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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10  UER Forum > Archived UE Main > An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) (Viewed 3486 times) Kay O. Sweaver  Location: Montreal, Quebec Gender: Male Happiness is saying yes more often than no.  |  Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) <Reply # 180 on 12/2/2004 12:32 AM >   Emma, by your logic Jesus, Ghandi, Martin Luther, Arlo Guthrie, George Washington and countless other "heroes" were evil. I mean come on. ========================== Amy Smith is an infected slut White Rabbit  Women's Advocate Location: Missouri Gender: Male  |  |  Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) <Reply # 181 on 12/2/2004 5:04 AM >   Posted by K.A.O.S. Emma, by your logic Jesus, Ghandi, Martin Luther, Arlo Guthrie, George Washington and countless other "heroes" were evil. I mean come on. Dude, you're putting huge words in her mouth there. She never said she was evil, nor did she say trespassing was evil. All she said was she was a criminal (which technically most of us here are), and that trespassing was wrong. You're trying to impune her position by implying that she would think Jesus, Ghandi, and Martin Luther are evil men. She said NO such thing. [last edit 12/2/2004 5:06 AM by White Rabbit - edited 1 times] Underground Ozarks http://www.undergroundozarks.com Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Kansas micro  Gender: Male Slowly I turned  |  Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) <Reply # 182 on 12/2/2004 5:07 AM >   F, and what's Arlo Guthrie even doing in that list?! Kay O. Sweaver  Location: Montreal, Quebec Gender: Male Happiness is saying yes more often than no.  |  Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) <Reply # 183 on 12/2/2004 8:21 AM >   Just following standard UER rebuttal proceedures. I simply can't understand anyone saying that they knowlingly do things that they believe are wrong. It makes no sense. If you think something is wrong, then you don't do it. Isn't that the definition? Otherwise you would be constantly bearing guilt over your actions when clearly the opposite applies, you're proud of your actions. But this is an issue for the other thread I started on personal defenses for UE so... back to this thread's designated flaming. ========================== Amy Smith is an infected slut IIVQ  Location: La Sud-Est du cité majeur du North-Holland (Bijlmer), .NL Gender: Male Back in Urbex!  |  |  |  |  Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) <Reply # 184 on 12/2/2004 10:15 AM >   Posted by K.A.O.S. so... back to this thread's designated flaming. Let's not do that, but only post intelligent replies. A few points: as pointed out, there is a huge difference of scale between wrong and evil. There also is a difference between misdemeanors (such as trespassing) and crimes (such as GTA or Murder) Although many people thing you're wrong when committing misdemeanors and evil when committing crimes, there is no defined scale of comparison between them. They are totally different concepts. The law is there to protect society against members of the society. Not to protect you against yourself (unfortunately, lawmakers violate this rule more and more thus stopping darwinism, but that's matter for a whole different discussion) Shame that no one commented on the idea of my "UE code of Ethics Contract". Tijmen Posted by MapMan | 18/9/2005 19:25 | Hedy Lamarr made porn? Posted by turbozutek | 20/9/2005 2:29 | Dude, educate us! manitou  Location: Mississauga/Toronto/Waterloo Gender: Male I was born with an inherent knowledge of every abandonment in the world!  |  Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) <Reply # 185 on 12/2/2004 6:27 PM >   I have been reading this thread since its creation. I suppose it is time I made a contribution, though I think that the major points have already been covered. The continuation of UE was never threatened to begin with. I fully recognize that there are a number of individuals out there who refer to themselves as explorers however commit flagrant violations of UE ethics and go so far as to brag about them to the media. There are people on this site who have stolen from sites, tagged sites and damaged sites either in an attempt to gain entry or just for the hell of it. Do I have solid proof of any of this? No, however given the number of people registered on this site it is a statistical probability. These individuals do pose a threat to the credibility of the community as a whole, however they will not be the downfall of UE. The activities of others in abandoned sites who gain knowledge of these buildings from our websites and put them to the torch will not be the downfall of UE either. No matter how many people are intent on vandalizing buildings there will always be a percentage, no matter how small, that have a vested interest in the building for their own, legitimate, reasons. I believe that the proper UE community represents that small percentage, however our voices our often drowned out by those individuals who would prefer to say "fuck ethics, trashing a building is the shit! UE kicks ass!" This, of course is not UE and as I have mentioned in previous threads it is essential that the legitimate UErs be the ones that represent the community so that it may be portrayed in the most truthful light. Despite bad press, the flamewars on this site, idiots trashing building while "exploring", etc. the future of UE is not in danger. The fact that we are having this debate is clear evidence of the security of the future of UE. In the event that these boards become stagnant and we are all to apathetic to debate ethics, discuss sites and critically analyze our hobby, then I would start to worry. The fact that we are debating here over our views of what UE should be will allow UE to continue on securely. Personally I don't feel that the Urbanaut idea will go far and I doubt that if we all converted from "UErs" to "Urbanauts" there would be any marked improvement in UE as a whole. In a community as large as ours though, there is a need for differing factions in order to ensure that the community advances as a whole. I think AV said it best with: "What I'm saying is: buildings and locations come and go. There'll always be a new place, always new explorations. I don't think we need an organized club with rules and officials to satisfy our curiosity about the world around us." That couldn't be more true. www.dkphotogroup.com Sleazy Santa  Location: New York City I love to break stuff and steal from UE sites  |  |  |  Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) <Reply # 186 on 12/6/2004 4:09 AM >   All I'm hearing is "There's too much Bad Blood in UE.." and I can only see your little tea party starting a Civil War.. It's just unnecessary Sleazy Santa's in this Hoose- Moonwalked Back into a Moose- long story short, by the end we were both covered in blood and urine http://ExpeditionNYC.com MatC  Nobler Donor Location: ENY Gender: Male Accepted everywhere  |  |  Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) <Reply # 187 on 12/6/2004 4:34 AM >   Posted by Sleazy Santa and I can only see your little tea party starting a Civil War. Actually, a tea party started the Revolutionary War... but point taken. The people who come out to UE get-togethers are usually the more committed and serious explorers (though not always), and undoubtedly these meets are good for increasing trust and cooperation among people and groups. So maybe planning more get-togethers/expos/cons/etc. is a good way to foster better overall relations, especially since I'm sure everyone is at least a little bit paranoid about using the Internet to discuss this hobby. (Plus it's a lot easier to get mad and flame someone who you've never met than if you've hung out with, and UE'd with, that person before.) I'm not sure that meets would help establish any kind of cohesive community that thinks and acts similarly, and agrees upon on issues (like media exposure, ethics, etc.) -- even if that were a laudable goal -- but at least it would inject some often much-needed real-world perspective into these types of discussions. -- Mat "We shall not cease from exploration / And the end of all our exploring / Will be to arrive where we started / And know the place for the first time." - T.S. Eliot, excerpt from "Little Gidding" Duke  Noble Donor Location: Awww-shitby, Ontario Gender: Male Move it or lose it  |  Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) <Reply # 188 on 12/6/2004 5:57 AM >   I haven't chimed in on this thread yet so I figured now's as good a time as any. Basically, the way I look at it is that no matter what we do, no matter how much we separate ourselves from vandals, we're always going to be associated with them. Trying to come up with new nomenclature, or a new group identity does little more than promote an elitist environment. Rather than try to disassociate ourselves from the jackasses out there, we would do better to try and educate them, which we do with our very presence on this forum. Most of us here promote good ethics, and it's a big issue, shows up a lot in the threads. In this way we're leading by example, and while we may not reach everyone those whom we do will in turn help keep things clean so to speak. So a couple jerks may be calling themselves explorers and smashin stuff, big deal. That's their problem and chances are they won't be around too long if they're just going to be goin around wreckin shit. While they may seem to reflect poorly on the community as a whole from an outsider's point of view, they really don't represent us. A google search for Urban Exploration pulls up infiltration and UER respectively as the first two results, not "Joe's Smashetorium: Urban Exploration/Demolition homepage OMFGZ t3h l337!!!!!!!11" stick a fork in me, I'm done Contrary to popular belief, death isn't just for dead people. I know I was surprised too! It can happen to anybody! Horses, fiddler crabs, even a potato can die! - Tick Anymouse  Location: Calgary, AB Gender: Male  |  |  |  |  |  Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) <Reply # 189 on 12/6/2004 7:58 AM >   I am proud of Skaught - he has started a flamewar that is so far ten pages long and 189 posts. This can only be topped by political flamewars in Other : ) I don't consider UER an overly positive influence. The "shopping-list" style database, the vast expanse of bandwagoners and wannabes that have no idea what is going on. Those who think that they need to dress in full camo and carry five radios in order to explore the closed gas station on the corner. It does not foster positive development for UE, it's just a breeding ground for ignorance. heh - trying to keep the flame war going, let's see if we can hit a new record : ) Plytheman  Location: Lawrence, Massachusetts Obey The Deer  |  |  Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) <Reply # 190 on 12/7/2004 1:43 AM >   I think the best thing to do is go completely underground. No media attention at all... people can't be interested in what they dont know about. No bad attention if theres no attention to begin with. I'm achin, I'm shakin, I'm breakin, Like Humans Do!! -Byrne Anymouse  Location: Calgary, AB Gender: Male  |  |  |  |  |  Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) <Reply # 191 on 12/7/2004 3:56 AM >   Posted by Mad McCarthy I think the best thing to do is go completely underground. No media attention at all... people can't be interested in what they dont know about. No bad attention if theres no attention to begin with. That's a terrific idea if it isn't too late. Although it would involve everyone either taking their websites down, or securing them like mad. UER would have to cease to exist - or be password protected invite only, with strict entry guidelines. I don't think it would go - a lot of people really like the website side of it, although I do advocate moving further away from it - UEA meets every wednesday, for example - usually between 3 and 20 people show up and we always have a good time - never fighting. Ninjalicious  Gone, but always with us Location: Toronto  |  |  Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) <Reply # 192 on 12/7/2004 9:23 PM >   Posted by MatC The people who come out to UE get-togethers are usually the more committed and serious explorers (though not always), and undoubtedly these meets are good for increasing trust and cooperation among people and groups. So maybe planning more get-togethers/expos/cons/etc. is a good way to foster better overall relations, especially since I'm sure everyone is at least a little bit paranoid about using the Internet to discuss this hobby. I'm not sure if I agree with you that the kind of people who come to meets are the more serious and committed explorers -- I think they're just the more social explorers. But I agree with you that meets help develop a positive community, and that people tend not to throw their feces around as much in a mall food court as in say, the Other forum. Posted by Duke Rather than try to disassociate ourselves from the jackasses out there, we would do better to try and educate them, which we do with our very presence on this forum. Most of us here promote good ethics, and it's a big issue, shows up a lot in the threads. In this way we're leading by example, and while we may not reach everyone those whom we do will in turn help keep things clean so to speak. I totally agree with you. I don't think the people with slack ethics should be driven out or told they aren't explorers, we should just continue to explain the long-term and broader benefits of a lower-impact sort of exploration. Posted by Anymouse I don't consider UER an overly positive influence.... It does not foster positive development for UE, it's just a breeding ground for ignorance. heh - trying to keep the flame war going, let's see if we can hit a new record : ) Thanks for explaining; I was wondering what the hell the point of your post was. Ninj http://www.infiltration.org nd31   |  Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) <Reply # 193 on 12/8/2004 12:05 AM >   Posted by MatC ...especially since I'm sure everyone is at least a little bit paranoid about using the Internet to discuss this hobby. Frankly, I'm more weary of meeting people I met online, regardless of if I can trust them or not. Yeah, I know none of you are psychotic pedophiles, yet the idea of meeting people is still foreign to me, even though opportunities have arisen in the past for other forum's and online games and such. Ergh, sorry for the tangent. -MisfitStyle-   |  Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) <Reply # 194 on 12/10/2004 11:14 AM >   I think, after more than a year of being on this forum, I feel comfortable with the idea of meeting some of you and putting faces to the names. Of course, this applies more to some than others, but I feel that way nonetheless. Too bad most of you aren't around Belleville, that would make it a lot easier I think it's just about time for another Mochi meet. "I feel like I just got in a battle of wits with some kid in a helmet I found licking a window." Need help? Please use the Contact a Mod forum — I'm slow to see PMs. um...Vince  Location: Toronto Gender: Male  |  Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) <Reply # 195 on 12/12/2004 6:41 AM >   One definition of ethics is "the principles of conduct governing an individual or group." In the context of this discussion, defining the ethics of UE isn't necessarily the same as our broader sense of morality in general, i.e. the ethics of being a good citizen. It's quite possible to define a set of UE ethics that already assume that trespassing is status quo for our practice. The reason developing ethics for a given practice is to reflect on the moral dilemmas of specific actions. There are valid arguments for disagreeing with our trespassing laws. While these laws are in place to protect the privacy of individuals and groups, are often to protect peoples safety by keeping them out of hazardous environments, there are also situations where properties that should be public are made private, buildings of historical significance are abandoned and left to rot, and so on. I'm not saying there's necessarily going to be a clear right or wrong on every topic, but there's certainly enough gray area to argue that one can break the law by trespassing and still be behaving ethically. One's system of ethics may assert that it's more important to document a building of architectural significance slated for demolition than to respect local trespassing laws; it's a matter of what really serves the greater good. (Again, I'm not trying to launch a discussion on specifics here, I'm just pointing out an example of how ethics can conflict with law.) Many people here clearly give a rats ass about ethics, and they're entitled to their point of view. But I think it's narrow minded to assume that everyone concerned about ethics is trying to white wash what they do to appease their conscience or the general public. What's wrong with actually caring about the consequences of one's actions? And frankly I think that the discussion of ethics, whether or not you want to be ethical yourself, is a good thing for everyone. Isn't it better to have some kind of idea about what your actions may lead to, even if it's just for your own self interest? um...Vince. UER Forum > Archived UE Main > An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread) (Viewed 3486 times)  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10  All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire. To contact webmaster, or click to email with problems or other questions about this site: UER CONTACT View Terms of Service | View Privacy Policy | Server colocation provided by Beanfield This page was generated for you in 140 milliseconds. Since June 23, 2002, a total of 741686805 pages have been generated.