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 Skaught
 
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
 |  |  | An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
< on 11/8/2004 7:02 AM >
|  | | | Note: please make a point of reading all posts before you reply. I want to avoid posts made when not all the views and facts have been accounted for.
what do people think of http://urbanaut.org?
I want to hear opinions on this as it is still a gestational idea.
I am thinking of a pledge of ethics as part of this. But I am looking for the bare lowest level of ethics that will allow the community to sustain itself. And I use the word sustain. I am not attempting to grow UE, just prevent it's growth from destroying the community.
Mods - try to let this run it's course. I want to get true honest opinions without anyone moderating it. This is an experiment in true democracy.
I also realized I should post my opinion on this:
An Urbanaut is not just an urban explorer. They are a person who enjoys the urban landscape and does so with a set of ethics and practices. Not everyone who is an Urban Explorer is an Urbanaut.
Being urbanaut needs to be a voluntary process, those interested step up and say their willingness to do this.
They recognize:
Exploring is a serious activity with inherent risks
We are willing to accept that we want to minimize the risk even if that means controlling our actions in a way that allthough we may be doing somethign legel, we still censor our actions in certian contexts
As a community we must be self policing
HAM radio operators are a great example of this. They have been known to carry a certain level of practices and will work to prevent others in the hobby from breaking them.
We wish to promote a positive image to the community as a whole
The only way UE will be able to exist as a community will be to control our public image in a planned and coordinated manner.
As such any person may call themselves an Urbanaut as long as they hold, follow and encourage the following ethics and remain registered on this site.
Never take anything from any site without permission
This means to me ANYTHING. if we are to be taken serously we have to appear to have rock solid ethics with no comprimise.
Never commit acts of vandalism or damage
To me changing a place is not UE. It is just like enjoying the outdoors, you don't cut down trees or make your own trails.
Never commit any illegal act aside from minor trespass in both private life and as an explorer
If we are to maintain ourselves as "normal law abiding citizens" we must be law abiding citizens in all aspects of our lives.
[last edit 11/8/2004 6:43 PM by Skaught - edited 5 times]
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Servo
  
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 1 on 11/8/2004 7:07 AM >
| | | | As long as people are actually contributing opinions, then that's cool. If people start with pure personal attacks on each other and are contributing no actual opinions to the subject at hand, those posts will get deleted in an effort to keep the thread clean. Is that OK?
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 2 on 11/8/2004 7:12 AM >
| | | | If anyone starts launching unwarented personal attacks I will just take nothing they say seriously and noone else here will.
My reason for a new name is that way there is a copywright for the name and noone else may use it without permission. That prevents those who do not hold the ethics from abusing it.
[last edit 11/8/2004 7:14 AM by Skaught - edited 1 times]
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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kowalski
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 3 on 11/8/2004 2:01 PM >
|  | | | | I want to hear opinions on this as it is still a gestational idea. |
I think this is a foolish attempt to rationalize and formalize a hobby that by its very nature is informal, anti- (or at least, extra-) authoritarian and illegal. At its root, I think there is a strongly problematic impulse to assert personal power, privilege and control over a dynamic and independent community that is not given to manipulation. While narratives over legitimate and non-legitimate behaviour are a strong and vital component of the community as it already exists, a unilateral attempt to formalize legitimacy is going to be rightly seen as presumptuous, self-serving and ineffective.
Urban exploration is not a global treehouse club, and it is not Ham radio, which is state-licensed and -regulated, relies on a limited and easily cluttered common bandwidth, incorporates social interaction as its central rather than ancillary activity, and benefits from various passive barriers to participation. Urban exploration has none of these, and any attempts to regulate it will be alienating and counterproductive.
Anyone who cares about your ethics designation is likely to already fall within the bounds of the behaviour that you're attempting to encourage. Failing to qualify for or dismissal from the covenant is not going to discourage anyone from continuing to pursue the hobby on their own terms -- it is only going to discourage them from participating in whatever community forums you are able to apply your influence to.
Your urbanaut designation carries a substantially oppressive premium and no benefits. What are you thinking?
[last edit 11/8/2004 2:01 PM by kowalski - edited 1 times]
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BigPoppaMikey
 
This user has been banned. See the banlist page for more details.
Location: Milpitas, California
Gender: Male
Don't follow me unless you want to...
| |  |  | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 4 on 11/8/2004 3:24 PM >
| | | | At this point, I find it interesting. Concepts great, but enforcement can/will be a S.O.B. until there is either a large community or you are willing to have 'Nazi' investigators (forgive the wording but it fit best).
BPM
Wishing I was Jack Dalton just to have all the cool leftovers... |
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EatsTooMuchJam
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Gender: Male
Squirty "Stickybuns" von Cherrypants
| | |  |  | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 5 on 11/8/2004 3:26 PM >
| | | | Posted by Rev. Skaught
what do people think of http://urbanaut.org?
I want to hear opinions on this as it is still a gestational idea.
I am thinking of a pledge of ethics as part of this. But I am looking for the bare lowest level of ethics that will allow the community to sustain itself. And I use the word sustain. I am not attempting to grow UE, just prevent it's growth from destroying the community.
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How will this help to attain that goal?
I also realized I should post my opinion on this:
An Urbanaut is not just an urban explorer. They are a person who enjoys the urban landscape and does so with a set of ethics and practices. Not everyone who is an Urban Explorer is an Urbanaut.
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Every person who enjoys the urban landscape does so with a set of ethics and practices. I assume you mean a specific set of ethics and practices.
Exploring is a serious activity with inherent risks
We are willing to accept that we want to minimize the risk even if that means controlling our actions in a way that allthough we may be doing somethign legel, we still censor our actions in certian contexts
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Huh? Why would we change our behavior when doing something legal?
As a community we must be self policing
HAM radio operators are a great example of this. They have been known to carry a certain level of practices and will work to prevent others in the hobby from breaking them.
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As a community we're already about as self-policing as we can be. However, since UE tends to involve a certain amount of creative ignoring of rules, trying to attach rules to it is going to be completely ineffective.
We wish to promote a positive image to the community as a whole
The only way UE will be able to exist as a community will be to control our public image in a planned and coordinated manner.
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And how will that work? Will you somehow prevent media from contacting someone that isn't in your happy little crowd?
As such any person may call themselves an Urbanaut as long as they hold, follow and encourage the following ethics and remain registered on this site.
Never take anything from any site without permission
This means to me ANYTHING. if we are to be taken serously we have to appear to have rock solid ethics with no comprimise.
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Really? I'm not registered on your site, but I'm an Urbanaut. OK. Now stop me from calling myself that. You'd look silly to the media trying to explain that one. "He calls himself an Urbanaut, but he isn't. He isn't registered on the Urbunaut website so he can't be!"
When you say don't take ANYTHING that might be a little bit too broad. I frequently steal a number of the photons from sites that I visit. They reflect off of surfaces and I aim a specially-designed instrument that uses them to excite molecules of silver halide and silver bromide suspended in gelatin. Surely this is OK.
Never commit acts of vandalism or damage
To me changing a place is not UE. It is just like enjoying the outdoors, you don't cut down trees or make your own trails.
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And how are you going to prevent others from doing things? Are you going to post sentries at sites?
Never commit any illegal act aside from minor trespass in both private life and as an explorer
If we are to maintain ourselves as "normal law abiding citizens" we must be law abiding citizens in all aspects of our lives.
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Who is maintaining themself as a "normal law abiding citizen?" I'm not.
[last edit 11/8/2004 3:28 PM by EatsTooMuchJam - edited 1 times]
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
-Tom Waits |
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NightGiant
Location: Western New York
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 6 on 11/8/2004 3:46 PM >
| | | | The title of Urbanaut can be repealed. The following process would be used:
1. A official complaint must be filed. Complaints may be filed for breaking any one of the ethics
2. An investigation will commence.
3. Testimony of 2 witnesses who can attest
to either the act or the admission of the act will result in loss of the Urbanaut title.
4. The offender will be listed as having lost the status of Urbanaut.
The investigators will be elected by the Urbanaut membership for a 12 month term. |
this seems rather strange to me. UE is a rather fringe activity, subsisting on an almost anarchist viewpoint. At the very least an anti-bureaucracy viewpoint. these trials you are proposing would destroy those ideas and philosophies. It would take away the part of UE that thumbs its nose at politicians, legislation and the other guys in suits who try to tell us what to do. These are just my opinions are what the experience of UE is, I don't claim to speak for anyone else, and it seems to me that this Urbanaught organization would be the UE anti-thesis.
[Code block was breaking the page layout, changed it to a quote block. - Servo]
[last edit 11/8/2004 7:08 PM by Servo - edited 3 times]
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 7 on 11/8/2004 4:16 PM >
|  | | | I think that while the sentiment and concept is noble, it isn't something that is likely to be feasible. Urban explorers are probably one of the least likely demographics to submit to any kind of organization which labels them in any way. Simply look at the reaction to people about having questions regarding ethics in the sign up quiz here... Even your own group's reaction to it shows this, and you're in agreement with the ethics that were mentioned in the quiz...
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Nosferatu Von
Location: Ancaster
Gender: Male
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 8 on 11/8/2004 4:20 PM >
| | | | I think this is a really stupid idea. The most appealing thing (to me) about UE is the fact that it's NOT policed. When you put others in charge of things like that, it's prone to corruption and inane rules get put into place. Soon Urbanauts will have to wear certain symbols or colours... what if someone is an Urbanaut imposter? What would the 'punishment' be? Forbid them to explore? Come on. Beat them up? Riiiiight. I'd be an Urbanaut imposter just to piss all the uptight asses involved in UE right off.
I'm not saying this because I've confessed to stealing things, I'm saying it because once you regulate something, it loses a lot of the credability of the activity.
Why does UE have to "move forward"? It's been doing fine as it is.... ya know... since before recorded history.
Seems your Phenomena is a Phenoma-NOT. |
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Mr. Yuk
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 9 on 11/8/2004 4:40 PM >
| | | | I think that the only things you can ask of other explorers is their respect and trust.
As everyone has pointed out, we do not like to be cast into a set of ethics or have labels placed upon us. Our common theme is going places we shouldn't be, let that continue to be our sacred bond. If you do not agree with another explorers set of ethics, so be it. Find someone else to play with.
<E
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 10 on 11/8/2004 5:08 PM >
| | | | Posted by kowalski
Your urbanaut designation carries a substantially oppressive premium and no benefits. What are you thinking?
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I thought I made it clear what I was thinking.
I see many benefits.
Here is an example of one of my motivations. http://www.uer.ca/forum_showthread.asp?fid=1&threadid=11857
Even crime is organized. They are not stupid. One can always accomplish more as a community.
And again, membership is not being forced on anyone.
(I am going to put responses in their own messages so as not to mix up peoples postings)
[last edit 11/8/2004 5:17 PM by Skaught - edited 1 times]
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 11 on 11/8/2004 5:16 PM >
| | | |
These are just my opinions are what the experience of UE is, I don't claim to speak for anyone else, and it seems to me that this Urbanaught organization would be the UE anti-thesis.
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the concept of urbanaut is not claiming to speak for anyone unless they choose it to be.
And it would be a democratic community, it's own members would speak for it.
It is interesting to note that just in the last replies one person says why do we need organization for something that is illegal and another says why do we need organization for something that is legal. I see the same point being made for both cases and in both cases I think the point is moot. Both illegal groups and legal groups exist and both have goals which they attempt to meet that could not be met as a group.
The attempt here is not even to try and legitamize UE it is to make a case that a legitimate acion is legitimate even if certain authority does not believe it to be so.
Mod Note: Fixed your quote... ~Crossfire
[last edit 11/8/2004 6:23 PM by Crossfire - edited 1 times]
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Nosferatu Von
Location: Ancaster
Gender: Male
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 12 on 11/8/2004 5:18 PM >
| | | | Membership isn't being forced on anyone, but people who aren't urbanauts (if this takes off.... doubt it will) will be looked down upon by those that are. But then again, some people need things like this to make them feel better than everyone else, so the world is your oyster.
Personally I will have absolutely no part in it.
Seems your Phenomena is a Phenoma-NOT. |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 13 on 11/8/2004 5:19 PM >
| | | | Posted by Jester
I think that while the sentiment and concept is noble, it isn't something that is likely to be feasible. Urban explorers are probably one of the least likely demographics to submit to any kind of organization which labels them in any way. Simply look at the reaction to people about having questions regarding ethics in the sign up quiz here... Even your own group's reaction to it shows this, and you're in agreement with the ethics that were mentioned in the quiz...
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People were not given a choice to accpet ot reject the quiz if they were to participate in the community. In attempting to be the centre of of the UE community Av must accept a certain amount of responsibility to be inclusive to all in the UE community. This is being made clear up front that it does not speak for the UE community. Only for those who choose to share a certian set of values.
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 14 on 11/8/2004 5:23 PM >
| | | | Posted by Rev. Skaught
People were not given a choice to accpet ot reject the quiz if they were to participate in the community.
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Even when it was made abundantly clear that the ethics questions were optional, the raction was just as negative...
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Frost
Location: K.Dot
Gender: Male
No beer makes Frosty go..something something..(Taz: Crrazzy?)..Dont mind if I doo!
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 15 on 11/8/2004 5:31 PM >
| | | | Posted by Rev. Skaught
Never commit any illegal act aside from minor trespass in both private life and as an explorer
If we are to maintain ourselves as "normal law abiding citizens" we must be law abiding citizens in all aspects of our lives.
|
Besides all the other reasons people have listed, I just want to add my own 2 cents.
UE is a hobby... hobbies GENERALLY do not have rules, or guidelines imposed upon them. Some people have woodworking as a hobby, some have art, some have photography, and granted there are certain things that one should be aware of in order to make that specific hobby successful or the outcome even remotely decent, but they aren't regulated, nor are they controlled.
UE is just like say the Pagan belief systems. In paganism, you can call yourself a pagan and still fall under one of the hundreds of labels that fall under that (ie. Shamanism, Wicca, etc.). UE is the same thing, just because we are all Urban Explorers does not mean that we will all follow the same rules, or guidelines that everyone else does. We will all come to our own conclusions, we will all arrive at our own views. There will be nothing you can do to control a situation such as this.
Now considering the point listed above in the quote, I highly disagree with this statement. For one, I'm am far from a law abiding citizen. In fact I find most of the laws imposed upon society are wrong and need to either be revoked or changed in some way. I am a UE, which obviously makes me a tresspasser, which I do on a fairly frequent basis, as does any other member that participates in this hobby. This automatically makes you a criminal in the eyes of the law, so stop fooling yourself thinking that just because it's simple tresspassing it doesn't make you a criminal... it does! Secondly there about a million other things I could list at the moment that would make me "not a law abiding citizen" ... most notably is the fact that I smoke pot in my spare time, I speed, I'm an activist (which half my actions alone could have me locked up or in a court), etc, etc, etc.
Although it's interesting, I think the whole attempt to control the community at large will cause more problems than it's worth. Not to mention, that once you attempt to control the "population" so to speak, you'll inevitably cause the creation of smaller rebellious groups that will do everything to defy you and your rules. It's human nature.
And as a last point, who the hell cares about a label? I mean lets be serious here, are we in bloody highschool? "Those are the punks, those are the jocks, etc." Labels suck, they always have, and anyone that uses them usually has a reason for justification like self-esteem or some other issue. A label is just that, it's a label. I may be an urban explorer, but in my eyes, I just explore buildings, I don't care that it's called urban exploration, I explore. In fact I explore more than just urban things, but I explore, period.
Why is marijuana not legal? Why is marijuana not legal? Its a natural plant that grows in the dirt. You know what's not natural, 80 year old dudes with hardons. Thats not natural, but we got pills for that. We're dedicating all our resources to keeping the old guys erect but we're puttin people in jail for smoking something that grows in the dirt. |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 16 on 11/8/2004 5:33 PM >
| | | | Posted by Lord Kahos
Membership isn't being forced on anyone, but people who aren't urbanauts (if this takes off.... doubt it will) will be looked down upon by those that are. But then again, some people need things like this to make them feel better than everyone else, so the world is your oyster.
Personally I will have absolutely no part in it.
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Who said anyone is better than anyone else? (aside from you) I would never suggest that. It would be akin to someone in cave clan saying they are better than someone in action squad. Different, not better.
To draw a paralell, this sounds much like arguments being made in the caving community. In that community there is a growing conflict. Many caves are being destroyed by activities such as foot prints and acetelyne lights. One camp says they are only doing caving they way they have always and they feel that no one should be able to tell them how to practice their hobby. Another camp sees the the future and has said that they will not condone activities that will eventuially lead to big problems for the hobby. Who is in the right? I do not think drawing the destinction is important. I do however think that each person does what they think is right.
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 17 on 11/8/2004 5:36 PM >
| | | | Posted by Jester
Even when it was made abundantly clear that the ethics questions were optional, the raction was just as negative...
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That is due to UER lacking a statement of it's role in UE from the begining. The same exact problem that happened at UEA. Everyone drew thier own beliefs of what the site meant to them and when others asserted their positions it casued huge conflict.
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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The Hitman's Daughter
Account Closed
Location: ottawa, canada
Gender: Female
hot pavement.
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 18 on 11/8/2004 5:40 PM >
| | | | Posted by Kowalski
I think this is a foolish attempt to rationalize and formalize a hobby that by its very nature is informal, anti- (or at least, extra-) authoritarian and illegal. |
I completely agree.
Another case of someone thinking they are better than all the other explorers because they've come up with a bunch of rules and so-called "ethics". All I have to say, is that if you're that concerned about ethics, why are you involved in a hobby based on illegal activity?
"Oh but it's just trespassing and trespassing doesn't hurt anybody and take nothing but pictures and blah blah blah noble speech blah blah!"
Wrong. Trespassing is wrong. Trespassing is a total violation of a person's privacy. Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints? Okay.. So does that make it alright to "trespass" into someone's email account and read all their emails, so long as you don't mess around with anything? Doesn't hurt anybody!
The point I'm trying to make is that I am an explorer and I accept all responsibility that goes along with it, good and bad. I accept the fact that I am breaking the law every time I slip inside the open window of an abandoned building. I don't try to sugar-coat it with all sorts of niceties like trying to convince myself that i am somehow not doing anything wrong. I know I'm doing something wrong. And I accept that.
Just use your head. Don't break things, don't destroy property. And don't think you're better than anyone else.
Posted by Lord Kahos
people who aren't urbanauts (if this takes off.... doubt it will) will be looked down upon by those that are.
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I fear that may be true.
richellesart.com
From now on and until the end of time, "Hip To Be Square" will conjure images of bloody bodies being hacked apart with axes.
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BigPoppaMikey
This user has been banned. See the banlist page for more details.
Location: Milpitas, California
Gender: Male
Don't follow me unless you want to...
| | | | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 19 on 11/8/2004 5:43 PM >
| | | | Joining this site/club/faction/clan/group is not mandatory to be an ethical UE'er. It just says to others what you feel, sort of like free speech and practising your religion. Would you take away fundamental rights of others just because you do not agree with them? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and whether or not this whole thing works out, only time will tell. I am sure there are other situations similar to this where other people said, 'This will never work!' Let the Rev take whatever direction he wants with this and wish him well in his endeavors. Maybe this will be good for all, maybe bad... Who knows until it is up and done...
BPM
Wishing I was Jack Dalton just to have all the cool leftovers... |
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