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There are always civilian deaths in modern war (see Korea -- 5 million dead, Vietnam -- 2 million, Iraq -- 1 million, etc.), especially when one side puts its forces in civilian areas like the Ukrainians do. But just citing Western/anti-Russian sources is not the most credible way to make your case -- particularly when your own military has been the leading killer of civilians on the planet for 70+ years. It's one thing to claim that Russia is deliberately targeting civilians, which I haven't seen evidence of, it's another for civilians to die as collateral damage when they've been made part of the war zone by their own forces.
But if you want to be more Machiavellian about it, I think the reason so many Westerners have this strong reaction to Ukraine is that they are used to bombing non-Western nations and killing civilians with impunity and not really being bothered about it; getting a small taste of their own medicine comes as a shock. Only Pax Americana/NATO is supposed to be able to do that sort of thing. And that's why this is such a big deal: it's the end of 500 years of unchecked Western imperialism and military hegemony.
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I know that there is bias in the media here. I also know that the US has done horrible things over ideology, resources, land, etc. However many things the West has done, should not be used as an excuse for another country taking similar actions. Overall, whataboutism does not solve any problems, and is just used to justify injust actions.
| targeting civilians, which I haven't seen evidence of, |
Here is a source of the killing of civilians:
Russian Forces Fired On Civilian Vehicles
Civilians Killed Trying to Flee, Approaching Checkpoints
Is it OK if you tell me the source of your news?
Edit 1: Fixed a few mistakes and polished up writing a bit.
[last edit 4/12/2023 9:51 PM by Wowee - edited 1 times]
I will stop procrastinating tomorrow... |
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Posted by Shaddo
Nothing says "we're the good guys" like a terrorist attack on a blogger, eh?
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He's a blogger supporting Russia's invasion, so I say good riddance. An increase in terrorist attacks by Russians in their own country might end the war more quickly.
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Posted by Shaddo
But just citing Western/anti-Russian sources is not the most credible way to make your case
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Anyone citing pro-Putin sources on this site is going to get mocked and derided.
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Posted by Steed
Anyone citing pro-Putin sources on this site is going to get mocked and derided.
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that's putting it gently...
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I am actually kind of curious as to Shaddo's sources. Especially since they said
Posted by Shaddo
But just citing Western/anti-Russian sources is not the most credible way to make your case |
despite the fact that I have not seen them cite a single source. I feel like citing of Western/anti-Russian sources may be better than citing no sources at all. I just want to see the sources of Shaddo. Even one.
[last edit 4/13/2023 6:13 AM by Steed - edited 1 times]
I will stop procrastinating tomorrow... |
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Posted by Wowee
I am actually kind of curious as to Shaddo's sources. Especially since they said
despite the fact that I have not seen them cite a single source. I feel like citing of Western/anti-Russian sources may be better than citing no sources at all. I just want to see the sources of Shaddo. Even one.
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RT? Xinhua? Rodong Sinmun? Tucker Carlson? Hopefully we'll see.
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Here are a few sources I like:
Larry Johnson (ex-CIA)
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
Andrei Martyanov (Russian-American military analyst)
Scott Ritter
These guys will give you another side of the Ukraine story. You may dismiss some of this as "pro-Putin", but it will at least provide a real alternative to the mainstream Western media coverage, which is pretty much straight-up Russophobic propaganda and gaslighting 24/7.
[last edit 4/13/2023 6:30 AM by Shaddo - edited 1 times]
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You namedropped four people, but can you quote them saying it will be better for all of us if Putin is allowed to annihilate the Ukrainian people? Don't make us do all the work. Hopefully someone has started working on busts of all their heads.
[last edit 4/13/2023 6:32 AM by Steed - edited 1 times]
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Posted by Steed
You namedropped four people, but can you quote them saying it will be better for all of us if Putin is allowed to annihilate the Ukrainian people?
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No I can't, because they wouldn't say something like that. And Putin himself has never said he wants to "annihilate the Ukrainian people", so I'm not sure what the point of this question is. Although it wouldn't be hard to find quotes of Slava Ukrainians calling for the annihilation of the Russian people, because there is a clear fascistic and genocidal element to that regime.
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Posted by Shaddo
No I can't, because they wouldn't say something like that. And Putin himself has never said he wants to "annihilate the Ukrainian people", so I'm not sure what the point of this question is. Although it wouldn't be hard to find quotes of Slava Ukrainians calling for the annihilation of the Russian people, because there is a clear fascistic and genocidal element to that regime.
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So anyway, you like Putin and think he's a good politician, not a tyrant with nationalistic delusions of invading his neighbours. Do you also support China against Taiwan, and North Korea against the South?
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Posted by Samurai
i didn't know that... thanks for the info. 
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No problem. There's even a name for it: finlandization.
Anyway, things began to change in 1985 as first Gorbachev and then shortly afterwards yours truly came along. Now that I think about it, for literally all of my life we have been slowly crawling towards the west, looking back less and less as time went on, and now we are finally fucking THERE.
Now we just have to get Ukraine on this side of the new iron curtain.
[last edit 4/13/2023 3:51 PM by Tupsumato - edited 1 times]
All information and details given in good faith but not guaranteed! |
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Potsed by Shaddo
Larry Johnson (ex-CIA) |
When I looked at this source, I saw several conspiracy theories promoted. A couple of these are deep state and anti-vaccine theories.
I am however, thankful that you gave a few sources.
I will stop procrastinating tomorrow... |
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Posted by Wowee
When I looked at this source, I saw several conspiracy theories promoted. A couple of these are deep state and anti-vaccine theories.
I am however, thankful that you gave a few sources.
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Better than just attacking one of us for being angry at a tyrant, for sure. Even though all of them will probably turn out to be wingnuts who were probably turned because of kompromat.
Incidentally, I just got back from a local bar, where they newly hired a Sakhalin Korean, and she invited her friend along who's a Russian asylum seeker who's been going through the ringer fighting immigration to stay in the country and not be sent back to his homeland where they would draft him (or maybe punish him even worse for desertion).
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"Here are a few sources I like:"
Slightly off topic:
A coworker was telling me weird news stories about voter fraud that he had heard. After a while, I asked him what his source for news was. He told me and I looked it up. It wasn't something like CNN or WSJ, but some guys Blog! A persons personal opinion. Can you believe this?..
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Posted by Wowee
When I looked at this source, I saw several conspiracy theories promoted. A couple of these are deep state and anti-vaccine theories.
I am however, thankful that you gave a few sources.
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Yes, chances are when you leave the mainstream media matrix, you'll find some opinions and ideas that make you uncomfortable and tick certain boxes they have given you ("pro-Putin", "antivax", "conspiracy theorist", etc.). Dig a little bit more, and you might find that these boxes were actually created by people with a vested interested in shutting down certain kinds of dissent -- the classic example being the CIA's introduction of the term "conspiracy theorist" in the 1960s to try to discredit people who criticized their criminal antics around the world (Oh sorry, is this a "conspiracy theory"? Nope; documented fact). So yes, some of these places may be rabbit holes to various kinds of wrong-thinking, and if this scares you then I guess you can just keep watching CNN and believing what they tell you--at least until events on the ground make that impossible, at which point you can try to memory-hole the whole thing (see Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.).
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Posted by Shaddo
Yes, chances are when you leave the mainstream media matrix,
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um, yeah... (eyeroll)
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| Posted by Samuraium, yeah... (eyeroll) |
The old eyeroll defense eh?
Kinda reminds me of this reaction to George Galloway telling a former Blair cabinet member that she killed a million people in Iraq (see :34):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpIwMt5JAQ8
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"I guess you can just keep watching CNN and believing what they tell you"
Is it not that way with all news sources?..
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If only all of them had this much presence of mind.
https://www.reddit...o_a_drone_dropped/
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