That's ridiculous Dave. :/

What you're saying is like saying you need 20 beads on the end of your barrel. Just because it is not traditional does not mean it wouldn't have its advantages.

Before this turns into a giant debate, I like to play the Devil's Advocate and look at all possible solutions/outcomes/sides. I was just offering up a possible reason for a railed shotgun. I wasn't trying to justify any reasons. I still believe it would be an advantage in a low-light situation, a flashlight would also have its advantages.

If you are hunting with the shotgun, yes - go ahead and mount a rail on the receiver.
Note that you never want to mount a reflex sight on the barrel.
If you're using it for HD - don't try to be slick and run a HD gun with an Aimpoint on it.
A big bright tritium front bead is MUCH faster and easier to acquire in the dark.

That is your opinion. You may be better with a fixed night front sight. Not everyone is, and other people prefer other options. 95% of people I have talked to disagree with you. That's perfectly fine though, because it's all personal preference and opinion.

I'm not trying to be a dick, and I am sure not the preeminent shotgun expert.
I don't know who you're talking to though.
Show up with an Aimpoint on your shottie and you're probably going to get laughed at. At least where I shoot you will.
That said, the armorer here said that if you must put a red dot on a shotgun, choose an Eotech over an Aimpoint or something like an ACOG.
Here's a cut and paste:

"EOTech then. The EOTech holographic sight is about as fast as the Aimpoint single dot. I think its more accurate, maybe sorta? Its pretty damn durable, which is important for a scattergun sight - we think its the most durable. It comes in an AA and a CR123 version too - both are easy to find and both versions are reasonably long lasting - not compared to the Aimpoint though which lasts forever even left on. Inexperienced and weak shooters may prefer an red dot, whatever right? I thinks a lot of zombie hunters go that way too! Probly go to one of the gun forums and you will find like 1000 pics of tricked out $expensive$ guns and stories to match. To each his own Matt."

Posted by Whootsinator That is your opinion. You may be better with a fixed night front sight. Not everyone is, and other people prefer other options. 95% of people I have talked to disagree with you. That's perfectly fine though, because it's all personal preference and opinion.

I'm definitely FAR from a shotgun expert. I am, however, a pretty logical thinking guy in my own eyes.

I prefer the Aimpoint for the always-on guarantee, and I believe it to be the most rugged RDS available. Your armorer believes the EOtech is the most rugged. From the extensive reading of first hand accounts and testing on firearms and accessories I do, I believe Aimpoints to be more rugged and reliable. I've heard too many bad stories of EOtech sights failing in carbine classes. EOtechs are very nice sights though, and they are used widely by top weapons operators around the world for good reason. I simply believe the Aimpoint is better.

Your armorer says choose an EOtech over an Aimpoint, but doesn't give much reason why.

"I think it's more accurate, maybe sorta?"
He's not even definitive in his own opinion, so I don't think this should be used as a backing quote (which is why I didn't list it in the reasons for choosing EOtech over Aimpoint). I love the EOtech reticle, the big circle is very quick and the interior dot is very accurate. It also adds the advantage of target-side darkness. At the same time, I believe the circular body of the Aimpoint would itself work as an even faster large circle, with a 2MOA dot on the inside for precision. If I'm not mistaken the small dot size on both the EOtech and Aimpoint are 2MOA, with some larger options, so the whole accuracy thing is kind of a moot point anyway when comparing the two.


This post is getting longwinded and very jumbled. To sum up this whole debate I will say two things. I'll agree with your armorer and say 'to each his own'. I will also say that anyone who would laugh at me for showing up to the range with a RDS on a shotgun should really try it before they criticize others.

Posted by Whootsinator I am, however, a pretty logical thinking guy in my own eyes.

You call an Aimpoint on a shotgun logical, and call my idea of a flashlight with a wide beam "ridiculous"? lol. We are talking about shotguns here, right? You know, just aim in the general direction of your target and squeeze.

I'm sorry you have that misconception, Dave. Shotguns are not 'point in the general direction and squeeze' weapons. There is no such thing. That is NOT my opinion, that is FACT. I've stated and will continue to state when something is my opinion.

I didn't call your recommendation of a flashlight ridiculous. A flashlight of some kind is completely understandable, and recommended, on any home defense firearm. If you even bothered to read my entire post (and if you did, I am sorry for your terrible memory) you would see that I've already said that. Your statement of needing twenty RDSs to keep track of every pellet ridiculous.

Truthfully, i havent read most of what was written on this page.

And further...*I* am not on a swat team, so it doesnt particularly bother me what they choose to do. There's a good chance that they arent using their weapons as multi-function pieces. I love my 870 and use it for a variety of shooting activities.

Personally, I dont see the problem with mounting a rail atop my reciever. The rail itself doesnt weigh very much, and it allows me to mount different optics as I decide.

This way I can also mount my NVS for night shooting. (and yes, I hunt with it, even though I have a variety of shotguns, I still prefer using my 870)

Though without anything much heavier on top, I can still use a rear rail-mounted ghost ring aperature and maintain a relatively low-weight on the overall package.

I'm going for overall versatility, so what I choose to do with my own gun *shrugs* really shouldnt matter.

Show up with an Aimpoint on your shottie and you're probably going to get laughed at. At least where I shoot you will.

In that case, i probably wouldnt want to shoot there.
Not that I'm even suggesting putting an Aimpoint ON a shottie. It's just the principal. People shoot with what they're comfy with. And what you practice with is what you typically revert to doing when the chips are down. If something "works" for someone, I wouldnt clown them for it.

That said, the armorer here said that if you must put a red dot on a shotgun, choose an Eotech over an Aimpoint or something like an ACOG.

Some of us have been gifted at birth with shitty vision problems, which require the use of different-than-iron optics out past a certain distance.

While I'll agree that Eotech makes a far superior optics piece, not everyone can afford Eotech right off the bat.

What's "best" and what can be purchased within a person's budget, are often two different issues.

Be wary of switching your sights too much, if you're going from a ghost ring on a rail to, say, an Aimpoint M4 in a regular AR-15 mount, your cheek weld will be terribly inconsistent and uncomfortable. You may want to get two stocks if that is what you want to do.

He named a sight made by Bushmaster too as the best budget option.

Posted by Therrin What's "best" and what can be purchased within a person's budget, are often two different issues.

Another point of view below - contradicts our guy on the EOTech!
This is a GOOD discussion.
Ask your friends and post comments.
I am really learning a lot.
This seems to be a VERY hot and contentious issue.

"We will be upgrading our 870s in the next year or so, and I am testing and evaluating parts that include pistol gripped collapsible stock systems, weapon mounted light options and slings. My boss is against mounting optics on the shotguns, and I am dumbfounded and frustrated with his stance... but he is the boss. This hasn't stopped me from testing optics on my own though. I have done some informal testing with my personal 12" Grizzly (Rem 870 copy) at work. I have mounted an Aimpoint H1 on a Mesa Tactical mid length combo rail and 6 shot side saddle. We have 14" Wilson Combat GRS on the Service shotguns. I have timed and measured group sizes of my fellow instructors and random patrol officers that attend the range to practice. We use reduced recoil slug.

The drill first drill I ask them to do is to shoot the Service GRS shotgun and then the H1 equipped shotgun. The shotguns are chamber loaded with safety on and shooter in a low ready position. On the beep of a PACT timer, the shooter fires one round at the center of the target (50 feet) as accurately as they can. On average, most shooters improve their time to hit the target by almost 1 second when using the H1 over the GRS shotgun! The real proof is that almost all the rounds from the H1 are in the 10 ring (about 2" from the center, if not in the center of the target), while the GRS shot placement is on average 5 to 6 inches from the X.

The next drill I have them do is to shoot 2 rounds as accurately and quickly as they can. Same set up as mentioned above. When using the H1, shooters were quicker, the the 1st shot being quicker on target and the split time to the second shot about half a second to almost a second faster than the GRS shotgun. Group sizes were even more telling. The H1 group sizes were either one holers or about 1" from each other. The GRS group sizes ranged from 3" apart to over 12" apart... Participants in my little test were blown away at how accurate and easy it was to shoot the H1 equipped shotgun.

The last drill was to have the shooters shoot 4 rounds at the target with instruction to shoot as quickly and accurately as they felt could. More often than not, the H1 equipped shotgun had one ragged hole, while the GRS shotgun target had a much larger spread. Again, the Officers were amazed at how accurate the shotgun with the H1 was. A common comment was they felt more confident with the H1 shotgun.

Speed and accuracy are important, but one of the more beneficial aspects of a shotgun that has a red dot optic mounted on it is that the shooter can keep both eyes open, allowing for better peripheral vision. This really helps when they are moving and shooting. I have only had my fellow instructors do this, but they absolutely love the H1 shotgun.

I will say that mounting a red dot optic on a shotgun needs to be done with consideration on how drills will be completed. For speed reloads, we teach to pluck a round from the side saddle and come over top of the shotgun and dropping the round into the open ejection port. I initially had the regular length Mesa Tactical rail on my shotgun, but the position of the optic got in the way of completing a speed reload in the way we taught. I could speed reload coming under the gun, but I find this awkward and not as secure. The mid length rail eliminates any issues with speed reloads the way my department teaches.

I would avoid using EOTECH sights though. I just sent 6 back to the vendor, and they were hardly used on our AR15 patrol rifles. I don't have faith in EOTECHs at all. I have had my original Aimpoint M3 for over 15 years, and it is still going strong.

Now, if I can only get my boss to shoot the H1 shotgun to change his mind.... he won't touch my gun.... *sigh* Maybe the data I'm collecting will convince him."

Posted by DevilC He named a sight made by Bushmaster too as the best budget option.

I've also heard this, though I can't recall the name of the sight. I've heard that they are made by the same company that makes EOtechs, and is basically an EOtech with a few features missing, including the protective hood.

I have it in an email somewhere.
Will look later.

Posted by Whootsinator I've also heard this, though I can't recall the name of the sight. I've heard that they are made by the same company that makes EOtechs, and is basically an EOtech with a few features missing, including the protective hood.

Wow Devil, your own post contradicted your own previous post about the use of optical accessories mounted atop shotguns.

I'm proud of you for running an even-keeled debate without running too far to one side or the other and not allowing your p.o.v. to change based on new information.

However, having used both in the past, I still love Eotech's equipment. While spending 2 years living with an Army small arms instructor who was actively training both on-base/camp and overseas, I had the opportunity to try out alot of stuff that he brought home.

I've looked at mesa tactical's rail systems. I was actually pretty fond of their 6rnd sidesaddle incorporated with an reciever top rail system, but then decided that I'd probably instead go with tapping the top of the reciever and installing a rail secured that way.


And, to refute a previous point you made about what SWAT uses....
I mentioned that *I* am not SWAT. What I should have said (I thought about this last night outta the blue..)
Swat's response is typically aggressive and leans toward overtaking an emplacement.
My prime use of a combat shotgun would be defensive, such as securing my property or defending a structure.
As such, whatever means I find to be the best in terms of how *I* use my shotgun would be best for my purposes, not necessarily how SWAT uses theirs.

Ha ha ha - I am totally open to ideas.
Where I'm from and where I work, people are pretty opposed to the idea.
I am thoroughly trained with an ACOG of an AimPoint . . .
But my shotgun habits just don't support it.
Just takes re-training if that's the way you have to go, I guess.

Posted by Therrin Wow Devil, your own post contradicted your own previous post about the use of optical accessories mounted atop shotguns. I'm proud of you for running an even-keeled debate without running too far to one side or the other and not allowing your p.o.v. to change based on new information.

I actually used to hunt with a first generation Aimpoint on my Ithaca 37 back in the day. It worked well for duck, not so well on dove. Interesting experiment that lasted about a year.

It did look ridiculous. 6 inch long blue steel and glass tube.