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 Control
 
Location: NYC, All day every day.
Because it's expected
 |  |  | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 60 on 11/8/2004 7:33 PM >
|  | | | Posted by Rev. Skaught
That is is a prejudicial comment. You do not know what will happen and have made assumptions.
An urbanaut would have no power to police anyone moreso than they have already.
Ya someone can call the cops but they do that now. I have done it. We had soem explorers here who were having raves in sites and who burned down a building. They were endangering lives and comitting arson. I do not care what group I am a part of I will call the cops when people are risking others for personsal gain or are comiting felonies.
Unfortunately, they try to use the title of Urban explorer to justify themselves. Totally rediculous but we have power to stop them and as a result the police now think an urban explorer is an arsonist.
If he had called himseofl an urbanaut, an official press release could have been issued saying this perosn is not one and is full of shit. As it is stands we cannot do a thing.
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That's pretty screwed up about that one situation with the raves and the fire, but, I don't think the police would ever think an explorer is an arsonist.
If a cop ever asks me why I am someplace unusual, I say it's because I'm a photographer. Most have never even heard of UE where I'm from. Generally, a cop can tell if you're up to something bad or not just by the way you present yourself. If they can't figure it out, the DA or the judge will. I don't care much about getting caught, because I know in the end the truth will come out. If you're not doing anything seriously wrong, you have absolutely no reason to fear.
As for policing each other even within your group, you've still got rules on how that will be handled, and the design of those rules in and of themselves makes it easy for someone to break those rules while no one else is around. Proving someone stole something while no one else is around is impossible. Let's say you, me, and someone else went and explored something, that 3rd person goes back to the location at a time when he knows no one else will be around, and loots it. What's to stop him? how is he to be caught and expelled? It could have been anyone. Hardened Criminals ( who don't exactly hang out online much) break and enter buildings all the time.
Anyway, you're right, it is a prejudicial comment I've made, and I'm sticking by it. Why? Because I've seen this sort of thing happen before and it became nothing but a nausance to those that were not a part of it, and it eventually fell flat on it's face. I don't believe you or anyone else can create a community composed of people on the interent that will not eventually start looking down upon and or lashing out at others for not following your standards. Even if you do, those that choose not to be a part of it will be very suspicious of it.
In short, I think it would just devide the community and cause a lot more problems than you care to imagine, and in the end, since there are rules that can be worked around, the concept would be empty.
The Zoo York Goon Squad.
If it looks good, Loot it. |
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The Hitman's Daughter
   
Account Closed
Location: ottawa, canada
Gender: Female
hot pavement.
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 61 on 11/8/2004 7:35 PM >
| | | | Posted by Rev. Skaught
Again a prejudice. The world wildlife fund tries to save seals, does that mean if you are not a memeber you like to club seals?
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It's not prejudice at all. I'm not saying that's what it means, i'm saying that's the impression it gives. And judging by the responses you've gotten in this thread, i'm not the only one who gets this impression.
Posted by BigPoppaMikey
I would have to agree with Hitty on that one. What does it say to others if you are NOT part of this group?
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"hitty"? lol!
richellesart.com
From now on and until the end of time, "Hip To Be Square" will conjure images of bloody bodies being hacked apart with axes.
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Control
Location: NYC, All day every day.
Because it's expected
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 62 on 11/8/2004 7:38 PM >
| | | | Posted by Rev. Skaught
Says who? I have seen lots of people callng themselves explorers who do terrible things to the UE sites. there is nothing to prevent any criminal from callng themselves an explorer and making us all to be explorers. Amd it has happened.
No one can presume to claim ownership of the word urban explorer. but a group of like minded responsible explorers can take claim to copywrited term.
I have. . .
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Says who? says me. I just said it.
There's a spot not far from where I live - more or less everyone in NYC explored it and left it in fine shape. Now, a few months later, it's trashed, it's graffitied, and I can safely say it wasn't anyone calling themselves an 'explorer' that was responsible for it.
Again, you can call yourself a ninja for all the cops care, if you're a bad guy bent on distruction or looting, they'll figure it out. If they don't, a judge will. if you're doing nothing but taking photos, you need not fear.
The Zoo York Goon Squad.
If it looks good, Loot it. |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 63 on 11/8/2004 7:46 PM >
| | | | Posted by Burzum
understood... which is why i feel this idea is non-functional. however, if you still want to attempt it, i think this is the route you would have to take - i just can't imagine UErs submitting to outside policing.
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Outside? I don't get it. It is internal, UE'rs for UE'ers.
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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BigPoppaMikey
This user has been banned. See the banlist page for more details.
Location: Milpitas, California
Gender: Male
Don't follow me unless you want to...
| |  |  | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 64 on 11/8/2004 7:48 PM >
| | | | Posted by BigPoppaMikey
I would have to agree with Hitty on that one. What does it say to others if you are NOT part of this group?
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You still did not answer the question. I think it is valid.
Wishing I was Jack Dalton just to have all the cool leftovers... |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 65 on 11/8/2004 7:50 PM >
| | | | Posted by Burzum
considering the difficulty you seem to have holding a conversation without resorting to insulting those who criticize your ideas, i have trouble picturing you as the new, more diplomatic face of UE. you might want to take a more "high road" approach if you want to sway people's views.
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I think swaying Mike's views is not the intent here. In fact it is not my intent to sway anyone's view, it is my intent to make sure that those who are voicing an opinion do so with all the info and a full understanding of the issue.
There is is a difference between open minded and gullible. If someone admits to doing something wrong which outside even the accpeted ethics of the ue community as a whole are we required to accept that individual?
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 66 on 11/8/2004 7:52 PM >
| | | | Posted by BigPoppaMikey
You still did not answer the question. I think it is valid.
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It says you are not a member. Just because you do not join the World wildlife fund that makes you are a seal clubber?
Lors of people support seals in other ways. But some feel the WWF is the best way for them. Other choose Greenpeace, others do things in their own way. Does not mean thay like to club seals.
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 67 on 11/8/2004 7:55 PM >
| | | | Posted by Control
Again, you can call yourself a ninja for all the cops care, if you're a bad guy bent on distruction or looting, they'll figure it out. If they don't, a judge will. if you're doing nothing but taking photos, you need not fear.
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You are right, at the present we have little to fear, well except that the cop might draw his gun on you (which is usally not an issue I suppose but it is easier to get shot with a gun pointed at you).
I am most interested here in the future of UE, in 20 years when I am in my 50's will UE be a household word and will there be laws against it making the risks way to high? Will it be becasue UE was misunderstood by the authorities? I do not know but I can certainly concede it is possible.
I have a meeting to go to. I exapct by the time I get back to my office this will be 20 pages. I just hope everyone who posts, makes sure they read the whole thing before posting or this could get repetative 
[last edit 11/8/2004 7:56 PM by Skaught - edited 1 times]
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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The Hitman's Daughter
Account Closed
Location: ottawa, canada
Gender: Female
hot pavement.
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 68 on 11/8/2004 7:59 PM >
| | | | Posted by Rev. Skaught
It says you are not a member. Just because you do not join the World wildlife fund that makes you are a seal clubber?
Lors of people support seals in other ways. But some feel the WWF is the best way for them. Other choose Greenpeace, others do things in their own way. Does not mean thay like to club seals.
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So how are you at all like Greenpeace? What is your proposal?
You seem to be pretty hypocritical. Crying that people are being prejudiced. Aren't you the one who threw a tantrum about the private gun forum, claiming that it should be taken down because explorers shouldn't be talking about guns, assuming that every explorer who goes hunting is a gun-crazy lunatic? That was pretty prejudiced if you ask me.
This thread is going nowhere fast.
richellesart.com
From now on and until the end of time, "Hip To Be Square" will conjure images of bloody bodies being hacked apart with axes.
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jeremyk
Location: montreal
Gender: Male
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 69 on 11/8/2004 8:07 PM >
| | | | Why would you wanna "promote a positive image to the community as a whole?" It seems like this whole thing is much more "sustainable" if people who aren't involved don't even know the community exists. Let people get caught for trespassing be called trespassers. Nobody who catches you is ever going to think it's OK that you were where you were as long as you had some list of rules you adhere to and a card you can flash. Nobody is ever going to tighten their security because people who don't belong to some specific group are known to operate in the area.
And come on. Elected investigators? Official complaints? This is some 4th grade treehouse stuff.
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The Hitman's Daughter
Account Closed
Location: ottawa, canada
Gender: Female
hot pavement.
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 70 on 11/8/2004 8:12 PM >
| | | | Posted by jeremyk
Why would you wanna "promote a positive image to the community as a whole?" It seems like this whole thing is much more "sustainable" if people who aren't involved don't even know the community exists. Let people get caught for trespassing be called trespassers. Nobody who catches you is ever going to think it's OK that you were where you were as long as you had some list of rules you adhere to and a card you can flash. Nobody is ever going to tighten their security because people who don't belong to some specific group are known to operate in the area.
And come on. Elected investigators? Official complaints? This is some 4th grade treehouse stuff.
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couldn't agree with you more.
part of the reason why i somewhat disagree with UE in the media. I'm on the fence about that one though...
richellesart.com
From now on and until the end of time, "Hip To Be Square" will conjure images of bloody bodies being hacked apart with axes.
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Control
Location: NYC, All day every day.
Because it's expected
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 71 on 11/8/2004 8:34 PM >
| | | | Posted by Rev. Skaught
I am most interested here in the future of UE, in 20 years when I am in my 50's will UE be a household word and will there be laws against it making the risks way to high? Will it be becasue UE was misunderstood by the authorities? I do not know but I can certainly concede it is possible.
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It's possible but it's doubtful me thinks. There are already laws on the books that cover most of UE.
A bigger threat, at least here in the states, is this 'war on terrorism' stuff - which has been used as an excuse to crack down on all sorts of previously under the radar hobbies. Railfanning is a good example: loads of people like hanging out by the tracks taking photos of trains that go by - and loads of them are now being stopped and questioned by cops who are terrorism paranoid (since so many chemicals travel in tanker cars) and think it incrediably odd that anyone would want to photograph a train for the sheer heck of it, much less know what type of car is carrying what, why type of engine it's being hauled by, etc.
If UE is to be saved from becoming more illegal than it is, the 'war on terrorism' is byfar a bigger threat, at least around here.
The Zoo York Goon Squad.
If it looks good, Loot it. |
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uair01
Location: Rotterdam.NL
Gender: Male
-=|x|=-
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 72 on 11/8/2004 8:39 PM >
| | | | Are skaters, hackers or graffiti artists better organized than Urban Explorers?
Do they have a code of ethics? Who cares?
In the good old days of the mailing lists I once made an idiot of myself by proposing to organize ourselves in an organization with membership, a magazine etc. I even wrote to the "Center for Land Use Interpretation" (this is much cooler than it sounds - www.clui.org - look at their misson statement!) to ask if we could become a branch organization (they declined). Everyone thought it was stupid idea.
On the other hand - birdwatchers, plane-spotters, train-buffs have their organizations and memberships. Why not we?
So : are we closer to the graffiti artists or the plane-spotters?
Or maybe animal-rights-activits? Squatters?
Geocachers are relatively unorganized.
Now what are the axes along which we can place UA/UE:
- criminality
- organization level
- artisticity
- sportivity
Gangs = 100, 100, 0 0
Skaters = 10, 30, 20, 100
Graffiti artists = 40, 10, 100, 30
UA/UE = 10, 20, 50, 25
Now - my model tells me we don't need more organization
"Not to look behind a door is an insult to the door, and the reality it is hiding." |
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Burzum
Noble Donor
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 73 on 11/8/2004 8:57 PM >
| | | | Posted by kazil
Now what are the axes along which we can place UA/UE:
- criminality
- organization level
- artisticity
- sportivity
Gangs = 100, 100, 0 0
Skaters = 10, 30, 20, 100
Graffiti artists = 40, 10, 100, 30
UA/UE = 10, 20, 50, 25
Now - my model tells me we don't need more organization
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brillant! i love it... particularly the word "sportivity" - that is going immediately into my vocabulary.
www.rouskrew.com
because evil won't just do itself. |
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HauntedPA
Location: Anywhere and Everywhere
Gender: Female
What do you mean the rum is gone?!
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 74 on 11/8/2004 9:35 PM >
| | | | All this talk of "organization" is a bit scary. Would it be so off base to call it "organized crime" if there was such a thing in existance? I think that UE as a whole needs to be almost a solitary endevour. Nothing larger than a few people in a local area at best. Once you start talking national or even worldwide levels the whole organized crime thing comes into play. Somehow I don't see how that would benefit UE as a whole.
Am I completely off base here?
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 75 on 11/8/2004 9:37 PM >
|  | | | You're actually remarkably on target with that post HauntedPA. What we do can in fact be targeted as *gang* activity by the odd definitions of the laws in some places...
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Giblet
Location: Atlanta
Gender: Male
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 76 on 11/8/2004 9:42 PM >
| | | | I don't think this is a stupid idea.
I don't think this is a bad idea.
I think this is a monumentally-mediocre and mind-numbingly non-idea - the result of way too much free time and daydreaming by a person of good intentions and possibly frail wit. Perhaps that person was in an altered state of mind at the time.
UE is an inherently non-conformist activity. He who would pigeon-hole me with such a pithy name like "Urbanaut" is likely to get their leg peed upon, or get themselves (and their Star Wars action figure collection) duct-taped to the nearest wall for their effort.
My recommendation: put out that joint and get some sleep.
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HauntedPA
Location: Anywhere and Everywhere
Gender: Female
What do you mean the rum is gone?!
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 77 on 11/8/2004 9:42 PM >
| | | | Never thought of it in the gang aspect of things, but I could see how it could be misconstrewed that way as well Jester. Good poing. I must ponder on that some more now.
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Detroit
Moderator
Location: Ottawa /Gatineau /Montreal
Gender: Male
4-aminophenol and 2-5% potassium hydroxide
| |  | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 78 on 11/8/2004 9:47 PM >
| | | | Rev. Skaught, I think you have a noble idea but the concept is flawed.
There have been several similar concepts discussed on UER in the past and each time it became painfully clear that no matter how good the idea was there are simply not enough "explorers" who want, or see the need for a "collective" that would tell them what they could and could not do.
Besides the obvious fact that many people who are interested in UE are quite anti-establishment, and even those of us who do like rules and order participle in UE as a hobby, something to do outside of our normal “structured” lives.
You must remember that Urban Exploration is a JUST a hobby, a past time, nothing else. It is not a sport or a competitive activity. It is just a broad term that covers the activities of a bunch of people who like to see and explore places that most “normal” people do not.
Many months ago I suggested a very similar idea. I even researched the laws governing the formation of clubs and associations. Many people who I spoke with before I suggested the idea publicly warned me that few if any UERs would be interested.
They were absolutely correct.
To be honest at first I was surprised by the tepid response my idea received. But then I stopped and asked myself if I would be comfortable abiding by someone else’s rules even if they were pretty much the same as my own. I had to admit to myself that I would not be.
I don’t need someone else telling me what to do. The government does enough of that for me already.
Those who have explored with me know that I follow the UE code of ethics pretty much to the letter. I do what I believe is rightand ethical. Of course it would be nice if everyone did as I do but they don’t. People do what THEY are comfortable doing.
Look at it this way:
I brush my teeth in a particular manner that I believe is correct. However it's quite likely that everyone else has their own method of brushing. Heck, some people may not even brush at all. No matter how hard I try to convince other people to brush like me they with undoubtedly continue to do as they please. I have no authority to tell them to do other wise. Why on earth would they bother listening to me?
The concept of an organised body that would represent “ethical” UER's sounds really nice, but it will not work.
It cannot work.
An Urbanaut is just a name, a word. There is no substance to the term. Your proposed group would lack any authority to enforce who could use that term and what behaviour those people would partake in.
I work in an environment that puts me in close contact with law enforcement officers every day. Back when I hatched my “great” proposal I discussed my ideas with many of them. The reaction I got was always the same. "Trespassing is trespassing. We don't care if you are the King of England or drunken bum. If you break the law you will be prosecuted. An association of criminals is just what it sounds like, organised crime. They politely advised me that that was a very bad label for any organisation".
Many of us share your concerns about the future of UE but quite frankly there is nothing any of us do. With heightened security restrictions and ever higher landowner liability the number of easy accessible sites may indeed shrink but I am very sure that there will always be something neat to explore just around the corner or under your feet.
Keep practicing good ethics and explore with those people who do. If someone does something that is seriously criminal like large scale theft, vandalism, or arson, report them. That is ALL any of us can do to promote responsible UE.
[last edit 11/8/2004 9:51 PM by Detroit - edited 2 times]
The end of the beginning is the beginning of the end. |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 79 on 11/8/2004 9:49 PM >
| | | | Posted by HauntedPA
Never thought of it in the gang aspect of things, but I could see how it could be misconstrewed that way as well Jester. Good poing. I must ponder on that some more now.
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Any collaboration to commit a crime by a number of people, can end up falling under gang related laws. Some forum members that ran afoul of the law (while not breaking any law mind you) were informed of that fact.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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