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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8   UER Forum > Archived UE Main > The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.] (Viewed 2833 times) NoSuchPerson  Stop, or I'll ask you again!  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 40 on 7/27/2004 5:23 AM >   Posted by Milhouse Van Houten I can't even think of anything to say anymore... I probably shouldn't. All I can say is that its my fault that Hamilton is now the laughing stock of the UE community. If you feel like gunning me and my family down, PM me and I will give you my address. I'd consider to stop posting as well, but there are some people here who are still my friends. Matt; It's hardly your fault. It isn't your words in the article, so I can't possibly see how it could be your fault at ALL. I have no problems with you now, nor have I ever. You cannot control what your friend NVK does and says to the newspaper media. Why did he say what he did, I dunno...maybe he likes the attention of the media - who knows..but bottom line is that it's not your fault. We'd (or at least, I'd) hate to loose an explorer such as yourself on this board. People who call themselves explorers but are nothing more than a theif and a vandal...I can do without those. As for Av's comment about taking a card being different to stealing a car - that's not necessarily true. In the eyes of the law, there are two kinds of theft - Theft over $5,000 and Theft under $5,000. Guess what? The punishment is exactly the same, they both carry a maximum term of 10 years imprisonment and a $10,000 dollar fine. So are they the same thing? No, probably not, but in the eyes of the law, they are - so keep that in mind if you DO decide to take any souveniers. I'm not about to push my ethics on anyone in here, I'm sorry if some of my posts have come across that way, but I just can NOT stand people who come on here with the attitude of "I can do whatever I want, fuck y'all". UER is an online community. If you don't "jive" with the overall community, well, maybe it's best you leave. We aren't all about ethics and putting down those who decide to steal and vandalize things. We're here for one thing - fun. What's fun for me isn't going to be the same as everyone else, but I think we need to find a common ground for what "is" fun - and that's UE. If you want to go to a site and smash lightbulbs, break windows, spraypaint doors, steal signs or whatever - that's totally your business, and nobody here has any right telling you to stop. However, be forewarned that should you decide to do this, you have now detatched yourself from what the population of UER condones. As soon as you admit to stealing or whatever, you have removed yourself from the community of UER, and as such, are no longer an explorer - by the common defintion. There's nothing wrong with that, you are your own person free to do whatever you choose, but as I stated, as has many others, you're going to have to deal with your decision. Going around, especially to the media, saying you are part of an online community such as this, but also go around stealing and vandalizing (and admitting it), is a very bad thing, as it makes all of us look like theifs and vandals to the public - something we all know isn't true. That being said, I'm SURE there are members on here who do take the odd trinket or have tagged before, but don't say anything on here about it. While I'm not necessarily "cool" with that, at least they have the respect not to post it in a public forum for all to see and riddicule. Bottom line - if you're going to steal, vandalize, tag, etc... Keep it to yourself, and don't go the media, because if the owner of, say, Lister Block, REALLY wanted to, it would be extremly easy for him to have the Police knocking at your door. I won't get into it, but you probably DON'T want to deal with a Theft Under, Mischeif Under, B&E and Proceeds Obtained by Crime charge - each carries a nice jail term and/or fine. Just be careful. Take care of yourself - and each other. (Yes, I do feel like this is Jerry Springer sometimes!) Edit: This WHOLE post wasn't aimed specifically to you Matt...just the first paragraph saying how it's NOT your fault about the article..sorry about that, bad wording I spose! -Ex [last edit 7/27/2004 5:24 AM by NoSuchPerson - edited 1 times] Unit calling radio say again? tekriter  Location: in the Hindu Kush Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 41 on 7/27/2004 1:47 PM >   Realize the difference between style and ethics. Any one that climbs is part of the climbing community. There is no way to climb alone, and it is always climbers who have to rescue other climbers. There were many different styles of climbing: sport (light weight high speed); trad (old school, expedition style clean pro), aid (climbing the gear), gym (indoor), but ethics were another thing altogether. The climbing community turned its back years ago on people that used pitons because they scarred the rock, and left marks that not only changed classic routes, but turned the public against the climbers who wished access to the rock. Other Climbers will go so far as to cut your rope if you tie directly to one of the 400 yr old trees along the Niagara escarpment if you don't use a chafe pad. The ropes were wearing through the bark and killing trees causing conservationists to try to ban climber access to the crags. Moral Apathy is as despicable as thievery itself. Whether you actively condone it or just allow it to happen, you share just as much of the responsibility. That responsibility is what it means to be part of a community. Look what happened in Europe in the late '30's. Some people wanted to remain neutral and they could have made the difference between war and peace just by taking a moral stand and not remaining silent. Insisting that you don't want to voice an opinion is not a position, it is a weak way out of taking responsibility. People are free to make choices about their actions and opinions, but the moral principle that govern or influence conduct are a community thing. This is not something that you can dictate to someone, but it is something we need to talk about. You are right, you can't tell that idiot that stealing is wrong and expect him to get it. You can, however, make it clear that you don't agree. The fact that he stole things is not the issue either. It is evident here that not only did he steal and tell the public he (and by inference we) steal things, but he defends his actions to the rest of us. Have some courage and take a stand because this issue will affect all of us one way or another. Let me make my position clear: ANY stealing is wrong, ANY tagging or destruction is wrong. These activities affect all of us negatively, and we would all be better off without them. It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen Jester  Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada Gender: Male Always just out of sight...  |  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 42 on 7/27/2004 3:03 PM >   NVK's belief that everyone does what he does follows a standard piece of psychology. It's a subconcious belief in us. Someone that cheats in their relationships will tend to be more suspicious of their spouses because they think everyone is like them. A thief is the same. People develope a mentality that makes them think that if they do then everyone does. An example of a thief: My motorcycle was stolen several years ago, they broke up the chop shop that had it, and a guy was charged. At court, the thief was worried about his stereo in his car, worried it would get stolen while he was in court being charged with auto theft. Ironic. It's no different for the person that is called nieve for trusting others, simply because they expect people to be trustworthy like themselves. So I don't blame him for his belief, but he does need to realize the truth. The problem is, the general populace will follow this mode of thinking. If one urban explorer is a thief, all urban explorers are thieves. I don't like going on and on about ethics all the time, but the point needs to be made, and made regularly, that there are indeed extremely ethical people here. I don't spout shit I don't believe or follow myself. I see thievery as morally wrong and I will say so at any given opportunity. If it shows just a few people here and there that we aren't all thieves, then it's worth all the arguements that ensue, in my opinion at least. I do hope people start to realizee that they don't live in a bubble. That anything they do can and will send ripples out to the rest of us. I have no problem with the media, they simply use what you give them. Don't give them shit like was in that article... It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. Nosferatu Von  Location: Ancaster Gender: Male  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 43 on 7/27/2004 3:07 PM >   This thread is no longer about the article, its about me being an idiot. Not like the sunject change will mean anything.... everyone needs something to bash other people over to make themselves feel good. Anyway, I'm going to forgo this forum and make one for my friends I explore with. Seems your Phenomena is a Phenoma-NOT. Jester  Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada Gender: Male Always just out of sight...  |  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 44 on 7/27/2004 3:13 PM >   Posted by Lord Nosferatu Von Kahos; Esquire This thread is no longer about the article, its about me being an idiot. Not like the sunject change will mean anything.... everyone needs something to bash other people over to make themselves feel good. Anyway, I'm going to forgo this forum and make one for my friends I explore with. Way to go, ignore any chance to learn from a mistake. It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. NoSuchPerson  Stop, or I'll ask you again!  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 45 on 7/27/2004 3:18 PM >   Well fortunatly, www.urbanthievery.ca is an available domain. -Ex Unit calling radio say again? Roadwolf  The Wolf! Location: Buffalo, NY (formerly Toronto, Canada) Gender: Male Living on the Road and Rails.  |  |  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 46 on 7/27/2004 4:07 PM >   The media is a very powerful thing. Many people believe everything that is said on the radio. and with good reason... most of what is said is true. But when the public doesn't know alot about something and you tell them about it.. they will believe that every person who is interested or partakes in that activity, follows the same rules. I myself have been interested in getting the media to do a story on Urban Exploration but, being involved in the broadcasting industry myself, I am waiting a while, and would plan everything out so there is no way that they could say anything bad about it. The media tends to cut stuff up and you have to always be aware of that and not say anything that they can use to make you look stupid, because they will... If you steal or if you tag places, that is your personal problem and I really can't force you to believe either of those activitys are right or wrong. But what i do strongly suggest to everyone is that, if you go to the media, do not make us (as a community) look bad. Ofcourse we will be pissed if someone goes to the media and paints everyone involved in UE'ing with the same brush. It's all about pleasing the public, make them think it is a harmless hobby... then they will not think much of it. If you say you steal or tag... then people will think your responsiable for the abandoned building next door to them looking like a gang hide out with all the graff painted on it, or maybe they will think urban explorers took their tool box which was in their run down barn... Anyhow, just remember that the media is very powerful... it can screw you (and all of us) over very easily. Roadwolf, Add me on Skype or Steam: Roadwolf611 uem-Tux  Iron Wok Jan Location: Montreal Gender: Male UE Geek  |  |  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 47 on 7/27/2004 4:17 PM >   NV, this thread's not about how you fucked up, it's basically turned into "why stealing hurts urban explorers". You can see the sense in that. No one is going to be an asshole and lord it over you if you admit that you made a mistake and intend to change your ways. cjbsexx (in the Quebec forum) posted fake exploration pictures he actually stole from an official website but then went on to become a respected poster. If you're incapable of changing your attitude, I won't miss you, but I have this hunch (from how you write your posts) that you see the sense in what we're saying. Urban Exploration Montreal Why are you the way that you are? NoSuchPerson  Stop, or I'll ask you again!  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 48 on 7/27/2004 4:25 PM >   I certainly hope so too. You don't strike me as a bad person, I just have severe issues with the stealing/tagging. Bottom line - If you want to keep doing it, that's fine, but PLEASE don't make public statements on here and in the media about it, and I won't think any less of you for it. -Ex Unit calling radio say again? Nosferatu Von  Location: Ancaster Gender: Male  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 49 on 7/28/2004 5:40 AM >   It would be easier for the masses to accept the fact that some people who use for forum take small souveniers. I'll just stop talking about my ethics on the forum and not talk to the media anymore, which I didn't plan to do anyway. It's been done, I'd rather work towards something else (mind you the interview was literally dropped in my lap... I didn't have time to plan out what I was going to say exactly). I have however 'seen the light' in the tagging regard and no longer do it. Seems your Phenomena is a Phenoma-NOT. Stewie  Location: Hamilton, Ontario Gender: Male kill your idols  |  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 50 on 7/28/2004 11:39 AM >   See everyone? He admitted it, and hes going to revise his ways. Now I'd appreciate if everybody would drop the NVK hating vendetta here. If you're not willing to, at least don't drag his name through the mud anymore in public. I think its only fair to let him post without everyone being biased with whats in the past. Mistakes were made, recognized and either apologized for or will not happen again. > The hierarchy of power dictates that the person with the most power does the least amount of work and retains the highest benefit. tekriter  Location: in the Hindu Kush Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 51 on 7/28/2004 1:14 PM >   Posted by Lord Nosferatu Von Kahos; Esquire It would be easier for the masses to accept the fact that some people who use for forum take small souveniers. I have however 'seen the light' in the tagging regard and no longer do it. Really, Milhouse? Sounds like more of the same. Souvenirs? Urban Theivery? Do you "infiltrate" your friends houses in Ancaster and take "souvenirs"? Seems like you don't have any ethics to discuss on line, just a raging case of moral decay complicated by some ambiguous, self serving semantics. Where do you draw the line? I took this car as a "souvenir" because it has been abandoned for at least three hours. I didn't rape her, we just had disagreeable hate sex. Geoffery Dahlmer didn't have heads in his freezer, no, those were "souvenirs". Genocide, ... no it was Ethnic Cleansing, ...no it was strategic demographic relocation to underground safe areas. (lots of souvenirs in those pockets, though) It would be easier for the masses to accept that some people who live in Germany just aren't Aryan. Since when has the easy way ever been the morally correct path to take? Rwanda? Bosnia? Kosovo? Germany? How is it right for you to abscond with anything that you yourself decided was worthless? How is that any more right than destroying walls that you alone have decided were worthless? I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks theives are scum, but thanks anyway, because we are all better for having seen what lies on the low road. It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen Ninjalicious  Gone, but always with us Location: Toronto  |  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 52 on 7/28/2004 1:34 PM >   I think you guys have been too harsh on Kahos. As strongly as I disagree with his practice of "taking souvenirs" -- and I could scarcely disagree with it more strongly -- I still consider him a fellow explorer and worthy of enough respect that I would rather talk to him about our disagreements rather than drive him away. It's clear that what he practices cannot fairly be called "urban thievery", in that he's obviously primarily motivated by a drive to explore, not by a drive to steal. Certainly, in terms of the greater good, it's unacceptable that he steals from sites and later boasts about it and inaccurately portrays it as a common practice. But y'know, he's not evil, he's just a little bit selfish at this stage of his game. As I've said here before, so was I, once upon a time. When I was younger I took "souvenirs" far too often. Fortunately, I got smarter and developed stronger morals. I bet if we spoke to Kahos and people like him respectfully, while letting them speak their piece too, we could make them see why their actions have an impact that goes far beyond themselves, and maybe make them see where we're coming from, and that we aren't just on a moral high horse because we get a kick out of talking down to and dismissing people and then all playing pile-on once we can tell someone is down for the count. Jumping on the Kahos-bashing bandwagon is easy and safe, especially at this stage, but I think one of the reasons Kahos has decided to just say "fuck off" and leave to start a new community (which, if it happens, will almost certainly lead to the entrenchment of his current viewpoint) is because "fuck off" is all he's been getting from most of the people here. If we could save our contempt for the actual act of stealing without necessarily extending it to the individual as a whole, I think we'd all be a lot better off. Yes, associating stealing and urban exploration is absolutely unacceptable. But to write the guy off completely is premature. Ninj http://www.infiltration.org Stewie  Location: Hamilton, Ontario Gender: Male kill your idols  |  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 53 on 7/28/2004 2:26 PM >   I couldn't of worded that better myself. Thank you Ninj. I know Kahos would appreciate if he could stand his ground and explain himself without people launching personal attacks at him and what not. You're right, he, I and all the other people in the group we usually explore with, are in it for the exploration... we don't just decide, hey! I'm gonna go steal a chair from Lister Block! Its more like, Hey! We didn't get a chance to see the whole of Lister Block yet, lets go! Some in our group will refuse to take anything at all, while some like Kahos and I would like a physical memento of the trip. I have never taken anything more than either a pice of paper or a mens room sign. I use them to either carry on my research of the particular building, or to decorate my room with it I'll let him speak now, I was just talking of what I know from my point of view. I know Kahos does not want to leave, he enjoys it here... he just doesn't like how some people not only find it necassary to push their ethics on others, and to degrade into personal insults. > The hierarchy of power dictates that the person with the most power does the least amount of work and retains the highest benefit. Ninjalicious  Gone, but always with us Location: Toronto  |  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 54 on 7/28/2004 3:08 PM >   Posted by Milhouse Van Houten I have never taken anything more than either a pice of paper or a mens room sign. I use them to either carry on my research of the particular building, or to decorate my room with it That's an incredibly selfish thing to do, and you should stop. There's no need to diminish the experience and sully the reputation of your fellow explorers. Just take a picture. Posted by Milhouse Van Houten I know Kahos does not want to leave, he enjoys it here... he just doesn't like how some people not only find it necassary to push their ethics on others, and to degrade into personal insults. Well, those are two different points that should be tackled separately. Having an ethical discussion is a very positive thing, I think, provided it is a discussion and not merely a rant. I, like most of the others who've joined in this conversation, will never just sit and stew quietly while someone boasts about how they've enriched themselves at the expense of a site and of the hobby generally, because I care too much about what's at stake. But I agree with you that it doesn't need to descend to the level of personal insults. (I draw some distinction between saying "you're being selfish when you steal artifacts from a site in order to decorate your home" and saying "you're a rotten, selfish person". I try to criticize the behaviour rather than the person. Of course, in the very long run, you are what you do.) Ninj http://www.infiltration.org Stewie  Location: Hamilton, Ontario Gender: Male kill your idols  |  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 55 on 7/28/2004 4:54 PM >   Posted by Ninjalicious That's an incredibly selfish thing to do, and you should stop. There's no need to diminish the experience and sully the reputation of your fellow explorers. Just take a picture. Personally, I really don't see how it is but I probably shouldn't... you're right, there really is no reason I should at all... considering most of the things I take (repair notices, calendars, signs) just end up sitting in a closet in my room, to meet the same fate as they would have inside the place I got it from. I don't have a camera either, but I'll make it a priority to get one, so I can remember things that way instead. I'm trying to be more of an ethical explorer and less of... the other, I guess this would be a good place to start. [last edit 7/28/2004 4:55 PM by Stewie - edited 1 times] > The hierarchy of power dictates that the person with the most power does the least amount of work and retains the highest benefit. Ninjalicious  Gone, but always with us Location: Toronto  |  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 56 on 7/28/2004 5:58 PM >   Matt: Cool. And if you head back to those sites, you might consider putting back some of the stuff that's now collecting dust in your closet. Also, I have an old 35mm camera I can give you if you'd like, though the film and processing will cost you more than a digital camera in the long run. Ninj http://www.infiltration.org tbone  Gender: Male  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 57 on 7/28/2004 6:10 PM >   Posted by Ninjalicious I try to criticize the behaviour rather than the person. if only all replies on this board could be so sensible! Forthright with the deciduous  Location: Hamilton Gender: Male The leaves will fall... down, because of gravity  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 58 on 7/28/2004 11:53 PM >   Speaking as someone from Hamilton, I'm more concerned with the mention of specific sites in the article than the mention of stealing mementos. As many 'positive' articles as there has been on UE, I don't ever see public opinion truly accepting such behaviour. It still is trespassing, it still is (arguably, and relatively speaking) dangerous. I think a lot of people understand that lots of people are very curious about places and things that can be explored, but many factors detract them from doing it themselves, or thinking it is acceptable for others to do so. That said, an explorer in a city that (to my knowledge) has never placed any media coverage on UE saying rather nonchalently that he and his friends steal from sites does not help matters. Enough has been said on that by now, but my point is that I don't think that will put most people reading the article off any more than trespassing in the first place does. Back to my mention of sites, I really don't understand the motivation or utility of mentioning specific sites and locations. It would have been just as easy to mention 'an old factory in the east end of the city' or 'a historic downtown building.' I understand that many of the sites explored in this city are fairly well known and presumably patrolled periodically by police, but why draw any more attention to them? I don't see any positive result from doing so, and it could have easily been left out. Media stories on UE will shape people's perception of it, since they likely have no other connection with it. I would hope anyone considering interacting with the media plans out their approach rationally so as to come off as positively as possible, if they must put themselves in the media in the first place. I don't want to start guessing the motivations of various explorers to do news stories, but I don't personally see the use in it. Much of the attraction seems to be the fame..... for your screen name at least. I also have yet to see a story that doesn't paint explorers as slightly crazy, anti establishment, vigilantes that are thumbing their nose at most everything. Talk as much as you want about taking only photographs and leaving only footprints, but to the news, you're still a sideshow, specially reserved for the human interest slot at the end of the newscast, or the back of the Sunday supplement. Jef  This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information. Gender: Male Hey Look at me....  |  Re: Hamilton spectator article. <Reply # 59 on 7/31/2004 8:09 PM >   Posted by Forthright with the deciduous Speaking as someone from Hamilton, I'm more concerned with the mention of specific sites in the article than the mention of stealing mementos. I must agree with this. Now for the topic of the ethics. Ethics to me is basically a religion and no diffrent. I peronally Hate all religions. I despise them. Ethics are alot like rules and who makes these rules? the goverment, no wait what we are all doing is illegal so no its not the goverment. um fellow explorers? Yes its them who make up these so called ethics. In these abandoned building we are talking about the things that have been taking by who ever are not missed by anyone. I'll admit to taking one of the goblets metioned in the artical and I personally dont give a flying fuck what any of you have to say about it. The building where we got them is schedualed to be torn down in the near future and they have the barriers already put up in place for the tearing down of the place. We took them saying to ourselves and each other that if we dont take them these will either be destroyed or taken by the fucking construction crew themselves. I dont know what else that was mentioned in the artical and noe do I give a fuck. hey there is this one building that has a fire hydrant in it, I have always wanted one. I think I'm gonna go get it. No I wont because that is something to the building that makes it interesting to the other explorers. A cup from a building that is about to be torn down is not gonna be missed.and after the building is gone what left is there? nothing what so ever. I will appologize for how long it took me to reply to this thread but i was gone away for a few days. so now if you'd like to all gang up on me like you did kahos. GO FUCK YOURSELVES CAUSE I DONT BELIVE IN YOUR FUCKING GOD... We must also go out and meet the enemy before he reaches our shores. We must defeat him before he attacks us, before our cities are laid to waste. William Lyon Mackenzie King, Prime Minister of Canada from 1921-1926, 1926-1930 and 1935-1948 UER Forum > Archived UE Main > The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.] (Viewed 2833 times)  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8   All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire. To contact webmaster, or click to email with problems or other questions about this site: UER CONTACT View Terms of Service | View Privacy Policy | Server colocation provided by Beanfield This page was generated for you in 125 milliseconds. Since June 23, 2002, a total of 741674095 pages have been generated.