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 tekriter
 
Location: in the Hindu Kush
Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
 |  | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 100 on 8/10/2004 3:45 PM >
|  | | | Oh, come on. Don't take your ball and go home because you didn't win.
I think you miss the point, or at least ignore it again and again.
Indulge us fools and repeat yourself if you have to. I don't mind. I don't think you have addresssed the key issue at all yet. I would like it more if you would respond to the questions I asked, rather than deflect or defer.
It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| |  | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 101 on 8/10/2004 3:56 PM >
|  | | | Posted by tekriter
Oh, come on. Don't take your ball and go home because you didn't win.
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Of course, you're assuming it's really his ball... Given his habits, I'd be surprised if the ball wasn't stolen. Sorry, couldn't resist...
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Wolf413
 
Location: Fifteen minutes away from you by car, tops.
| | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 102 on 8/10/2004 4:27 PM >
| | | | tux, ninj, tek, jester...I agree with you guys. I'd say it's an age thing but I know not all of you are as old as me.
Maybe an integrity thing, both personal and site-wise?
Nobody's going to change anybody's mind here, all we'll be able to do is agree that we don't agree and move on.
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Wolf413
Location: Fifteen minutes away from you by car, tops.
| | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 103 on 8/10/2004 4:31 PM >
| | | |
Maybe an integrity thing, both personal and site-wise?
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That's *NOT* meant as a swipe at anybody, either, just an observation.
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uem-Tux
Iron Wok Jan
Location: Montreal
Gender: Male
UE Geek
| |  | | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 104 on 8/10/2004 4:41 PM >
| | | | Posted by Ninjalicious
I agree with almost everything you, Tekriter and Jester are saying to NVKahos, but on this point I think you're going a bit too far. He is an explorer, first and foremost, he just disagrees with us about a major ethical issue. He doesn't go exploring for the sake of scavenging - he goes exploring for the sake of exploring, and then steals in a way that he doesn't see as causing any major harm.
I think he's very short-sighted and either doesn't notice or doesn't care about the broader harm he is doing to his fellow explorers - but I think he is our fellow explorer. This is part of why I would so much like to change his mind rather than simply disowning or dismissing him.
Ninj
http://www.infiltration.org
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Well, maybe I'm not being clear here. I'm not trying to say "I cast thee out!"
Only that, since he's admitted to understanding the fact that stealing has the potential to harm the practice of UE, and yet he still steals... why does he call himself an explorer? Why would he knowingly do things that can harm something he purports to love?
I love the places I explore. I love to see new things, I love to show people around stuff I've already explored, and though I'm not generally a really social person, I've found meeting people who share this interest to be intensely satisfying too. It's for that love that I'd never steal anything from a site like, say, the McGill steam tunnels. I don't want to lose my access to the place, I don't want its beauty to be diminshed for future explorers, and I especially don't want to be ostracized by other explorers. OPEX woulda sucked if you were a branded thief... who would have explored with you?
I mean, just, the reasons to not steal are clear. There are common sense reasons, social reasons, and just good old karma too.
I see what you're saying Ninj, but even the seperatists here in Quebec don't call themselves Canadians. While NV's motives for exploring might be as pure as anyone else's, his methods have the potential to do a lot of harm to the hobby as a whole, and since he's completely aware of that, I don't see why he'd even WANT to call himself an explorer.
Urban Exploration Montreal
Why are you the way that you are? |
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Servo
| | Re: The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.]
<Reply # 105 on 8/10/2004 5:36 PM >
| | | | Wow, ok, lots of shit flying around and some good arguments too.
Basically, I see the arguments going like this:
- 1. All stealing is wrong.
- 2. But I only steal a little bit!
- 3. But if you do that, and the next guy does that, and so on, there will be nothing left, and you make us all look bad when you do it.
- 4. [Other party returns to 2]
If you steal and vandalize, FINE. It's dumb for the reasons outlined above and in half the posts on this thread, but no amount of hot air I can blow around will change your mind. The one thing I do ask is that you not cast the rest of us as being the same as you, especially to the media and general public. We're already seen as on the same level as vandals and thiefs, so let's not make it any worse, umkay?
And please note I didn't specify who I am directing this at because it applies to anyone in a similar situation to NVK.
[last edit 8/10/2004 5:46 PM by Servo - edited 2 times]
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oCtAnE
  
Location: TORONTO, CANADA
Gender: Male
EXPLORER AT LARGE
| | | Re: The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.]
<Reply # 106 on 8/11/2004 2:01 AM >
| | | | Posted by tekriter
Why don't you spend your valuable time NOT reading this post or making pointless off topic replies? |
If 10 minutes is valuable, then maybe I'll go outside and play hopscotch.
When I do come on for those 10 mins and see a topic like this, I like to add my two cents, not just because I can, but because this is something that I feel strongly about.
I'm not going to sit here for those 10 mins and trash people if I don't have to. I am going to make my point, and make sure everyone understands. So, without any further adieu, here it is:
Stealing is bad, no matter how you suger-coat it. I'd rather be labelled as a trespasser instead of a thief. When you steal from a site, your taking away the uniqueness and mystique of that site, and ruining it. The motto, "Take only pictures, leave only footprints...." is how ALL urban explorers should conduct themselves during exploration.
Going to the media and telling them, "Oh yeah, we take mementos..." is friggin stupid! Why don't you put a flash ad on the UER site saying, "URBAN CAT BURGLARS ANONYMOUS" already. We don't need bad press, so smarten up!
Furthermore, if we are all going to convey our opinions, let's stop slagging each other in the process. Alrights? Good. Thank you.
My 10 mins is up....LOL
-Octane
FUELED BY OCTANE. |
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IIVQ
Location: La Sud-Est du cité majeur du North-Holland (Bijlmer), .NL
Gender: Male
Back in Urbex!
| | |  | | Re: The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.]
<Reply # 107 on 8/15/2004 1:41 PM >
| | | | *sigh* lotsa shit flowing around here indeed.
Where is the line in "stealing"?
At my home and my parents home combined I have about 5 road signs, 2 roadside construction lamps and 15 roadside reflector poles.
From a juridical point of view, I have stolen all those.
See it as a souvenir from driving over town's roads everyday of my life.
I honestly beleive the only thing I have ever stolen was a pencil, as I accidently didn't give it to the cashier while handing her for more than EUR 50 worth of stuff and paying it, I found it later in my pockets.
I also walked out of a computer store once without paying for a package of cd's. Realizing this about a minute later, I returned to the store and decided to pay for it anyway.
All the roadsigns, I "found" (which is still, juridically, stealing) on the street or in a ditch. They were no longer serving their function as they were lying down in the grass or in a ditch, but I would have saved the state some money if they wouldn't have to make new poles/signs, but could have put the old ones up again. OTOH, I have seen with my own eyes that the state put new reflector poles in anyway, while the old ones were still as good as new - just in a ditch.
I do not have in my mind a clear definition of the border between "stealing" and "taking", I decide on a case-per-case base what I do, but if a policeman would catch me "taking" something, I would not deny his claim of me being a thief. My risk, My thrill.
I tell everyone the UE agadium: "don't take anything but photographs, don't leave anything but footprints". Yet the nice lamp to my right tells people who are interested otherwise. It's an elevator function light which was completely embedded in mud. I spent hours cleaning, de-rusting, and polishing it. I replaced all lightbulbs. I'm still deciding whether or not to change the wiring - it needs to have the wiring changed but I don't want to as it deminishes the original character of the thing, though no one sees the wires anyway. I'm preserving it. If Weymann Aufzug or the building that this item came from would ever want it back, I'd give it to them, with pleasure (and pain in my heart - it has become my baby).
My ethics and morals, mijn normen en waarden.
Mine, not yours. They might coincide, but they are not the same, just as my ethics and morals are not the same as mine from 5 years ago, and will not be the same in 5 years.
Tijmen
Just my 20 euro thought (about how much I spent in cleaning the light).
Posted by MapMan | 18/9/2005 19:25 | Hedy Lamarr made porn?
Posted by turbozutek | 20/9/2005 2:29 | Dude, educate us! |
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The Hitman's Daughter
Account Closed
Location: ottawa, canada
Gender: Female
hot pavement.
| | | Re: The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.]
<Reply # 108 on 8/15/2004 4:29 PM >
| | | | embarassing article. just read it now. UE in the news is always so embarassing regardless of what is said in the actual article.
richellesart.com
From now on and until the end of time, "Hip To Be Square" will conjure images of bloody bodies being hacked apart with axes.
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oCtAnE
Location: TORONTO, CANADA
Gender: Male
EXPLORER AT LARGE
| | | Re: The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.]
<Reply # 109 on 8/16/2004 11:52 AM >
| | | | Posted by IIVQ
Where is the line in "stealing"? |
The line is drawn quite easily. Taking something that isn't your IS stealing, regardless what it is.
At my home and my parents home combined I have about 5 road signs, 2 roadside construction lamps and 15 roadside reflector poles.
From a juridical point of view, I have stolen all those. |
Yes you have. And here where I live, you can be prosecuted heavily for stealing roadsigns that belong to the municipality/city/whatever. The only difference with your case is that you haven't been caught.....YET.
And Hitman, I agree that the UE segment was embarassing. Any UE press is bad press. Should be avoided as much as possible.
Another thing that bugged me about the Hamilton article was one of the UEers trashing Toronto. No matter where we are from, we are all UEers. So what's the point in talking smack about Toronto??? If you don't like it, then don't visit. Don't go throwing in a quick attack like that, especially with the media who have a habit of distorting things dramatically.
-Octane
[last edit 8/16/2004 11:56 AM by oCtAnE - edited 1 times]
FUELED BY OCTANE. |
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El_Gordo_Uno
Location: Wenatchee, Washington
Gender: Male
This post brought to you by Allan Smithee
| |  |  | | Re: The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.]
<Reply # 110 on 8/16/2004 1:03 PM >
| | | | The solution:
Do what you like and account to no one but those who have real power over the situation, I.E the police. No one elses opinion really matters.
So if you take things just keep it to yourself unless you want the 'morally enlightened' hordes to pounce on you.
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges |
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oCtAnE
Location: TORONTO, CANADA
Gender: Male
EXPLORER AT LARGE
| | | Re: The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.]
<Reply # 111 on 8/16/2004 6:07 PM >
| | | | Posted by El_Gordo_Uno
So if you take things just keep it to yourself unless you want the 'morally enlightened' hordes to pounce on you.
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So basically you are conveying to everyone that "It's alright to steal."
How in the world do you justify this "Take what you want" mannerism?????
-Octane
FUELED BY OCTANE. |
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IIVQ
Location: La Sud-Est du cité majeur du North-Holland (Bijlmer), .NL
Gender: Male
Back in Urbex!
| | | | | Re: The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.]
<Reply # 112 on 8/16/2004 6:16 PM >
| | | | Posted by Octane
How in the world do you justify this "Take what you want" mannerism?????
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I don't.
Read my post.
Tijmen
Posted by MapMan | 18/9/2005 19:25 | Hedy Lamarr made porn?
Posted by turbozutek | 20/9/2005 2:29 | Dude, educate us! |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.]
<Reply # 113 on 8/16/2004 6:20 PM >
| | | | Posted by IIVQ
I don't.
Read my post.
Tijmen
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I believe he was referring to El_Gordo_Uno's post, since that's who he quoted.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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oCtAnE
Location: TORONTO, CANADA
Gender: Male
EXPLORER AT LARGE
| | | Re: The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.]
<Reply # 114 on 8/16/2004 6:33 PM >
| | | | Indeed it was Gordo that I was replying to. He's implaying that as long as you don't tell anyone that you are stealing, that it's ok. In other words, "It's okay if you don't get caught."
I mean, that is something I would expect some dumb kind from elementary school to say, not an adult or young adult. By being an explorer that steals, you're giving the rest of us explorers that DON'T steal a bad name.
-Octane
FUELED BY OCTANE. |
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uem-Tux
Iron Wok Jan
Location: Montreal
Gender: Male
UE Geek
| | | | Re: The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.]
<Reply # 115 on 8/16/2004 11:12 PM >
| | | | My solution to this one would just be to not call yourself an explorer if you steal. Disassociate yourself from the community, because if you steal you're helping to corrupt something that is more or less pure and so far not fucked with by the powers that be.
If those of us that don't steal, and are vocal about thinking that's the right decision are so unbearably self-righteous, and you guys that steal but think it's harmless think we're a bunch of squares with a distorted sense of reality, then why would you want to belong to our club?
I know some would disagree with me, but I don't think being an explorer is all about attitude and motivation, (though those are big parts of it) it's also about methods. I know that a lot of you are purist explorers in that you explore for the same reasons as us and just don't see how stealing can be harmful... but take a minute to read the article mentionned earlier in the thread. Do you see how an article like that spun slightly differently could be damaging to all of us? Do you see how having the general public or anyone in authority associate stealing to exploring is dangerous?
I know a lot of you would call my attitude on this unnecessarily rigid, but I really think that all it might take for things to get a lot harder for us would be for a few negative articles to appear in the papers.
Why risk it? Why endanger a hobby you love for the sake of a souvenir? Let your memoires and photos be your souvenirs... leave the stuff where it is.
Urban Exploration Montreal
Why are you the way that you are? |
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oCtAnE
Location: TORONTO, CANADA
Gender: Male
EXPLORER AT LARGE
| | | Re: The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.]
<Reply # 116 on 8/17/2004 1:14 AM >
| | | | Couldn't have said it better myself. Hats of to you Tux.
-Octane
FUELED BY OCTANE. |
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BigPoppaMikey
This user has been banned. See the banlist page for more details.
Location: Milpitas, California
Gender: Male
Don't follow me unless you want to...
| | |  | | Re: The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.]
<Reply # 117 on 8/17/2004 2:56 AM >
| | | | Posted by Lord Nosferatu Von Kahos; Esquire
YOU happen to think stealing is morally wrong... others obviously don't. Everyone takes things from sites whether they admit it or not, those not admitting it are being fucking hypocites, so why don't we just pull our heads out of our asses and drop the whole damn redundant discussion?
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No, NOT EVERYONE steals from sites. Only those with no ethics or morals do. Please do not group those who have not committed an atrocity in with those that have. Stealing, pilfering, or plundering is wrong no matter how you look at it. Grow up and be responsible, not a jerk...
BPM
Wishing I was Jack Dalton just to have all the cool leftovers... |
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Downtown D-Low Brown
Location: The Ill Noize.
Gender: Male
The game is the game.
| | | Re: The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.]
<Reply # 118 on 8/17/2004 6:47 AM >
|  | | | Posted by BigPoppaMikey
Only those with no ethics or morals do. Please do not group those who have not committed an atrocity in with those that have. Stealing, pilfering, or plundering is wrong no matter how you look at it. Grow up and be responsible, not a jerk...
BPM
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This may be one of the more philosophically unsound, if common place, arguments I heard on this whole topic. Since this is a philosophy argument, and I have good knowledge of that area in regards to ethics and morals, let me jump in here...
Those of you arguing for "All stealing is wrong" are trying to appeal to some sort of Moral Absolute, an idea that a moral precept is universal to all people, and not just to an individual based on his own experience, and you imply by this statement that this precept is true and that you can logically prove it.
So I respond by saying: Prove that statement is universal and true to all people.
You can not. And here's why:
There is no one Universal Source, beyond the individual, from which morality arises that can logically be proven to exist; see the last paragraph on moral absolutism here:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/moral%20absolutism
That statement you made is patently unprovable.
I suggest reading a healthy course of David Hume, Soren Kierkegaard, Friedrich Nietzsche, Albert Camus, and indeed any of the major skeptical and existential thinkers to see how quickly any moral, religious, or any other system that holds claims yo absolute morals and ethics turns into so much flotsam and jetsam under the knife of logic. Right/wrong, good/evil... these are all relative, friends and neighbors. "Truth is subjectivity"
-Soren Kierkegaard. Sorry. Only taking a leap of faith into irrationality can save you from total subjectivity in morals and ethics.
~D
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
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Indigenous Insurgent
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Gender: Male
Only the Truth is revolutionary
| |  | | Re: The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.]
<Reply # 119 on 8/17/2004 6:49 AM >
| | | | 6 pages so far of everyone throwing their 2 cents in (sometimes several dollars worth), so I thought I would too.
As far as stealing goes, I don't really approve of taking large or valuable things, but I myself have been known to liberate little tokens of my visit. Usually small insignificant things, a pebble, a snippet of film, a bottlecap, a pen with the place's logo on it, etc.
I've come across valuable things before. Things I knew would be easy to slip in my pack and later sell to a local shop or on Ebay for a quick buck, but I decided against it. Not to say it wasn't tempting.
My basic rules of thumb are:
1) Never take anything that's value goes beyond the memories it represents.
2) Never take (or leave, for that matter) anything that would make the next explorer's visit any less enjoyable than yours.
I would like to clarify that these are my own personal ethics. I do not discourage nor encourage anyone else to follow them.
As far as mentioning UER and the places you've explored in to the press, I'm going to have to toss that in my Bad Idea bin. Urban exploration is dependant on staying below the radar. Paradoxically, the fewer people that know about UrbExing, the greater the number of people who will be able to enjoy it.
[last edit 8/17/2004 6:50 AM by Indigenous Insurgent - edited 1 times]
Those who make peaceful change impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. |
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