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 Flash
    
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Gender: Male
Stuck in 1995 and loving it....
 |  | The Ethics of Stealing [was: Hamilton spectator article.]
< on 7/23/2004 2:45 AM >
|  | | | There was an article in Monday's paper on Ue'ing
Has any one seen it.???
Some one at work mentioned it to me.
Apparently talks about Stelco Buildings....
[last edit 8/10/2004 4:49 PM by uem-Tux - edited 1 times]
After months of reaserch I have come up with the following fact. The Internet = 3% usefull stuff and 97% gapping orgie porn lesbian upskirt huge penis enlargement double machine sex |
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Stewie
  
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Gender: Male
kill your idols
| |  | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 1 on 7/23/2004 7:30 AM >
| | | | ? Shit I wish I could of caught that.
> The hierarchy of power dictates that the person with the most power does the least amount of work and retains the highest benefit. |
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Stewie
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Gender: Male
kill your idols
| | | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 2 on 7/23/2004 2:45 PM >
| | | | Got the article today in the mail, my good buddy in jail scans the news every day and was able to catch it. Its a REALLY long one, one of those half a page articles so I won't copy it into here but basically based on an interview of NVKahos that took place last month and which I missed out on due to unforseen circumstances.... I'm pretty pissed about it now, however my UER alias (Sugarton Matt Smooth) did get a mention  . Anyway, Kahos I'll show it to you when I see ya tomorrow.
I wish I had a scanner... bwar. Oh Ninj also got a segment in it... so did Cosmic bard and Kowalski for some odd reason.
> The hierarchy of power dictates that the person with the most power does the least amount of work and retains the highest benefit. |
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kowalski
| | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 3 on 7/24/2004 1:00 AM >
|  | | | I'm so glad to have been name-dropped in this pointless article. *rolls eyes*
Naming all the sites you like to explore was class "A" smart. And that was really ingenius to admit to stealing from them. Bravo.
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Nosferatu Von
Location: Ancaster
Gender: Male
| | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 4 on 7/25/2004 5:34 AM >
| | | | Kowalsko with his usual redundant negative comments. You can't please everyone I guess... or some people aren't happy unless they have something to complain about. It's easier to complain than change.
Seems your Phenomena is a Phenoma-NOT. |
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tbone
Gender: Male
| | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 5 on 7/25/2004 2:15 PM >
| | | | Posted by Lord Nosferatu Von Kahos; Esquire
Kowalsko with his usual redundant negative comments. |
i haven't read the article but "Naming all the sites you like to explore" and "admit[ting] to stealing from them." is never a good plan in my opinion. i think a little negativity is justified.
[last edit 7/25/2004 2:15 PM by tbone - edited 1 times]
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uem-Tux
Iron Wok Jan
Location: Montreal
Gender: Male
UE Geek
| |  | | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 6 on 7/25/2004 4:47 PM >
|  | | | Does anyone have a link or scan or something?
And yeah, admitting to theft? Just like your name Matt, smoooooooth 
[last edit 7/25/2004 4:47 PM by uem-Tux - edited 1 times]
Urban Exploration Montreal
Why are you the way that you are? |
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Roadwolf
  
The Wolf!
Location: Buffalo, NY (formerly Toronto, Canada)
Gender: Male
Living on the Road and Rails.
| |  | | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 7 on 7/25/2004 4:47 PM >
| | | | i agree with tbone.. that is just asking for trouble.
You should never tell them all of your sites. next thing you know all of your sites will be boarded up or under 24 hours surveilance by an unmarked officer.
[last edit 7/25/2004 4:49 PM by Roadwolf - edited 1 times]
Add me on Skype or Steam: Roadwolf611
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 8 on 7/25/2004 6:29 PM >
|  | | | I had the *pleasure* of reading tharticle in question... And I have to agree with Kowalski. I'm not even going to say anything about the initial ethics of stealing from the sites, but you've taken it to a higher level of stupidity by naming things you've taken specifically from certain places.
In one brush stroke you've painted urban explorers as thieves, and stupid ones at that. While most of the urban explorers that have dealt with the media have worked at painting a mural depicting our ethics and passion for the places we visit, you've now come along and spray painted "we are thieves" all across it.
The only positive to be takes from this article is that it was only in a small paper, and not a major publication.
[last edit 7/25/2004 6:29 PM by Jester - edited 1 times]
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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DTK45
Location: Hamilton
Gender: Male
| | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 9 on 7/25/2004 7:53 PM >
| | | | its what attracted me to here. I would have never really known their was this big of a following behind ue if that article never came out.
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Jef
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Gender: Male
Hey Look at me....
| | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 10 on 7/25/2004 8:13 PM >
| | | | Well I havn't read the article either, but I do think the places that were named were known places anyway in problem areas of the city such as stelco and lister block, possibly the thistle club. I must agree about saying that u have taken things from places, but the way they ment it was as a pointless piece of trash that would get tossed if the building were to get cleaned up, souvenirs as they should be called. I'm sure someone is not going to miss a glass bottle from a building, there is no inventory list of the buildings, I'm quite positive that the building owner is not going to press charges for theft. They are more likely to press charges for trespassing, or even worse break and enter.
I will not call them thieves, I will not say they are criminals, but if any of you do your just being hypocrites, you are all entering a building or drains or whatever. That is illegal in itself, who is to say what crimes worse then the other crime. There is a crime of going around and taking from people’s roadside garbage its called pilfering. The garbage belongs to someone is the local scrap metal collector a thief? Shouldn't we be coming down upon him? Same as when you find a really nice T.V outside and it works, but it was put out for garbage day that is theft. Some people make a living off of doing that. Should they be in jail for garbage picking? Should we be coming down on them? I say fuck no.
I will also say even though I haven’t read the article I do not like the fact that what we do and our hobby is getting in the newspapers. I do not like the fact that our places may be known, but the fact is that things when not in the mainstream eye will eventually make in into the publics eye. I don't know if any of you attended the raves of the 1990's they were not known, but then all of a sudden they became popular and publicized and now the rave scene is almost dead.
We must also go out and meet the enemy before he reaches our shores. We must defeat him before he attacks us, before our cities are laid to waste.
William Lyon Mackenzie King, Prime Minister of Canada from 1921-1926, 1926-1930 and 1935-1948 |
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kowalski
| | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 12 on 7/26/2004 12:10 AM >
| | | | Nocturnal tourists
Urban Explorers can't resist the lure of the forbidden
By Rob Faulkner
'When I see a boarded-up house with a No Trespassing sign, I think to myself, 'What's so evil in there that I can't see it?' " N.V. Kahos (not his real name) says over coffee at a Gore Park cafe.
"Too many of us think the only things worth looking at in our cities and towns are those safe and sanitized attractions that require an admission fee. It's no wonder people feel unfulfilled ... on their way out through the gift shop."
-- Urban explorer Ninjalicious.
He's 22, lives with his parents in Ancaster and works for a courier company. He's a bit punk in his camouflage pants, leather jacket with pinned-on buttons and taste for The Ramones.
He's one of the locals into urban exploration (UE), an illicit hobby making our downtown a haven for illegal adventure. It's simple, he says. You just go places you're not supposed to. That's why he uses an alias.
Kahos has been exploring for about five years, and tracks his exploits on the website uer.ca. Late at night, or on quiet afternoons, he's been in a graffiti-splashed Ancaster drain, a boarded-up Southcote home that reeks of dead animals, neglected lofts on Dundurn Street South.
Early on, being from Ancaster, he visited the Book House, a two-storey brick home built by a family of German weavers in 1811. It's had several fires and has been abandoned for years. It's one of the highlights of his UE career.
Kahos has posted digital photos of the house on uer.ca: its fireplace, its rotten fridge, its broken second-floor toilet with its pink seat cover. Even one photo with a weird, ghostly white blur in it. It may have been paranormal, he says, and it made his hair stand up on end.
"We try to do as much research on a site as possible," says Kahos, who finds floor plans and UE tips all over the Internet, even on the city's map site. Online, it seems UE is a high-tech hobby like geocaching, in which you find hidden trinkets using a GPS device.
Not so, says UE pioneer Ninja- licious, a Torontonian who coined the term urban exploring in 1996 in his 'zine Infiltration. The dozens of Ontario groups, and hundreds worldwide, are just taking a pre-Internet hobby online.
The web makes researching, organizing and boasting about UE missions easy. But history has much earlier examples of curious adventurers drawn to catacombs (cataphiles), drains (drainers), caves (speleologists) and buildings.
According to Infiltration's website, Philibert Aspairt, perhaps the first cataphile, got lost in the Parisian catacombs in 1793 while exploring by candlelight. His body was found 11 years later.
In 1921, in what may be the first organized group expedition into an abandoned building, Dadaists Andre Breton, Paul Eluard, Francis Picabia and Tristan Tzara visit the deserted St. Julien le Pauvre church in Paris to highlight places "which really have no reason for existing."
In 1977, the San Francisco Suicide Club, which does "fringe exploration," is born and later renamed the Cacophony Society. In 1986, Melbourne, Australia cavers Doug, Sloth and Woody create the Cave Clan, which later absorbs rival groups and splinters due to infighting.
It's not a hobby you'll see on TSN.
"It's kind of anti-authoritarian and attracts people who oppose authority, or at least see a Do Not Enter sign and are willing to accept those risks for themselves," says Ninjalicious, who prints 2,000 copies of his three-times-a-year 'zine that is mailed to Australia and Japan.
For the record: Entering a private building without permission is breaking and entering, a Criminal Code offence that can land you 10 years in jail.
Trespassing is a provincial offence with a $110 fine. Hamilton police don't recall any recent arrests of UE'ers.
It springs from curiosity, drawing adherents like hackers and engineers. Kahos says most locals are young, in their late teens, 90 per cent of them computer geeks.
It's about evasion, so dark clothes are often used. So are tools like two-way radios (to talk to teammates across a big building), rope (to climb when stairs are broken), a flashlight with a red-filter lens (harder to spot, better for night vision), rubber boots, sometimes even hip-waders (for sites like the 150-year-old Thistle Club with very wet basements.)
It's a hobby with a disputed code of ethics. Ninjalicious, who prefers to enter occupied buildings, says "genuine urban explorers never vandalize, steal or damage anything." Like camping, his rule is "take only photos, leave only footprints."
Kahos disagrees. He's taken mementos he's sure no one will miss. Award goblets from the Thistle Club's basement. An old To Do list from the Pioneer Cleaners laundromat inside the Lister Block. One UE'er found a human brain in an old hospital, he says.
"It's a real grey area. You don't take everything in sight but if it's a business card from an abandoned building ... " says Kahos, who resents Torontonians who try to set rules for the whole community. "Exploring has been around since people could stand erect and walk. How do you dictate rules for that?"
Disputes aside, Hamilton is home to a burgeoning UE community who adopt nicknames like Sugarton Matt Smooth, Cosmic Bard, Kowalski. And on uer.ca you can see their favourite spots to explore: Stelco, HMCS Haida, Hamilton Psychiatric Hospital and the 1853 Thistle Club, which once gave Kahos quite a scare.
"Last time we did the Thistle Club, there was a drunken transient near the entrance. It was like, 'Whoa! What are you doing here?' And he was like, 'Well, what are you doing here?'
"We said, 'We're going to go inside to take a look.' And he just said, 'OK, but don't get caught.'" |
[last edit 7/26/2004 12:10 AM by kowalski - edited 1 times]
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Borat
High five!
| | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 13 on 7/26/2004 12:52 AM >
| | | | I'm not too surprised. That's the kind of crap I'd expect to find in the Spectator. Oh well.
Thanks for posting the article!
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uem-Tux
Iron Wok Jan
Location: Montreal
Gender: Male
UE Geek
| | | | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 14 on 7/26/2004 3:22 AM >
| | | | Well, at the very least, the alternate viewpoint (stealing is not encouraged) was presented.
*sigh* Press like this really makes me sad.
Oh, and to respond to ODD_EC:
So, you think stealing and trespassing are the same because both are illegal? You think that I can't say to someone that I believe stealing is wrong, because I trespass for fun?
Here's a thought experiment/bedtime story for you.
One day, while exploring an abandoned building, you happen to see a couple of kids having a fight. Things get a little out of hand, and one kid gets stabbed. He dies right there in front of you, and his murderer walks over to you smiling, bloody hand held out for a shake.
"What the fuck!?" you yell at him, "You just killed that guy and you want to be my friend?"
The murderer, with gore still dripping from his hand points at a glass bottle you've got in your hand.
"Hey" he says, "you and I, we're the same, we both broke the law, right?"
---
So you see, there's a difference between something being illegal and something being morally wrong.
I happen to think stealing is morally wrong, I don't think trespassing is. My reasons for that should be obvious, and if they're not you should maybe re-think why you're exploring.
I also think stealing is stupid. It doesn't take anything more than a dirty old sign or a piece of paper from someplace taken as a souvenir to turn a simple fine for trespassing into a theft charge, and do you know what happens to thieves? They don't get the friendly slap on the wrist so many of us have gotten when we're caught, no, they don't pass go, they don't collect 200$, they're charged and they go directly to jail. Think about that.
[last edit 7/26/2004 3:25 AM by uem-Tux - edited 1 times]
Urban Exploration Montreal
Why are you the way that you are? |
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Nosferatu Von
Location: Ancaster
Gender: Male
| | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 15 on 7/26/2004 5:00 AM >
| | | | So you see, there's a difference between something being illegal and something being morally wrong.
I happen to think stealing is morally wrong, I don't think trespassing is. My reasons for that should be obvious, and if they're not you should maybe re-think why you're exploring.
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YOU happen to think stealing is morally wrong... others obviously don't. Everyone takes things from sites whether they admit it or not, those not admitting it are being fucking hypocites, so why don't we just pull our heads out of our asses and drop the whole damn redundant discussion?
Seems your Phenomena is a Phenoma-NOT. |
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Jupiter
Moderator
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
Boffo's alright... for now.
| | | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 16 on 7/26/2004 5:51 AM >
| | | | Posted by Lord Nosferatu Von Kahos; Esquire
Everyone takes things from sites whether they admit it or not |
What information are you basing that on? UE ethics are ultimately debatable and based upon your own morals, but it's as foolish to believe that everyone takes things as it is to think that everyone will follow the "take nothing but pictures" ethic. I've never taken anything, as I was introduced to the hobby through this board, and basically have learned my moral structure regarding UE because of it (So it's providing a valuable service as well as entertainment.  ) When friends go with me who are not on this board, I explain to them the ethics, and even if they don't understand it, I point out what Tux already did. They're no longer just trespassing, they can be charged with theft. That's usually enough to keep them from taking anything.
Abandoned Planet |
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uem-Tux
Iron Wok Jan
Location: Montreal
Gender: Male
UE Geek
| | | | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 17 on 7/26/2004 5:58 AM >
| | | | Posted by Lord Nosferatu Von Kahos; Esquire
YOU happen to think stealing is morally wrong... others obviously don't. Everyone takes things from sites whether they admit it or not, those not admitting it are being fucking hypocites, so why don't we just pull our heads out of our asses and drop the whole damn redundant discussion?
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Oh, gee, I'm really sorry if I brought to light the obvious disparity in the logic you guys employ to justify your behaviour.
Fact is, those of us that do follow the accepted ethics (and we're not just saying we are, we do) are doing less damage to the sites, less damage to the public image of urban exploration, and not putting our exploring companions at a completely avoidable risk.
There is a clear moral difference between harmless trespassing and stealing. I can tell from the way you're trying to write off this discussion that you know that just as well as I do.
I know that you probably feel compelled to defend your statements in the article to the bitter end, but I don't think anyone would hold it against you if you just admitted that maybe telling a journalist you stole from sites wasn't exactly a great idea, and maybe even said that in the interests of preserving the places you love to explore, and preserving the current pretty much universally positive press the hobby enjoys, you wouldn't steal anymore.
I think in this case that's really the way to go. I'm sorry if I've put you off by stating my opinions harshly, it's just that I feel strongly about the hobby, and clearly avoidable damage like this frustrates me.
[last edit 7/26/2004 6:03 AM by uem-Tux - edited 1 times]
Urban Exploration Montreal
Why are you the way that you are? |
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Stalker
Location: Hamilton
Your Resident Red Commie Bastard
| | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 18 on 7/26/2004 6:41 AM >
| | | | >and if they're not you should maybe re-think why you're exploring.
As long as we are honest here. I would raise the question why people explore. Is it truth feel of exploration unknown, adventure, finding something cool, history, archeology or it's just a way to express your loneliness your disability to find friends, girlfriends and plus luck of simple ability to have fun. Just maybe you're sitting behind that computer monitor and think by doing UE you're the greatest thing since slice bread. Chicks will start fuck you. Friends will rush from all different directions to embrace you and all your enemies will get on their knees in front of you. So stop for a second and think why you're doing UE. It's because you "wannabe cool" or because you're curious Joe inside. Complexes vs being yourself isn’t it?. UE is only about having fun and thats all. So to be even more honest here I would say about 2 things I hate more then anything else in this world which are posers and preachers. I respect peoples ways even if they are different. I respect any info about their ways. I will listen their info and their views, analyze it and make decisions. But I 'll not respect someone forcing his way on me which in his believe is the only right one.
Anyways talking about article. First what you're expecting from Spectator. Second all places in UER DB are public. So cops don't need to read newspapers to find everything they want. And if someone believe that newspaper will make so much difference why I can't find anything about illegal drain hookups in newspaper. I understand that saving kitten from the drain is a really good thing. But don't anyone consider it's a theft of municipal property. Maybe kitten belonged there. Maybe it was a resident of the drain under city protection on full benefits and pension. Penny found of sidewalk is a municipal property. You're stealing from the city. For me there is no difference between picking up penny from sidewalk or doing it in abandoned house. Here is a story. I explored one place and found really good poster from about 1981. I didn't take it. Next time I was there I saw same poster was used for a fire someone set there. Ironic isn't it.
And the last thing about the person everyone talking here. I do explore with him all the time. I already built my opinion on him and if my opinion wasn't that good one I would not explore with him. Simple as that. His best quality is being himself wherever he goes. He is there not to impress he is there to have fun. Which is UE is all about.
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Stewie
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Gender: Male
kill your idols
| | | Re: Hamilton spectator article.
<Reply # 19 on 7/26/2004 7:37 AM >
| | | | Posted by uem-Tux
Does anyone have a link or scan or something?
And yeah, admitting to theft? Just like your name Matt, smoooooooth
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Hmn? I think its time to leave me out of this, my name was mentioned but I did not talk to Rob Faulkner outside of e-mail. I had no help with the article.
Ok here's my view... I don't care what you think of it, I'm just throwing it out there. I have to actually say, Kahos, you could of worded it better. I know, I wasn't there so I can't bitch but it might not of been a smart move to list off those places and especially to admit that we take things.
You've got to remember that this is a paper that everyone in this city reads... including business owners and police. Those people are now going to be watching for us and I wouldn't be surprised if it comes around one night to bite us in the ass. I shouldn't of agreed to do this article... that, or I should of just met the guy myself and talked about the overall aspect of UE... not the way we do it.
With that said, you guys really need to quit bitching how we do things in Hamilton. Kowalski and other Hamilton explorers are valid with their opinion cause they explore here, but anyone else really is just bitching about something that doesn't affect them.
We've gone through this time and time again, it always ends in an ethics brawl. I think its time for people to accept what others do and shut the fuck up. You do it your way, we'll do it our way. If you think we aren't Urban Explorers, fine don't call us that. Call us thieves, we don't give a shit what you think. We're going to keep doing this, and no-one is going to stop us.
[last edit 7/26/2004 7:38 AM by Stewie - edited 1 times]
> The hierarchy of power dictates that the person with the most power does the least amount of work and retains the highest benefit. |
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