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 Roadwolf
         
The Wolf!
Location: Buffalo, NY (formerly Toronto, Canada)
Gender: Male
Living on the Road and Rails.
 |  |  |  | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 80 on 11/8/2004 10:00 PM >
|  | | | If I am an "Urbanaut" do I get a star? lol
Add me on Skype or Steam: Roadwolf611
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Frost
Location: K.Dot
Gender: Male
No beer makes Frosty go..something something..(Taz: Crrazzy?)..Dont mind if I doo!
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 81 on 11/8/2004 10:08 PM >
| | | | Posted by HauntedPA
All this talk of "organization" is a bit scary. Would it be so off base to call it "organized crime" if there was such a thing in existance? I think that UE as a whole needs to be almost a solitary endevour. Nothing larger than a few people in a local area at best. Once you start talking national or even worldwide levels the whole organized crime thing comes into play. Somehow I don't see how that would benefit UE as a whole.
Am I completely off base here?
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I'm not really going to reiterate anything from my previous posts, I feel the last 10-20 posts have done a good enough job of that. But yea, Haunted is pretty much right on, I mean that's one good reason right there to not become some sort of organized group. That would be like an activist group going out there printing t-shirts, putting up a web page, putting their logo on banners and protest signs. What good would that do besides put up a huge white flag that says "HEY WE'RE OVER HERE!". Nothing like attracting unneeded/unwanted attention.
On another note, just to brush up on one thing the Rev had replied to my earlier post, is that you may only receive a tresspass fine which isn't actually criminal, BUT depending on the officer who issues that ticket, that little tresspass crime could be considered B&E in a second. If you have to push open a window, slip through a half-closed door, if you have any sort of lock-picking tools, pliers, screwdrivers, or anything of the sort on your person that could be immediate grounds for a B&E charge which is criminal and will amount to fines as well as jail time.
Thinking that all cops are only going to charge you with tresspassing when you're caught is a little ignorant of the law. Depending on the situation, you could be nailed with many other things.... not to mention the old saying that comes to mind, "Wrong place at the wrong time." You never know when that may apply to your particular situation.
As much as the judical system likes to say we are innocent until proven guilty, I can think of hundreds of people who are detained in our prisons that are completely innocent.
Why is marijuana not legal? Why is marijuana not legal? Its a natural plant that grows in the dirt. You know what's not natural, 80 year old dudes with hardons. Thats not natural, but we got pills for that. We're dedicating all our resources to keeping the old guys erect but we're puttin people in jail for smoking something that grows in the dirt. |
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Freak
Location: Usually Alaska, now MSP.
Gender: Male
Hypocrite
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 82 on 11/8/2004 10:13 PM >
| | | | I think Detroit summed up my ideas pretty well. It seems like every few months someone comes along with a grand idea to revolutionize the UE "experience" or "Alter the Paradigm" or some such trendy psychological thing. It gets discussed and flamed, a few people convert, and then everyone forgets about it a week later. It's not just on this site or forum either, but is a cycle that I've seen in many discusion venues and websites.
In the end I think UE is whatever you want to make it. I see it as largely a personal issue, as I think religion should be. If you want to have group organization and ethics that's great, but we've all seen how the larger the group gets the more in-fighting and bullshit politics show up. Neither religions nor any other clubs should try to propagandize or impose their beliefs on others, it just leads to schisms and bad feelings. When it comes right down to it I don't really care what the hobby is called, who thinks they're running it, or how they think it should fit in to any sociopsychological system. I just want to go out and crawl in tunnels.
Turn off the internet and go play outside.
http://spamusement...hp/comics/view/137 |
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BigPoppaMikey
This user has been banned. See the banlist page for more details.
Location: Milpitas, California
Gender: Male
Don't follow me unless you want to...
| |  |  | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 83 on 11/8/2004 10:15 PM >
| | | | Posted by HauntedPA
All this talk of "organization" is a bit scary. Would it be so off base to call it "organized crime" if there was such a thing in existance? I think that UE as a whole needs to be almost a solitary endevour. Nothing larger than a few people in a local area at best. Once you start talking national or even worldwide levels the whole organized crime thing comes into play. Somehow I don't see how that would benefit UE as a whole.
Am I completely off base here?
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I think that falls under RICO. Anytime you get a group together and organized (and at this point because of using the internet, you could call it Federal), you are an 'organized crime' group subject to the same penalties under the RICO Act.
Wishing I was Jack Dalton just to have all the cool leftovers... |
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Mike Dijital
  
UEDB Moderator
Location: Boston MA.
Gender: Male
UE ver. 1.0
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 84 on 11/8/2004 10:27 PM >
| | | | Dammit , you win Crossfire. ( I only got 1 canadian Penny, but Erin is going to find out the conversion of 42 cents, maybe ill sent it to you in rubles
I think if this guy and his friends want to make a bunch of retarded self imposed rules to make there boring little lives better than who are we to argue.
If it makes the Rev feel better about himself that he is single handedly saving urbex for all of us, how could we not martyr him by slinging mud in the grand arena of UER
Every avalanche starts with a pebble so go Rev, and make my world a better place
And you are honest, if your going to preach, you might as well call yourself reverend
[last edit 11/8/2004 10:30 PM by Mike Dijital - edited 3 times]
www.deggi5.com / www.mikedijital.com |
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btween/chas
Location: north attleboro
Gender: Male
"think the alarms still got power?" riiiiiiip. RINGGGGGGG. "ah crap. run?&q
| |  | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 85 on 11/8/2004 10:50 PM >
| | | | Posted by Rev. Skaught
No one can presume to claim ownership of the word urban explorer. but a group of like minded responsible explorers can take claim to copywrited term.
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i thought ninj "owned" that term, at least in the sense of creating it.
Posted by Rev. Skaught
Isn't Mike the one who was comitting acts of theft and selling the proceeds on ebay for personal financial gain?
I do not think I am the only one who would call that an illegal business, not UE.
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as far as i see it stealing abandoned stuff is just like tresspassing on abandoned property. its only a minor crime to tresspass on abandoned ground because most of its unwanted and slated ofr demo anyway. same goes for abandoned stuff. its there cuz no one wanted it anymore. takin its just like tresspassin. and if mike wanted to make an extra buck, hey whats wrong with that? tresspassins just as bad a crime as theft when it comes to abandoned stuff, and thats not much of a crime.
im still at the "who needs rules stage"(an offshoot of the "ethincs? what ethics stage"). ill give ya a call in 12 years when im thirty, till then ill live life the way life lets me live.
(Edit: spellin')
[last edit 11/8/2004 11:08 PM by btween/chas - edited 2 times]
"chas if you can eat asbestos why are you afraid of gettin cancer from cigarettes?"
www.fallout-ue.com |
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Mr. Motts
Noble Donor
Location: Long Island and Brooklyn NY
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 86 on 11/8/2004 11:52 PM >
| | | | Why don't you just find a bunch of people who share your ideas and feelings and start a little club of your own instead of trying to segregate and classify everyone here?
The only reason this is turning into such a big shitpile is because you're trying to define words and standards we should all be using based on your own individual ideas.
Save the planet... kill yourself.
http://www.opacity.us/ - Abandoned Photography |
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DirtyDirtyShame
Location: Outside and Inside Philadelphia.
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 87 on 11/9/2004 12:49 AM >
| | | | Someone creating a term for hobby like this is another example of to many new people trying to UE. This results in damaged UEing sites, groups of people skulking around sites, and higher security becuase so many people have no refined skills at UEing and get cuaght. I am sick and tired of this attitude of "lets go walk around inside an old building and take and smash stuff". That is how accidents happen people get hurt and sites get bulldozed. People just are not ready for UEing and they think they are. You can't just go into a building spur of the moment unless you know from others or your own research about a place to make sure it is safe, becuase thats how you ruin it for everyone by starting a fire or falling through a floor so the Local Government closes it and demolishes it. I would recommend for anyone who has never UE'd and stumbled upon this on Google to sign up here learn how to explore, learn what to do and not do, research then do. Good plan?
Welcome to the city of dark. |
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kowalski
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 88 on 11/9/2004 1:40 AM >
|  | | | Well, isn't this the typical UER flamer pile-on? Traffic is definitely backed up in *both* directions.
I want to say right now that Skaught and the rest of the explorers I've met from Alberta that may or may not call themselves UEA at any given point in time are really awesome people. I stayed at his house for three days in the summer, so I know for a fact that he isn't suffering from "way too much free time." His life didn't seem that boring either. The ad hominem attacks are cheap and self-defeating, and really unimpressive.
But I'm going to stand by the critique I posted this morning. You latecomers might have skipped over it because the language was a bit academic - sorry, I was in the midst of writing a three-thousand word comparative book review of three books about the political economy of globalization.
As Freak and a couple of the other more intelligent respondents noted, there is a latent tendency in a lot of people to start drawing up grand organization initiatives along this sort of line. While usually well-meaning, it's an unfortunate product of modernity and has given us such constraining and dehumanizing hogwash as adult-run children's sports leagues [ack, i'm getting academic again, sorry.]. I can speak about it first-hand, since several times in my formative years I went off on a wild goose chase formalizing all sorts of silly and unnecessary little eccentric ideas and interests.
Anyway, there were a few other things I wanted to add, but I'm too tired to bring the strands together into something constructive. Hopefully anyone else who wishes to contribute to this thread will limit themselves to constructive dialog and not rehash the same clusterfuck over and over again. Skaught and company are great people, have been exploring forever, and despite the fact that I think he's on the wrong path here he didn't deserve the tarring that some of you have seen fit to deliver.
Have a good evening.
[last edit 11/9/2004 1:42 AM by kowalski - edited 2 times]
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Plytheman
Location: Lawrence, Massachusetts
Obey The Deer
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 89 on 11/9/2004 1:42 AM >
| | | | I dont think starting a new breed of explorers is going to solve anything. So now we have Urbanauts and everyone else that calls themselves Urban Explorers. Fact is they're both going to be trespassing and pissing people off. Just because you say "well, we dont break/steal anything and we really dont mean any harm" may make you friends with the owner, but theres still goign to be retards running around destroying shit, some calling themselves Explorers and others just breaking shit to break it. So even though you have a group dedicated to being ethical there will still be people who have never heard the term 'urbanaut' ruining it for everyone else. So besides personal satisfaction I dont see what the point of this is. Even if the whole world says "gosh those urbanauts are good kids... too bad theres still a bunch of punks running around wrecking our property. Time to lock it up" Unless the title of Urbanaut is going to get you exclusive legal access to these places, you're still going to face the same problems in the media, the law, and having places locked up.
Theres always people ruining it for others, seperating yourselves from them wont make them stop. All that explorers will have to do when buildings get locked up is sit around and wait for the people we hate to make entrances for us or make them ourselves - same as it is now.
[last edit 11/9/2004 3:01 AM by Plytheman - edited 1 times]
I'm achin, I'm shakin, I'm breakin, Like Humans Do!!
-Byrne |
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nd31
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 90 on 11/9/2004 2:33 AM >
| | | | Sounds like a lot of needless complexity to a hobby if you ask me. I fear it would become an elitist club type thing.
Therefore
Urban Explorer > Urbanaut
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HagensborgViking
Location: Fernwood, Victoria
Gender: Male
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 91 on 11/9/2004 2:53 AM >
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tbone
Gender: Male
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 93 on 11/9/2004 3:38 AM >
| | | | Posted by kowalski
is going to be rightly seen as presumptuous, self-serving and ineffective.
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once in a rare while it is worthwile to read stuff on here these days!
Posted by kowalski
I was in the midst of writing a three-thousand word comparative book review of three books about the political economy of globalization.
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ah, i was wondering what class we were in
Posted by kowalski
Hopefully anyone else who wishes to contribute to this thread will limit themselves to constructive dialog
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oh, uh, sorry.
Posted by kowalski
and not rehash the same clusterfuck over and over again.
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nice!
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 94 on 11/9/2004 6:45 AM >
| | | | Posted by Roadwolf
If I am an "Urbanaut" do I get a star? lol
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NO. Stars are for egos. They do not do anything to help with exploring.
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Stewie
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Gender: Male
kill your idols
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 95 on 11/9/2004 6:56 AM >
| | | |
Hey, I thought "clusterfuck" was pretty god damn cool. Urbanaut sounds stupid as well. Sounds like some weird astronaut... or cosmonaut. I don't like this idea, and I won't go any futher cause I'll just end up getting flamed/flaming someone else/being bannished from UER/etc.
I'll leave it to Kowalski and the more intellectual to do the talking.
> The hierarchy of power dictates that the person with the most power does the least amount of work and retains the highest benefit. |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 96 on 11/9/2004 7:03 AM >
| | | | After sharing a few pints with Anymouse we realized a few things.
Any attempt to make the UE community sustainable is folly. The community is designed for self destruction. Yes there will always be places to explore but the community will continue to degrade to the point of illogic and closed mindedness. More and more people of questionable ethics will join, the label Urban Exploration will be used in the same context as graphitti artists (and I mean the context where they are considered criminals not the one where they are artists).
There is nothing anyone can do, does not matter how long they have been on UE or how big their fan club is. Humans are just a bunch of apes in pants. Nothing more.
My original inspiration was after reading one of Jester blog entries. And I was most interested in the response. I was dismayed, albeit not at all surpried at the large number of immature responses but was also surpised at a few well thought out and balanced repsonses.
I think that allthough on the surface I am a cynical person, underneath I still hold a certian level of faith in humans for vision and foresight. Apparently I have been once again shown that this is misplaced.
I am not lashing out at the rejection of the idea. Just the fact that for some they seemed to lack the ability to open their minds for just one second. UE is about opening your mind to new pardigms. Apparently some have other motivations.
I was also verabally lashed by several outside of UER for even thinking an idea could be looked on here at as just an idea and as a starting point for discussion that could lead to something positive for UE as a whole. It is obvious just by reading this thread that many are not even capable of reading the thread before they respond, of if they did they were unable to understand it.
I suppose I am just glad that there is still a signifigant number of explorers who express their ideas elsewhere.
Again, I know I will misinterpreted. This was intended as discussion and I think some reacted with fear and anger. I have not quite figured out why, aside from some people just have an inherent fear of new ideas no matter what they are or even if they are presented as a discussion. People just jump to conclusions and assume their own experieces, no matter how broad or limited are the final word on all life experience.
But like I said, there were a few very well considered and thought out posts.
[last edit 11/9/2004 7:08 AM by Skaught - edited 2 times]
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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DjMalign
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Gender: Male
Sexy, sexy, sexy
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 97 on 11/9/2004 7:29 AM >
| | | | I read your whole statement, so let me reply:
for one I see this going downhill fast. If an "urbanaut" thing gets going when will you draw the line? As an organization will you start to impose your ideas on the UE community? I mean really think about this. You're basing your community on a set of beliefs about your hobby. You're asking members to be perfect law abiding citizens in private life as well. This smells of religious overtones. Now its not about religion but it seems like its about creating a similar structure to which religions are based with rules about personal conduct. So then I ask you: If you become so righetous, when will you start policing the community as a whole? I've seen it happen at times, and its a dangerous precedent to start. I for one don't follow many laws. I oppose the system in almost all aspects. Will you police me in my personal life if I talk about it on the forums?
Beyond that I hope it would not split any community we might have. All i'm saying is take a step back and truly think about this idea and the consequences it may have.
I hate all of you |
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Plytheman
Location: Lawrence, Massachusetts
Obey The Deer
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 98 on 11/9/2004 12:12 PM >
| | | | Posted by Rev. Skaught
Any attempt to make the UE community sustainable is folly. The community is designed for self destruction. Yes there will always be places to explore but the community will continue to degrade to the point of illogic and closed mindedness. More and more people of questionable ethics will join, the label Urban Exploration will be used in the same context as graphitti artists (and I mean the context where they are considered criminals not the one where they are artists).
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How is the community set on self destruction? Even if UER is taken down there's still the UER community. Just because you're not talking to hundreds of people from all over doesn't mean you cant call up a few friends and go have a good time. I'ld hate to see UER go but if it and all the other exploration sites and communities went down that doesn't mean you still cant get in touch with people you want to explore with.
Also, as I said before, wether the vandals and retard punks call themselves Urban Explorers or not, they're still going to be trespassing and breaking shit, and its still going to give UE a bad name and they're still going to get shit closed down. If anything is to be done to save our community it should be to go as underground as we can so when people see vandals breaking stuff they wont even know UE exists to compare it to.
I'm achin, I'm shakin, I'm breakin, Like Humans Do!!
-Byrne |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 99 on 11/9/2004 3:38 PM >
| | | | Posted by PoopDeck Pat
If anything is to be done to save our community it should be to go as underground as we can so when people see vandals breaking stuff they wont even know UE exists to compare it to.
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Burying our heads in the sand is equally futile. Regardless of whether you call yourself an urban explorer, an urbanaut, or anything else, there will still be vandals and if you're found at a place that has been vandalized in the past, you'll be regarded in a nagative way. So whether you see UE in the news or not, there will be vandals and you will be lumped in with them based solely on sharing the same stomping grounds as they frequent.
I do think UE can use a positive image, pretending we don't exist won't do that. But, trying to organize the chaotic won't either.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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