize a website could have a hallmark. So every single member here is an ego stroker, is that it? Where are you getting your information? I never said every member is an ego stroker. But giving special status to people because they are gay or furry ar any such thing that is unrelated to UE only serves to put some in a different category than others. YOUR community decided not to maintain a central resource. YOUR alberta community. The fact that the LDB on UER has over 50,000 photos in it I think is an excellent proof that the real, world-wide community wants such a resource. We did not do a vote of all members of the ue community, true, that would be inpossible. We did informally talk to explorers in many places other than just Alberta. The UER community as it exists today does want uer. I have never denied that. And the UER community as a part of the UE community is large, so today, December 2004, the vote is unanimous. It was not always that way. UER has changed the face of UE. You deserve all the credit. Champions? You took your site down. Wow, that concept worked so well. Oh yes, I'm such a UE newb. All I did was start a website and people started coming. The fact that your site couldn't even hold itself together is not my problem. UEA is still up, and the "group" uea is stronger than ever and doing exactly what we set out to be. A community for Alberta explorers. We have completed what we set out to do with a resounding sucess. We have have weekly meets, we have explorers in our group exploring several times a week, we have a positive relationship with local authorities. An online presence is secondary to our goals. HERE's A HINT: Did you ever notice that urbex.ca was registered on 2003/02/03? UER.CA was registered on 2002/09/19. HOW COULD I COPY A SITE THAT DIDN'T EVEN EXIST YET? that contradicts "I never approached anymouse, asking to "take over" his project. When I saw it, I mentioned I had had a similar idea and wanted to know if we could combine our efforts. Then, I kind of forgot about it for several months and eventually it fell completly from my mind." I'm sick of you Alberta guys trying to control the UE world, trying to say what should be done. If your methods were so right, why did your site implode on itself? Please, stop wasting my time. And we are not trying to control the UE world. Only make positive changes at UER before it encounters some of the problems we encountered. Now that statement could be taken as an admission that UER is the UE world. But that would be the same kind of conclusion that would make someone think I accused you of theft. Our site did not implode, it was removed becasue it was interfereing with our primary goal, UE. If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) Avatar-X  Alpha Husky Location: West Coast Gender: Male yay!  |  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 33 on 12/10/2004 4:01 PM >   Anymouse showed me urbex AFTER UER had already been up for half a year. I never said every member is an ego stroker. But giving special status to people because they are gay or furry ar any such thing that is unrelated to UE only serves to put some in a different category than others. No member receives special treatment here. In fact, you and anymouse have been allowed to get away with way more shit than we usually allow from our members. There is no indication or category for gay or furry members. UER is not the UE world. UER is trying to offer a positive and useful resource that all explorers worldwide can (optionally) make use of. I'm not forcing anyone to be here. -av huskies - such fluff. Frost  Location: K.Dot Gender: Male No beer makes Frosty go..something something..(Taz: Crrazzy?)..Dont mind if I doo!  |  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 34 on 12/10/2004 5:06 PM >   Wow, albertans like to stir up stuff eh...... <sigh> Anyways, I'm with AV on this one all the way... except that one thing, Max Action is still active and so is his website, he just left UER that's all. I believe his most recent update wasn't that long ago at all. Why is marijuana not legal? Why is marijuana not legal? Its a natural plant that grows in the dirt. You know what's not natural, 80 year old dudes with hardons. Thats not natural, but we got pills for that. We're dedicating all our resources to keeping the old guys erect but we're puttin people in jail for smoking something that grows in the dirt. Avatar-X  Alpha Husky Location: West Coast Gender: Male yay!  |  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 35 on 12/10/2004 5:08 PM >   Posted by Frost Anyways, I'm with AV on this one all the way... except that one thing, Max Action is still active and so is his website, he just left UER that's all. I believe his most recent update wasn't that long ago at all. I was told by the people that live near him that his web presence stopped almost completely. Oh well, whatever. huskies - such fluff. Anymouse  Location: Calgary, AB Gender: Male  |  |  |  |  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 36 on 12/10/2004 5:38 PM >   Woah - just caught this one. urbex.ca wasn't the one that Av wanted to collaborate on, Skaught - it was www.uedb.org (the same acronym for his db) [last edit 12/10/2004 5:54 PM by Anymouse - edited 1 times] Anymouse  Location: Calgary, AB Gender: Male  |  |  |  |  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 37 on 12/10/2004 5:45 PM >   Posted by Avatar-X Anymouse showed me urbex AFTER UER had already been up for half a year. It seems that your history is a bit fuzzy now! Luckily I have records. Session Start (ICQ - 7037110:Avatar-X): Sun Jan 12 13:50:38 2003 Avatar-X: anyways i was thinking if perhaps we could combine efforts or something rather than trying to both do the same thing seperatly Anymouse: Umm, sure - I guess. Post something about it on the UEDB board, because I'm not really the only one doing this - I did all the coding, but it's really UEA as a group that's responsible for it. Avatar-X: well yeah Avatar-X: let me tell you my "plans" for the forum i have on the site Anymouse: Alright Avatar-X: in creating it, the aim was to have a single forum that spans many urban exploration websites. so these websites could have their own content -- stories and pictures -- but yet one common place where all explorers could discuss Avatar-X: i've already got my website, infiltration.org, and UEM on it Anymouse: Ahh, cool. Avatar-X: Wraiths is in the process of joining, and so are a few others Avatar-X: oh, and UEC kinda Anymouse: Although local exploration forums are a good idea.. Anymouse: I mean, 80% of the discussion on UEA's boards are on the secure sections about UEA stuff. Avatar-X: right now we have it as one forum, because there isnt enough traffic to warrant more than one Avatar-X: but avboard will soon be just as feature-rich as most other forums, and super-fast to boot. as you can see by infiltration.org, i've coded it so it can look completly different on another person's site Anymouse: Well, I might be okay with it - but post something to the board anyways so that Stong, Sine_wave, Agent K, etc. can check it out. This was on Jan 12, 2003. At that point, UER looked like this: http://web.archive...showcats.asp?fid=1 "Avatar-X's Forum". So I suppose there was something there, but it was hardly "up" half a year before. There was no LDB, which was a direct idea from my UEDB: At that point, UEDB.org looked like this (archive.org mangles the frames, but the sidebar looked like that for sure): http://web.archive...5/http://uedb.org/ Note the sidebar, if you turn the "UEDB Sidebar" on in UER, it looks bang on identical. So I seem to have missed something while I was sleeping, but is all of UEA being officially kicked off this board? ie. banning Skaught, Anymouse, KAOS, Reduxzero, Fyrephreak, Mr. Sable, Underneath, Nimrod, Q, etc.? UEA has a lot of reasons to be bitter. [last edit 12/10/2004 5:56 PM by Anymouse - edited 4 times] Avatar-X  Alpha Husky Location: West Coast Gender: Male yay!  |  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 38 on 12/10/2004 6:10 PM >   Posted by Anymouse There was no LDB, which was a direct idea from my UEDB: Sorry, but the LDB was not a direct idea of your UEDB. In fact, your UEDB had no bearing whatsoever on the LDB which I created 6 months after the conversation you posted. As I've already said, the LDB was 70% from tekriter's ideas (a long-time UEer in hamilton) 15% from UEC and 15% my own stuff. While I was coding it, I took my inspiration for the field names from UEC's site. At that point I had totally forgotten about your website. It was supposed to be called the Location Database, but when crossfire designed the new buttons on the side, he labelled it "UEDB". It's not a very unique name, so I don't think you or I have any real claim to it. UEA members are not banned. huskies - such fluff. Shane  Moderator Location: Bronx, NY Gender: Male  |  |  |  |  |  Re: Huh? <Reply # 39 on 12/10/2004 6:13 PM >   Blah blah blah, we were first, whine whine bitch bitch. Really, both sides of this need to grow up. Who cares what site was started first? The fact remains that this is now the biggest UE board around and it generally seems to run itself pretty well with the current setup. I definitely agree with some points on both sides, I think there could be more done on this board to keep information from getting into the wrong hands. I've never liked the idea of the UEDB myself and as such, have not contributed to it. UEA crew: You guys have some good suggestions, but you KNOW that this is not the best way to go about bringing them up. It would be greatly appreciated if you guys would do this in a more reasonable way. So please, cut the crap and make suggestions in a respectful way like most users here do. I apologize if you guys feel that some people on here have disrespected you, but the first step in making progress is to let go of personal grudges. This applies to all of the UER crew as well. "Because there's no possibility of real disaster, real risk, we're left with no chance for real salvation. Real elation. Real excitement. Joy. Discovery. Invention. The laws that keep us safe, these same laws condemn us to boredom. Without access to true chaos, we'll never have true peace. Unless everything can get worse, it won't get any better." -Chuck Palahniuk UER Forum > Archived Old Forum Issues > Huh? 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