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 NoSuchPerson
      
Stop, or I'll ask you again!
 |  | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 160 on 11/12/2004 8:43 PM >
|  | | | Posted by Lord Kahos
In the eyes of the media, we are the arsonists, graffiti artists, transients and drug users. If you can’t handle that label, the one that will never change, exploring is not for you. |
Gee, I like how you left out stealing from that...
-Ex
[last edit 11/12/2004 8:43 PM by NoSuchPerson - edited 1 times]
Unit calling radio say again? |
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Kay O. Sweaver
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Gender: Male
Happiness is saying yes more often than no.
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 161 on 11/13/2004 12:22 AM >
| | | | Honestly the media have been more than fair to us. I don't think I've ever seen an excessively negative slant in a UE article. Shades of truth obviously, but truth. It bothers me when people allow their personal interests to colour their perceptions, particularly when dealing with issues larger than themselves.
Media integrity is at stake. If they didn't mention the occassional crowbar or can of spraypaint then they would be in the wrong for displaying a significant bias and excluding pertinent information. You should all be ashamed of your selfish desire to dictate reality through the media rather than allowing it to do its job of truthful representation.
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Amy Smith is an infected slut |
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Mike Dijital
    
UEDB Moderator
Location: Boston MA.
Gender: Male
UE ver. 1.0
| |  | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 162 on 11/14/2004 7:12 PM >
| | | | isn't this thread supposed to be about wether you want to be an Urbanaut or not
" Urbanaut or Not " sounds weird when you say it out loud,
[last edit 11/14/2004 7:13 PM by Mike Dijital - edited 1 times]
www.deggi5.com / www.mikedijital.com |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 163 on 11/14/2004 8:42 PM >
| | | | Posted by Mike Dijital
isn't this thread supposed to be about wether you want to be an Urbanaut or not
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It was intended more as a general discussion of the UE community and it's future.
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Nosferatu Von
Location: Ancaster
Gender: Male
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 164 on 11/15/2004 5:52 PM >
| | | | We have a whole forum, not just a thread, dedicated to that.
The future of UE will not change. Buildings will become vacant and people will explore them. Drains will be accessable and people will explore them. Why we need to govern the whole thing is beyond me.
Seems your Phenomena is a Phenoma-NOT. |
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Kay O. Sweaver
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Gender: Male
Happiness is saying yes more often than no.
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 165 on 11/16/2004 4:58 AM >
| | | | It is going to fall apart to some extent because of carelessness and stupidity. Despite Skaught's good intentions nothing will be able to prevent that. Yes UE will continue but the opportunities and tolerance will continue to slowly shrink as it grows in popularity. That's the way it goes.
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Amy Smith is an infected slut |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 166 on 11/16/2004 9:29 AM >
| | | | As a person whom I know personally and a Cave Clan member and a vetran seasoned explorer, I value, K's opinion a great deal.
To those that are not up on the ancestry of UE, the cave clan have been doing organized UE longer than most anyone else out there and are what I would consider the originators of modern UE.
Seems most missed the point that my reason for suggesting the concept was to raise these issues and raise awareness in the community for what K just mentioned.
It does seem to have exposed the gross ignorance which I had though was not as bad as it was, as was pointed out by some of my contemporaries, I had too much faith in the average explorer.
My cynicism has jumped one more notch.
It just means those who truly have UE in their blood will have to someday leave the community and find home in perhpas the photography community or I dunno what else.
We will also have our local explorers too. I am very happy that opur community here is quite united in how we want to continue UE here even in the face of the growth and mainstreaming of the hobby. Mainstreaming in and of itself is not a bad thing, but some of the people it attracts are.
[last edit 11/16/2004 9:31 AM by Skaught - edited 1 times]
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Hobbes
Location: Finland
Gender: Male
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 167 on 11/16/2004 2:25 PM >
| | | | This kind of problem is also present with wreck diving, as some divers tend to take anything valuable (and some everything they can get) from the wreck, and thats one of the reasons old wrecks have nothing to see as they have been scavenged for as long as recreational divers have been around.
Actually theres quite a lot in common for the two "sports", wreck diving and urban exploring...
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Nosferatu Von
Location: Ancaster
Gender: Male
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 168 on 11/16/2004 10:11 PM >
| | | | So by that logic, someone who's been say... making model airplanes longer than someone else (or since the 'modern beginning') should be able to say "Use this glue", "Only assemble on oak surfaces" or "Don't use your left hand" because they're more 'seasoned'? I think this is another excuse to make allies by blowing sunshine up someone's ass.
Cave Clan... Ku Klux Klan... who cares? Does it mean you're a better explorer than someone else? No. Does it mean you're a better person? Definitely not.
Seems your Phenomena is a Phenoma-NOT. |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 169 on 11/16/2004 10:23 PM >
|  | | | No, but experience makes a difference. I'd weigh the wisdom of a guy who's explored for years and gained the benefits of other long time explorers more than that of a guy who's got very little experience to base his assessments on exploring on.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Servo
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 170 on 11/16/2004 10:30 PM >
| | | | I guess I should weigh in on this before it heads for the big loxor in the sky. And a disclaimer: any instance of "you" in this post refers to the reader, not some specific person.
Skaught's idea is not without merit. It *is* exclusionary, but guess what -- people can have exclusive clubs if they want to. If they don't invite you, well, tough shit. Basically, this would create a way for those who share a certain set of ethics to identify themselves to each other and the outside world. If that particular group wants to claim they're the only "true" explorers, well... they can do that just the same as those who aren't members can still claim they are "true" explorers.
If it makes you feel bad because you're not a member, and I mean it really really bothers you... maybe you should re-evaluate the choices you make about how you represent yourself in real life, online, and to the media if you want to join badly enough. If you go around calling yourself an "Urbanaut" there's very little anyone can do to stop you, but whether you are a member of the organization or not can be easily determined.
As for the broader topic of ethics... my personal ethics aside, it reflects badly on the community as a whole when people are shown in the media expressing their belief that it's perfectly fine to "salvage" everything in a location, or use destructive means of entry. It isn't so much that these things do happen, but that the media finds out. Like it or not, that gives the general public, as well as the powers that be, the idea that we are ALL like that. I've heard the "you're already committing one crime, so why stop there?" argument but I reject it; you can use that to justify just about anything you want. Trespassing by itself is victimless for most of the places we go; removing or destroying property generally is not (the victim being the property owner).
The opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the opinions of UER or its parent companies, use at your own risk, viewer discretion is advised, yatta yatta yatta...
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Plytheman
Location: Lawrence, Massachusetts
Obey The Deer
| |  | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 171 on 11/16/2004 10:45 PM >
| | | | Posted by Rev. Skaught
It just means those who truly have UE in their blood will have to someday leave the community and find home in perhpas the photography community or I dunno what else.
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The community doesn't make the explorer, the explorers make the community. So say the cops or the feds or whatever eventually shut us down, that doesn't mean we can't still go out and explore. Even if they up security on buildings there will always be places without security.
The internet is great for getting in touch with other explorers and for sharing pictures and stories, but its not integral to the hobby. The fact is that UE is getting more popular and attracting all sorts of people, some favorable, others not, and the reason for that is because of the large UE presence on the web. Hell, the only way I found out about this hobby and nearly all the places I've been is because I found it online and got involved. I'm glad that it was there to introduce me to it and that it can expose others to the hobby, but at the same time it is also seen by people we'ld rather not be running around these buildings. It exposes what we do to the media and the cops.
Separating the uber ethical from the decently ethical UE'ers isn't going to solve anything as long as there are still hundreds of UE sites with location names and details on them. Making the LDB member only is a step in the right direction, making local forums with info user only is good, changing names or not putting names at all should definitely help. Turning UE into a more secretive low key hobby is the only way we'll diseud public interest, rather than being a 'cool xtreme underground fad'
And that's my opinion.
I'm achin, I'm shakin, I'm breakin, Like Humans Do!!
-Byrne |
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Ninjalicious
Gone, but always with us
Location: Toronto
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 172 on 11/21/2004 9:25 PM >
|  | | | I pretty much agree with Kowalski, Avatar, Kaos and Servo. I don't think Skaught's Urbanauts idea is workable, but he did raise some valid concerns. I think those of us who care about the hobby in a long-term way, and aren't just in it for selfish, short-term thrills, need to make extra efforts to lead by example and not get shouted down or drowned out by the idiots who seem to have endless time to post their simplistic "fuck ethics, ethics are stupid, idiots just want to have fu-un"-type messages. And I also agree with Jester that using the media intelligently is one good way to avoid having people like Kahos be the default representatives of the hobby.
Skaught: I think you got too despondent too quickly. I think most people failed to embrace your idea not because they love stealing and smashing but because they worry that the potential hazards of your program might exceed its potential benefits. I don't think it's at all realistic or fair to dismiss 70% of explorers as too stupid and barbaric to appreciate your idea, or to conclude that the hobby is doomed. The idiots here tend to be more vocal than the non-idiots, because that's how idiots are, but I think most people here really do explore with a responsible ethical code that you could respect, even if it differs slightly from your own. Anyhow, I'm sorry you got personally attacked simply because you tried to suggest something new. People shouldn't be discouraged from suggesting new things, even if the suggestion isn't necessarily accepted wholeheartedly. It would be nice if people instead worked on a faulty idea and tried to turn it into a better idea.
THD: I'm amazed that you could have been active on this board for so long and still misunderstand the differences between laws and ethics so massively. Ethical explorers trespass because they don't think it's wrong (trespassing very rarely involves any sort of invasion of privacy, as you argue; personally, I go out of my way not to invade people's privacy). Ethical explorers generally don't steal or vandalize because they think it is wrong. The fact that all three activities are illegal is irrelevant, since the law (which varies drastically from place to place and year to year) doesn't enter into ethical discussions, which are a much more real and important sort of thing.
Kaos: I'm afraid I definitely have seen some anti-explorer articles. They've generally taken the tone "They think it's fun, but we'll see how fun they think it is when they're dead! P.S. It is also illegal."
Ninj
http://www.infiltration.org
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White Rabbit
Women's Advocate
Location: Missouri
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 173 on 11/21/2004 10:11 PM >
| | | | For what it's worth, I seriously considered taking the terms "urban exploration" and "urban explorer" off my site completely, just because there is a certain degree of negative stigma associated with it in the real world.
Also, I think I'm an ethical explorer and I still think trespassing is ethically wrong. It doesn't bother me, because it doesn't really hurt anyone at the end of the day, but that doesn't mean I think it's right.
Underground Ozarks http://www.undergroundozarks.com
Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Kansas |
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Rask
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
Mostly Harmless
| |  | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 174 on 11/23/2004 4:42 AM >
| | | | Sorry for jumping in this thread a little late and replying to an older post, but...
Posted by Rev. Skaught
We are using up a window of time in which we get away with what we do because it is not on anyone's radar in a signifigant way. Times will change and we will wish we had been more proactive to create a different public view when we still had the chance. |
I would have to agree with this point. However, I disagree with the particular path taken.
Rather than form a society around UE, we should present it to the public for what it is: A sport.
It's an activity like mountain-climbing or hiking, it gets our pulse going, and it gives us excercise, both physical and mental (for those of use who like to research our targets and their history). Sure it's fresh, new, and a little extreme, but I'm not worrying about it going mainstream. I'll still be doing it when it's old news.
I talk about UE with everyone around me in a matter-of-fact fashion, and don't dwell on the quasi-legality or secretiveness of the whole affair. My family, friends, employers, and co-workers know what I do.
It's often assumed that as soon as word of this neat new activity gets out, everyone is going to want to do what we do. However, word is already out, and has been for some time. Just because there exists the sport of Tennis, it doesn't mean everyone in the world is interested in playing it. Likewise, I don't see too many people outside of our community wanting to do what we do. Sports often have more spectators than athletes, and UE is no different. Our websites tell a lot of people a good story of an adventure that they're not interested in taking themselves. Their curiosity of the world is satisfied, and they don't have to leave their chair.
We are in fact a fringe activity, not unlike geocaching.
I feel we should encourage positive news about UE when possible (but don't harp on the topic if not asked about it), and keep doing what we do best. Yes, we should have general guidelines, and we do. No, the guidelines should not be concrete rules, because getting urban explorers to follow them is worse than herding cats (or neurotic pumas).
I don't think this window of opportunity is going to get slammed shut in our faces, but we should do what we can to make things easier on ourselves in the future.
On a more progressive note, I feel we should take a step further and reach out to authority when possible, and perhaps set up an agreement that we will report serious crime when we see it (a dead body, a drug-grow operation, an environmental hazard). That way, we're not a nuisance, but a benefit to society. We go places nobody else does.
Added: Sgt. Fulkerth, are you listening?
Updated: I finally caught up with the rest of the thread. Good reading.
[last edit 11/23/2004 5:06 AM by Rask - edited 1 times]
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IIVQ
Location: La Sud-Est du cité majeur du North-Holland (Bijlmer), .NL
Gender: Male
Back in Urbex!
| | |  | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 175 on 12/1/2004 2:11 PM >
| | | | I was so baffled and overwhelmed with the size and anger of this thread, but I've let it rest for a few days and in my mind. I've seen trough the trick question of the Rev.
I don't think we should have a copyrighted "urbanaut" organization, that wouldn't work.
But maybe we can have a paper with a common set of values which everyone who adheres to these values prints this, signs it out and carries them on them, at least every time they explore, as a contract with themselves.
Something along the lines of.
Urban Exploring Code of Ethics Contract
Hereby, I declare to myself that while performing the hobby of Urban Exploring:
- I will not bring any intentional damage to, nor deface any building or structure I visit in any way,
- I will not take any object from nor leave anything (other than a business card) in anyplace I explore,
- I will make sure the hobby of Urban Exploring does not get any negative attention to the Media, Police or Public,
- .......
As signed on ___/___/______ at _____________
by ______________________ (name) ____________________ (sig) |
This is a set of values I think most people here adhere to, maybe there are more. Please discuss. (and sorry to bring this thread back)
Though it might (or might not) help in showing this to a cop, the main use of this is just to remember oneself to those values.
Tijmen
P.S. "Urbanaut" Spellcheck hints: urbanity, urbanite, urbinate, urbainite...
What is urbanite? Some kind of rock? 
Posted by MapMan | 18/9/2005 19:25 | Hedy Lamarr made porn?
Posted by turbozutek | 20/9/2005 2:29 | Dude, educate us! |
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The Hitman's Daughter
Account Closed
Location: ottawa, canada
Gender: Female
hot pavement.
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 176 on 12/1/2004 2:19 PM >
| | | | Posted by Ninjalicious
THD: I'm amazed that you could have been active on this board for so long and still misunderstand the differences between laws and ethics so massively. Ethical explorers trespass because they don't think it's wrong (trespassing very rarely involves any sort of invasion of privacy, as you argue; personally, I go out of my way not to invade people's privacy). Ethical explorers generally don't steal or vandalize because they think it is wrong. The fact that all three activities are illegal is irrelevant, since the law (which varies drastically from place to place and year to year) doesn't enter into ethical discussions, which are a much more real and important sort of thing.
Ninj
http://www.infiltration.org
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I have no idea what you're even referencing here, but okay. You sound like one of those people who's convinced themselves they're a saint. Of course I understand the difference between the two, I'm not braindead.
And yes, trespassing is an invasion of privacy if it is private property and you are invading it. I'm not saying I don't do it. All I'm saying is that I don't sugar-coat it and pretend it isn't what it is.
richellesart.com
From now on and until the end of time, "Hip To Be Square" will conjure images of bloody bodies being hacked apart with axes.
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Emma Peel
Location: Ahowah
Gender: Female
Ghosting you like you've never been ghosted before.
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 177 on 12/1/2004 9:00 PM >
| | | | Posted by Ninjalicious
Ethical explorers trespass because they don't think it's wrong |
I. Am. A. Criminal. C-R-I-M-I-N-A-L. I trespass recreationally. It is my hobby. I waltz my little ass all over other people's private property (or government property) and know that it is illegal. Trespassing is WRONG. I could be fined for trespassing. It is against the law. It is pretty "un-ethical" to trespass and violate laws. It is unsafe. There are imminent dangers that go along with trespassing. Nevertheless, I am a criminal and I acknowledge that I break laws. No Trespassing laws are there to keep citizens, property, etc. safe and I understand that.
| Ethical explorers generally don't steal or vandalize because they think it is wrong. |
By this, I am an "ethical explorer." I do not tag, destroy, force my way into places (as that is burglary or breaking-and-entering, a felony punishable in Iowa by at least one year in jail or a very hefty fine.)
So the fact that I ADMIT I am both a) a criminal and b)an "ethical explorer" says what, Ninj? I think it says that I am honest with myself and with other people. People that smoke weed know it is against the law and know it can have harmful effects on a person's health. That's why its illegal. People that UE SHOULD BE ABLE TO ADMIT that it is potentially dangerous and a violation of privacy (you walk into my abandoned shack, that I own? You invade my privacy.), and should be able to admit that there is good reason for it to be illegal.
I am an "ethical explorer," and I trespass NOT because I "don't think it's wrong," but because I love it. I KNOW that it is wrong. And as an "ethical explorer," I admit that.
-Em
Edit: WEAR PANTS.
[last edit 12/1/2004 9:03 PM by Emma Peel - edited 1 times]
Sorry, I probably forgot my <sarcasm> tags. |
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Servo
| | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 178 on 12/1/2004 10:08 PM >
| | | | If I truly believed that what I do was somehow harming another individual, I wouldn't be doing it.
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Ninjalicious
Gone, but always with us
Location: Toronto
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 179 on 12/1/2004 11:18 PM >
| | | | Posted by The Hitman's Daughter
I have no idea what you're even referencing here, but okay. You sound like one of those people who's convinced themselves they're a saint. Of course I understand the difference between the two, I'm not braindead.
And yes, trespassing is an invasion of privacy if it is private property and you are invading it.
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My message was a reply to several messages by you earlier in this thread where you said, roughly, that people shouldn't claim to be ethical if they're doing something illegal. My point was that there is absolutely no incompatibility between those two things, and that people should feel free to claim to be ethical even if they do something illegal. I don't think I'm a saint, but I aim to be good.
As for the notion that being on private property is equivalent to an invasion of privacy, the term "invasion of privacy" refers strictly to individual privacy. It's not something corporations, buildings, governments, organizations or other non-human entities can claim (http://www.cs.suny...thics/Privacy.html).
Posted by Emma Peel
I. Am. A. Criminal. C-R-I-M-I-N-A-L. I trespass recreationally. It is my hobby. I waltz my little ass all over other people's private property (or government property) and know that it is illegal. Trespassing is WRONG. I could be fined for trespassing. It is against the law. It is pretty "un-ethical" to trespass and violate laws.
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This argument is what debaters and other Latin types call a non sequitor, meaning that C does not follow from A and B. Right and wrong and legal and illegal are very different concepts operating on different planes. Illegal does not equal wrong; something does not become wrong because you could be fined for it, or because it is against the current law in your area. It's easy to make long lists of activities that are legal but wrong, or illegal but right (or neutral). Trespassing is an excellent example of an activity that is illegal but ethically neutral.
It's fine and realistic if you want to think of yourself as a criminal and someone who breaks the law, but based on your description of your practices I don't think you should think of yourself as someone who deliberately "does wrong".
Ninj
http://www.infiltration.org
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