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 Mike Dijital
          
UEDB Moderator
Location: Boston MA.
Gender: Male
UE ver. 1.0
 |  |  | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 20 on 11/8/2004 5:49 PM >
|  | | | Are you serious?
I urbex because I hate rules.
Why would someone impose all these restrictions on themselves.
Doesn't sound like much fun to me. Half the fun of this hobby is that it is based on breaking law/rules.
www.deggi5.com / www.mikedijital.com |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 21 on 11/8/2004 5:49 PM >
| | | | Posted by Frost
Besides all the other reasons people have listed, I just want to add my own 2 cents.
UE is a hobby... hobbies GENERALLY do not have rules, or guidelines imposed upon them. Some people have woodworking as a hobby, some have art, some have photography, and granted there are certain things that one should be aware of in order to make that specific hobby successful or the outcome even remotely decent, but they aren't regulated, nor are they controlled.
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Almost all physical activities have at least guidelines. In skiing, downhill skiers have right of way, some choose to ignore that, and people get hurt as a result. In rock climbing you usually get checked out against a set of skills and practises before you can climb on a wall. In wood working you use certain safety practices and we all agree on certain methods of measurement and rules of thumb. And also in woodworking or art, your activity has little impact on others. In UE your actions always have impact on others. http://www.uer.ca/forum_showthread.asp?fid=1&threadid=11857
UE is just like say the Pagan belief systems. In paganism, you can call yourself a pagan and still fall under one of the hundreds of labels that fall under that (ie. Shamanism, Wicca, etc.). UE is the same thing, just because we are all Urban Explorers does not mean that we will all follow the same rules, or guidelines that everyone else does. We will all come to our own conclusions, we will all arrive at our own views. There will be nothing you can do to control a situation such as this.
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EXACTLY. You are free to be a Shamanist, I choose to be a Wicca and I think there are others who will choose to be the same. And just like any other religous designation there are certain standards to which one must hold ones self. One cannot act like a Wiccan but yet call themselves a Catholic. The Catholic church is in their right to stop that.
Now considering the point listed above in the quote, I highly disagree with this statement. For one, I'm am far from a law abiding citizen. In fact I find most of the laws imposed upon society are wrong and need to either be revoked or changed in some way. I am a UE, which obviously makes me a tresspasser, which I do on a fairly frequent basis, as does any other member that participates in this hobby. This automatically makes you a criminal in the eyes of the law, so stop fooling yourself thinking that just because it's simple tresspassing it doesn't make you a criminal... it does! Secondly there about a million other things I could list at the moment that would make me "not a law abiding citizen" ... most notably is the fact that I smoke pot in my spare time, I speed, I'm an activist (which half my actions alone could have me locked up or in a court), etc, etc, etc.
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There is a common practice out there that anytime an explorer is interviewed by the media they first and formost try to make the point that they, other than tresspass, never break the law. Are they lying? I would consider that to be unethical behavior. And there is a difference between criminal acts and illegal acts.
Although it's interesting, I think the whole attempt to control the community at large will cause more problems than it's worth. Not to mention, that once you attempt to control the "population" so to speak, you'll inevitably cause the creation of smaller rebellious groups that will do everything to defy you and your rules. It's human nature.
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No one said there is any attempt to control the community at large and I do not know where you got that. I knew that this concept would be greeted with prejudice and people would make assumptions and be threatened by those assumptions. That is human nature. And can we not make enough room in the UE community for people to hold common views aside from other parts of the community? I am an atheist, but I would die for others right to hold to a religion.
And as a last point, who the hell cares about a label? I mean lets be serious here, are we in bloody highschool? "Those are the punks, those are the jocks, etc." Labels suck, they always have, and anyone that uses them usually has a reason for justification like self-esteem or some other issue. A label is just that, it's a label. I may be an urban explorer, but in my eyes, I just explore buildings, I don't care that it's called urban exploration, I explore. In fact I explore more than just urban things, but I explore, period.
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That is the point of all this, we already have labels attached to us, my police, media and the public. And increasingly so those labels are becoming an obstruction to our activites. It is my belief that we should be trying to deal with the labaels that are getting in our way and taking the lesser of evils and defining our own labels to suit our needs as explorers.
Mod edit: fixed quotes
[last edit 11/8/2004 9:39 PM by Freak - edited 2 times]
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 22 on 11/8/2004 5:55 PM >
| | | | Posted by The Hitman's Daughter
I completely agree.
Another case of someone thinking they are better than all the other explorers because they've come up with a bunch of rules and so-called "ethics". All I have to say, is that if you're that concerned about ethics, why are you involved in a hobby based on illegal activity?
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Why is it those with a reactionary and prejudiced view of this are suggesting that anyone is better than anyone else? This is a classical argument used when one group is trying to hold themselves to a different set of actions than another and the first group is threated by that. Do not be threated, be accepting of others views and do not draw your own conclusions and use them to discredit others.
"Oh but it's just trespassing and trespassing doesn't hurt anybody and take nothing but pictures and blah blah blah noble speech blah blah!"
Wrong. Trespassing is wrong. Trespassing is a total violation of a person's privacy. Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints? Okay.. So does that make it alright to "trespass" into someone's email account and read all their emails, so long as you don't mess around with anything? Doesn't hurt anybody!
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exactly, you are holding yourself to a certain set of ethics. You are stating that UE is not for you. That is ok (allthough it makes me wonder why you are active on this site) but it is your right to participate.
The point I'm trying to make is that I am an explorer and I accept all responsibility that goes along with it, good and bad. I accept the fact that I am breaking the law every time I slip inside the open window of an abandoned building. I don't try to sugar-coat it with all sorts of niceties like trying to convince myself that i am somehow not doing anything wrong. I know I'm doing something wrong. And I accept that.
Just use your head. Don't break things, don't destroy property. And don't think you're better than anyone else.
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And that is exactly what the urbanaut site says. All that does is provide a way that you say all that in one word and in a way that those who are up to nefarious deeds cannot.
[last edit 11/8/2004 5:58 PM by Skaught - edited 2 times]
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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BigPoppaMikey
This user has been banned. See the banlist page for more details.
Location: Milpitas, California
Gender: Male
Don't follow me unless you want to...
| |  |  | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 23 on 11/8/2004 5:58 PM >
| | | | Posted by Mike Dijital
Doesn't sound like much fun to me. Half the fun of this hobby is that it is based on breaking law/rules.
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That is only for some people. Others actually enjoy much more being somewhere that either has not been touched in some time or will never be touched again. For instance, for the movie 'Cleopatra' (Cecil DeMille), they completely built the temples, houses, etc. on a 1:1 scale. When they were finished, they just cut supports and laid everything down for the desert sands to cover. Imagine finding that site again and sharing it via UER?!?!?! What a find! Yes, there is illegality there because you are trespassing on another's land to view all this, but OMG, imagine the thrill of sctually finding. That would far outweigh anything I did illegal to get there.
BPM
Wishing I was Jack Dalton just to have all the cool leftovers... |
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Mike Dijital
UEDB Moderator
Location: Boston MA.
Gender: Male
UE ver. 1.0
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 24 on 11/8/2004 5:58 PM >
| | | | I think before you start any sort of arguement , you will need to figure out Av-code, because your last two posts are unreadable, im not sure what or who is being quoted
Edit : Rev looks like you fixed it, thank you
[last edit 11/8/2004 6:01 PM by Mike Dijital - edited 1 times]
www.deggi5.com / www.mikedijital.com |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 25 on 11/8/2004 5:59 PM >
| | | | It is fixed. give it a second, I can only type so many words per minute. And I will reiterate. Spelling and punctuation has no bearing on the validity of an argument it is otherwise thought out and considered.
[last edit 11/8/2004 6:00 PM by Skaught - edited 1 times]
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 26 on 11/8/2004 6:06 PM >
| | | | Posted by Mike Dijital
Are you serious?
I urbex because I hate rules.
Why would someone impose all these restrictions on themselves.
Doesn't sound like much fun to me. Half the fun of this hobby is that it is based on breaking law/rules.
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Some people kill becasue they hate rules. We all live by rules in all aspects of every second of our lives. Even those who go out and do UE and steal and smash do so while still followiung some rules of some sort. They generally will not start smashing other people who are with them. That is a rule they follow.
Placing the restrictions on purselves is done so that as this hobby grows, we do not start to see laws made against us. The hobby is going to grow, it is inevitiable not matter what any of us do about it. Ya if cities start having harsher sentances against UE or trespass many will still UE. But eventually someone will get caught. And do think it fair that your actions today will result ian $2000 fine against someone someday for them Exploring? your actions today will have an impact tommorow. Now is the time for vision in the community while it is still small enough and authorities are still mostly in the dark.
Other hobbies where there is a limited reosurce have self imposed rules. Hiking, camping and other outdoor pursuits have rules, don't litter etc. Yes some people choose to shit on others enjoyment of it and run quads through nature reserves, leave unattened fires and chop down trees to make their own trails. That should not infrunge on the right of others to start groups that seek to protect those resources and make them available for others in the future.
[last edit 11/8/2004 6:09 PM by Skaught - edited 1 times]
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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The Hitman's Daughter
Account Closed
Location: ottawa, canada
Gender: Female
hot pavement.
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 27 on 11/8/2004 6:08 PM >
| | | | Posted by Rev. Skaught
exactly, you are holding yourself to a certain set of ethics. You are stating that UE is not for you. That is ok (allthough it makes me wonder why you are active on this site) but it is your right to participate.
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*rolls eyes* i think you are intentionally misunderstanding my point, but I'll explain it again. s-l-o-w-l-y.
Trespassing is an illegal activity.
It's a violation of a person's privacy.
I trespass.
It's illegal, and I accept that. I'm no angel.
I accept full responsibility for what I am doing. If I got caught well then it's tough luck for me.
I know I am breaking the law.
I don't try to sugar-coat it with noble speeches about ethics.
I don't try to convince myself or anyone else that its "only" trespassing and then look down my nose at others and think i'm this great noble ethical person.
I don't break things, I don't destroy property, and most of all, I don't think I'm better than anyone else.
richellesart.com
From now on and until the end of time, "Hip To Be Square" will conjure images of bloody bodies being hacked apart with axes.
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 28 on 11/8/2004 6:11 PM >
| | | | Posted by The Hitman's Daughter
*rolls eyes* i think you are intentionally misunderstanding my point, but I'll explain it again. s-l-o-w-l-y.
Trespassing is an illegal activity.
It's a violation of a person's privacy.
I trespass.
It's illegal, and I accept that. I'm no angel.
I accept full responsibility for what I am doing. If I got caught well then it's tough luck for me.
I know I am breaking the law.
I don't try to sugar-coat it with noble speeches about ethics.
I don't try to convince myself or anyone else that its "only" trespassing and then look down my nose at others and think i'm this great noble ethical person.
I don't break things, I don't destroy property, and most of all, I don't think I'm better than anyone else.
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Is that view sustainable?
And I for one never tresspass in a way that violates anyones privacy. Here the law is totally different when it is trespass against a house vs public or commercial property.
And I am not suggesting it is some higher ethic, just a minimum ethic.
*rolls eyes* i think you are intentionally misunderstanding my point, but I'll explain it again. s-l-o-w-l-y.
No one suggested anyone is better than anyone else, you raised the issue, not I.
I am merely trying to find a way that UE can remain sustainable for the large part of my lifetime. I can see what is going to happen someday to UE. I feel like we are are using up a resource faster than it renews.
All UE has an impact on other explorers. This is my attempt to take responsibilty for it for the sake of other explorers. The whole point of the designation Urbanaut was so as not be accused for speaking for other explorers who choose not use that designation.
[last edit 11/8/2004 6:21 PM by Skaught - edited 3 times]
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Mike Dijital
UEDB Moderator
Location: Boston MA.
Gender: Male
UE ver. 1.0
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 29 on 11/8/2004 6:21 PM >
| | | | I'll tell you what. You have fun doing whatever it is your trying to do. Im going to be partying with THD, Ed and the rest of the gang in some abandoned asylum somewhere.
Good day , and may the good news be yours.
www.deggi5.com / www.mikedijital.com |
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The Hitman's Daughter
Account Closed
Location: ottawa, canada
Gender: Female
hot pavement.
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 30 on 11/8/2004 6:22 PM >
| | | | Posted by Rev. Skaught
No one suggested anyone is better than anyone else, you raised the issue, not I.
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actually a lot of people raised that issue, not just me. which only proves the fact that that's the impression you give with this "organization", intentional or not.
Violating privacy is violating privacy regardless of the law.
And I don't think we are using up all the abandoned buildings - buildings close down every day.
How are you going to preserve urban exploration?
richellesart.com
From now on and until the end of time, "Hip To Be Square" will conjure images of bloody bodies being hacked apart with axes.
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 31 on 11/8/2004 6:24 PM >
| | | | Posted by Mike Dijital
I'll tell you what. You have fun doing whatever it is your trying to do. Im going to be partying with THD, Ed and the rest of the gang in some abandoned asylum somewhere.
Good day , and may the good news be yours.
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It is your right not to participate. The urabnaut ethics are not for everyone and it does not require that everyone follow them. Only those who agree with them.
That's cool.
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 32 on 11/8/2004 6:29 PM >
| | | | Posted by The Hitman's Daughter
actually a lot of people raised that issue, not just me. which only proves the fact that that's the impression you give with this "organization", intentional or not.
Violating privacy is violating privacy regardless of the law.
And I don't think we are using up all the abandoned buildings - buildings close down every day.
How are you going to preserve urban exploration?
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We are using up a window of time in which we get away with what we do because it is not on anyone's radar in a signifigant way. Times will change and we will wish we had been more proactive to create a different public view when we still had the chance. Once minds are made they are very difficult to change. In fact this thread is a case in point. An idea is presented. People make assumptions about it being elitist and then people cannot be deswayed. People are already making assumptions about explorers being B&E artists and theves. There are those who are actively working to discredit Urban explorers. We had a case here where a building management company got mad becasue we did a bunch of their buildings. So they called the local paper (who the editor is a friend of his) and they wrote an article about how we are criminals and comit B&E.
I can see a time when here they will change the law on B&E to include what we do. Currently even if we use lockpicks it is not B&E. It may take 10 years, but once it is done it is too late.
[last edit 11/8/2004 6:30 PM by Skaught - edited 1 times]
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Control
Location: NYC, All day every day.
Because it's expected
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 33 on 11/8/2004 6:36 PM >
| | | | How exactly would any one explorer 'police' other explorers, anyway? By emailing them aned telling them to stop doing bad things? By calling the police on them (aka - being a rat)?
Joining some group and trying to ram your ethics down everyone else's throat is pointless, conterproductive, and will likely implode or be looked down upon by the majority in the end. This model was already tried by someone and it failed miserably.
The only thing a good explorer needs to do is set and lead by good example.
The Zoo York Goon Squad.
If it looks good, Loot it. |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 34 on 11/8/2004 6:37 PM >
| | | | Posted by Control
How exactly would any one explorer 'police' other explorers, anyway? By emailing them aned telling them to stop doing bad things? By calling the police on them (aka - being a rat)?
Joining some group and trying to ram your ethics down everyone else's throat is pointless, conterproductive, and will likely implode or be looked down upon by the majority in the end. This model was already tried by someone and it failed miserably.
The only thing a good explorer needs to do is set and lead by good example.
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We would not be policing anyone who did not agree to be policed.
Did you read the rest of this thread? Or even the website for that matter?
Can we try to avoid making assumptions and using prejudcies?
Just becasue you are not cathlolic, does not mean you cannot pray to god. (reminder, I am an atheist)
[last edit 11/8/2004 6:42 PM by Skaught - edited 4 times]
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Crossfire
Location: Kay-Dub
Gender: Male
Don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years.
| | |  | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 35 on 11/8/2004 6:41 PM >
| | | | Can those of you who are responding to this thread please be sure to read the entire content of the thread, and not just skim the content, before responding? This will save you from posting comments that have already been dealt with, or posting comments that are irrelevant to the conversation. Thank you.
C.
Disgruntled. |
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Frost
Location: K.Dot
Gender: Male
No beer makes Frosty go..something something..(Taz: Crrazzy?)..Dont mind if I doo!
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward
<Reply # 36 on 11/8/2004 6:44 PM >
| | | | Posted by Rev. Skaught
Is that view sustainable?
And I for one never tresspass in a way that violates anyones privacy. Here the law is totally different when it is trespass against a house vs public or commercial property.
And I am not suggesting it is some higher ethic, just a minimum ethic.
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That has got to be one of the dumbest things I have heard.
Dude, if you enter any sort of private property (minus a drain say) that is considered tresspassing, whether or not you just walk through a hole in the freaking wall or you actually go through a door or something, you are still considered to be tresspassing and in the eyes of the law, you are considered to be breaking the law and committing an offense.
Just from that statement alone you are automatically showing that you're attempting to sugar coat this whole thing. Tresspassing is illegal, it will always be illegal, no matter what. The law will always view UEers as an illegal group because of the fact that we tresspass, it doesn't matter if we don't steal, or even if we do, I mean the latter will result in a worse fine/punishment but it won't change things. You will still be a criminal because of the tresspassing, and that will never change. We enter property that someone else owns, whether or not they actually occupy this particular property means nothing.
EXACTLY. You are free to be a Shamanist, I choose to be a Wicca and I think there are others who will choose to be the same. And just like any other religous designation there are certain standards to which one must hold ones self. One cannot act like a Wiccan but yet call themselves a Catholic. The Catholic church is in their right to stop that.
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LMAO, okay man, I would LOVE to see the Catholic church try and stop me from calling myself a catholic when I truly am not. I mean come on, let's be a little serious here.... Nobody can stop me from calling myself anything (besides maybe a cop-that's impersonating a police officer)... and I'd like to see any fuck with big enough cojones to try and stop me.
EDIT: I just thought of another point. Put yourself in the owners shoes, and look at the situation this way. For the majority of society, that is their particular property, even if it's closed/abandoned to a point, it is still owned by someone. We enter the picture, and that of course is going to piss someone off, nobody is going to become socially acceptable about UE besides the UE groups/people that currently exist. Society as a whole will never accept UE as part of an everyday thing, the world first of all is too bloody paranoid, and saying "Oh it's okay that they went into my old factory, I don't mind, it's been closed for 10 years." That puts the owner at liability, not to mention that anyone in their right mind (besides those that we socially engineer to our liking) would look at you like you're on crack. "What you want to go and take pictures? Yea okay kid, whatever, what else are you going to take?"
Just the known fact that there are people out there like us that have the ability to pull off what most theives can pull off is enough to scare people. We could be labelled by society/government as the next terrorists just because of those abilities. I think you're dreaming on cloud 9 if you think you'll ever change the views to be acceptable of a bunch of kids going places that are closed to the public.
[last edit 11/8/2004 6:51 PM by Frost - edited 1 times]
Why is marijuana not legal? Why is marijuana not legal? Its a natural plant that grows in the dirt. You know what's not natural, 80 year old dudes with hardons. Thats not natural, but we got pills for that. We're dedicating all our resources to keeping the old guys erect but we're puttin people in jail for smoking something that grows in the dirt. |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 37 on 11/8/2004 6:47 PM >
| | | | Posted by Crossfire
Can those of you who are responding to this thread please be sure to read the entire content of the thread, and not just skim the content, before responding? This will save you from posting comments that have already been dealt with, or posting comments that are irrelevant to the conversation. Thank you.
C.
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Thanks. I think no matter what happens here something good will come of it as long as everyone considers all views. Often I will play the part of Devil's Advocate if only to get people to trancend their current view of something.
Allthough I am somewhat serious about this. But if everyone TRULY understands the concept and noone feels it is worthwhile it will not survive and rightfully so.
Allthough as the recent election down south shows, an intellgient agrument is not always fully understood nor does it always win out. 
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Crossfire
Location: Kay-Dub
Gender: Male
Don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years.
| | | | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 38 on 11/8/2004 6:48 PM >
| | | | Posted by Frost
...and I'd like to see any fuck with big enough cojones to try and stop me.
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This thread is not about how tough you are, or religion. Let's try to keep it on topic, shall we?
Thanks!
C.
Disgruntled. |
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Frost
Location: K.Dot
Gender: Male
No beer makes Frosty go..something something..(Taz: Crrazzy?)..Dont mind if I doo!
| | | Re: An idea for UE as we move forward (You cannot post intelligently if you have not read whole thread)
<Reply # 39 on 11/8/2004 6:53 PM >
| | | | Posted by Crossfire
This thread is not about how tough you are, or religion. Let's try to keep it on topic, shall we?
Thanks!
C.
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I was on topic, he stated that the catholic church could stop me, I responded. It was part of the whole conversation, it was an example pertaining to the conversation.
Thanks 
Why is marijuana not legal? Why is marijuana not legal? Its a natural plant that grows in the dirt. You know what's not natural, 80 year old dudes with hardons. Thats not natural, but we got pills for that. We're dedicating all our resources to keeping the old guys erect but we're puttin people in jail for smoking something that grows in the dirt. |
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