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LAX
Location: Cincinnati Total Likes: 0 likes
| | | Re: Shotguns < Reply # 24 on 3/17/2010 8:15 PM > | Reply with Quote
| | | I'm definitely FAR from a shotgun expert. I am, however, a pretty logical thinking guy in my own eyes. I prefer the Aimpoint for the always-on guarantee, and I believe it to be the most rugged RDS available. Your armorer believes the EOtech is the most rugged. From the extensive reading of first hand accounts and testing on firearms and accessories I do, I believe Aimpoints to be more rugged and reliable. I've heard too many bad stories of EOtech sights failing in carbine classes. EOtechs are very nice sights though, and they are used widely by top weapons operators around the world for good reason. I simply believe the Aimpoint is better. Your armorer says choose an EOtech over an Aimpoint, but doesn't give much reason why. "I think it's more accurate, maybe sorta?" He's not even definitive in his own opinion, so I don't think this should be used as a backing quote (which is why I didn't list it in the reasons for choosing EOtech over Aimpoint). I love the EOtech reticle, the big circle is very quick and the interior dot is very accurate. It also adds the advantage of target-side darkness. At the same time, I believe the circular body of the Aimpoint would itself work as an even faster large circle, with a 2MOA dot on the inside for precision. If I'm not mistaken the small dot size on both the EOtech and Aimpoint are 2MOA, with some larger options, so the whole accuracy thing is kind of a moot point anyway when comparing the two.
This post is getting longwinded and very jumbled. To sum up this whole debate I will say two things. I'll agree with your armorer and say 'to each his own'. I will also say that anyone who would laugh at me for showing up to the range with a RDS on a shotgun should really try it before they criticize others.
[last edit 3/17/2010 8:15 PM by LAX - edited 1 times]
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| Therrin This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL Gender: Male Total Likes: 279 likes
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | | Re: Shotguns < Reply # 27 on 3/19/2010 9:27 AM > | Reply with Quote
| | | Truthfully, i havent read most of what was written on this page. And further...*I* am not on a swat team, so it doesnt particularly bother me what they choose to do. There's a good chance that they arent using their weapons as multi-function pieces. I love my 870 and use it for a variety of shooting activities. Personally, I dont see the problem with mounting a rail atop my reciever. The rail itself doesnt weigh very much, and it allows me to mount different optics as I decide. This way I can also mount my NVS for night shooting. (and yes, I hunt with it, even though I have a variety of shotguns, I still prefer using my 870) Though without anything much heavier on top, I can still use a rear rail-mounted ghost ring aperature and maintain a relatively low-weight on the overall package. I'm going for overall versatility, so what I choose to do with my own gun *shrugs* really shouldnt matter.
| Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
| DevilC
Location: Washington, District of Corruption Gender: Male Total Likes: 202 likes
I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their views.
| | | | Re: Shotguns < Reply # 31 on 3/19/2010 4:40 PM > | Reply with Quote
| | | Another point of view below - contradicts our guy on the EOTech! This is a GOOD discussion. Ask your friends and post comments. I am really learning a lot. This seems to be a VERY hot and contentious issue. "We will be upgrading our 870s in the next year or so, and I am testing and evaluating parts that include pistol gripped collapsible stock systems, weapon mounted light options and slings. My boss is against mounting optics on the shotguns, and I am dumbfounded and frustrated with his stance... but he is the boss. This hasn't stopped me from testing optics on my own though. I have done some informal testing with my personal 12" Grizzly (Rem 870 copy) at work. I have mounted an Aimpoint H1 on a Mesa Tactical mid length combo rail and 6 shot side saddle. We have 14" Wilson Combat GRS on the Service shotguns. I have timed and measured group sizes of my fellow instructors and random patrol officers that attend the range to practice. We use reduced recoil slug. The drill first drill I ask them to do is to shoot the Service GRS shotgun and then the H1 equipped shotgun. The shotguns are chamber loaded with safety on and shooter in a low ready position. On the beep of a PACT timer, the shooter fires one round at the center of the target (50 feet) as accurately as they can. On average, most shooters improve their time to hit the target by almost 1 second when using the H1 over the GRS shotgun! The real proof is that almost all the rounds from the H1 are in the 10 ring (about 2" from the center, if not in the center of the target), while the GRS shot placement is on average 5 to 6 inches from the X. The next drill I have them do is to shoot 2 rounds as accurately and quickly as they can. Same set up as mentioned above. When using the H1, shooters were quicker, the the 1st shot being quicker on target and the split time to the second shot about half a second to almost a second faster than the GRS shotgun. Group sizes were even more telling. The H1 group sizes were either one holers or about 1" from each other. The GRS group sizes ranged from 3" apart to over 12" apart... Participants in my little test were blown away at how accurate and easy it was to shoot the H1 equipped shotgun. The last drill was to have the shooters shoot 4 rounds at the target with instruction to shoot as quickly and accurately as they felt could. More often than not, the H1 equipped shotgun had one ragged hole, while the GRS shotgun target had a much larger spread. Again, the Officers were amazed at how accurate the shotgun with the H1 was. A common comment was they felt more confident with the H1 shotgun. Speed and accuracy are important, but one of the more beneficial aspects of a shotgun that has a red dot optic mounted on it is that the shooter can keep both eyes open, allowing for better peripheral vision. This really helps when they are moving and shooting. I have only had my fellow instructors do this, but they absolutely love the H1 shotgun. I will say that mounting a red dot optic on a shotgun needs to be done with consideration on how drills will be completed. For speed reloads, we teach to pluck a round from the side saddle and come over top of the shotgun and dropping the round into the open ejection port. I initially had the regular length Mesa Tactical rail on my shotgun, but the position of the optic got in the way of completing a speed reload in the way we taught. I could speed reload coming under the gun, but I find this awkward and not as secure. The mid length rail eliminates any issues with speed reloads the way my department teaches. I would avoid using EOTECH sights though. I just sent 6 back to the vendor, and they were hardly used on our AR15 patrol rifles. I don't have faith in EOTECHs at all. I have had my original Aimpoint M3 for over 15 years, and it is still going strong. Now, if I can only get my boss to shoot the H1 shotgun to change his mind.... he won't touch my gun.... *sigh* Maybe the data I'm collecting will convince him."
| Science flies you to the Moon. Religion flies you into tall buildings. |
| Therrin This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL Gender: Male Total Likes: 279 likes
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | | Re: Shotguns < Reply # 34 on 3/19/2010 11:55 PM > | Reply with Quote
| | | Wow Devil, your own post contradicted your own previous post about the use of optical accessories mounted atop shotguns. I'm proud of you for running an even-keeled debate without running too far to one side or the other and not allowing your p.o.v. to change based on new information. However, having used both in the past, I still love Eotech's equipment. While spending 2 years living with an Army small arms instructor who was actively training both on-base/camp and overseas, I had the opportunity to try out alot of stuff that he brought home. I've looked at mesa tactical's rail systems. I was actually pretty fond of their 6rnd sidesaddle incorporated with an reciever top rail system, but then decided that I'd probably instead go with tapping the top of the reciever and installing a rail secured that way.
And, to refute a previous point you made about what SWAT uses.... I mentioned that *I* am not SWAT. What I should have said (I thought about this last night outta the blue..) Swat's response is typically aggressive and leans toward overtaking an emplacement. My prime use of a combat shotgun would be defensive, such as securing my property or defending a structure. As such, whatever means I find to be the best in terms of how *I* use my shotgun would be best for my purposes, not necessarily how SWAT uses theirs.
| Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
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