Infiltration

MindHacker location: Suburbs of DC Gender: Male If you spot a terrorist arrow, pin it to the wall with your shoulder. \|	Re: Motion Detectors!! <Reply # 40 on 11/27/2005 1:36 AM >

	Think of it this way. If something was red and glowing against something blue, would you see it? (yes) Now what if it was red and glowing but hidden under a blanket. Would you still see it moving against the background? (yes). Now shift the frequencies/wavelengths and you have the situation described. So if you could find a material with the same IR signature as the surrounding materials (with same variations if you are not crossing an entirely plain something), your golden. Else, Your screwed. "That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire

el nerdo

Chief UER Lackey
Gender: Male

What are you, from the Department of Know'm Sayin's? You takin' a Know'm census?

Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 41 on 11/27/2005 4:05 AM >

Posted by MindHacker
Think of it this way. If something was red and glowing against something blue, would you see it? (yes) Now what if it was red and glowing but hidden under a blanket. Would you still see it moving against the background? (yes). Now shift the frequencies/wavelengths and you have the situation described. So if you could find a material with the same IR signature as the surrounding materials (with same variations if you are not crossing an entirely plain something), your golden. Else, Your screwed.

Sorry, doesn't work like that.

this_guy location: Chicago suburbs Gender: Male \| \|	Re: Motion Detectors!! <Reply # 42 on 11/28/2005 8:54 AM >

	Radiated power is proportional (by a constant to make the units work) to three factors. I remember learning the equation in thermodynamics class, but the theory behind it wasn't presented particularly well. Here's my attempt to reason through the equation: The three factors are surface area, emissivity (ranging from 0 if perfectly reflective to 1), and the reason the formula stuck in my mind, the difference between the Kelvin temperatures to the fourth power of the body in question and its surroundings. Any factor could be reduced to reduce IR emissions. Minimizing area isn't an option for explorers, but it's probably how small animals remain undetected. Matching the temperature is difficult but has some potential. Being super-reflective should help, but if you encounter an active sensor or any other IR source, you're in big trouble, so it might be better to maximize emissivity if you can get the temperature close enough. "Every sound shall end in silence, but the silence never dies." - from Samuel Miller Hagemen, found written on the wall of an abandoned building

statik

location:
colorado

There has got to be more to life than just being really, really, really, ridiculously good-looking.

Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 43 on 11/28/2005 12:52 PM >

Posted by this_guy
Pin tumbler locks are still in use even though they can be defeated by appropriately tooled street sweeper bristles. Or if you aren't cheap a $20 lock pick kit that has more picks than you'd ever need for most locks.

Yes, but lock picking still requires a measure of skill and time. The purpose of any security device is not to be perfectly infallible (none of them are), but to create enough of a hinderance to make what's beyond it not worth the time, risk, or effort.
And I'm sure as soon as someone creates a device that can be operated by any average semi-retarded mouth breather to open any lock within a few seconds, and that sells at any chain hardware or department store for less than $5, you'll see the pin tumbler lock obsolesce real quick.

If the outside surface of the blanket is the same temperature as its surroundings, it will look like its surroundings in the IR area of the spectrum. It might not last very long, but it should work for a short time.

Does something need to be restated? The temperature simply does not matter. The super-thermo-insulated blanket will always register to PIR as "colder" than the environment, no mater what the surface temperature, and will still trip. Every time.
Of course, if you don't believe that, you're welcome to try, but I'm sure you'll be disappointed with the results. Just trying to save you some trouble here.

It's possible to defeat PIR motion detectors by simply moving slowly enough. I knew that much long before I knew how the sensors worked.

Did I just say something about skill and time?

None more black..

aDeLtRiTuS

location:
south australia
Gender: Male

Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 44 on 12/18/2005 9:25 PM >

It's possible to defeat PIR motion detectors by simply moving slowly enough. I knew that much long before I knew how the sensors worked.

but the rate you would have to move would be a joke,not even worth considering.a mate of mine has tryd this on his home ones.

there is no such thing as death,life is just a dream reflected in the eyes of someone that is truley aware of time

MindHacker location: Suburbs of DC Gender: Male If you spot a terrorist arrow, pin it to the wall with your shoulder. \|	Re: Motion Detectors!! <Reply # 45 on 12/19/2005 7:40 AM >

	Woot! necroposting! I want in! They are tuned to different tolerances, some are (all but?) impossible, others are just a pain. And btw, on my earlier post with the different colors glowing/not, I am right, its quite similar (analogizing it to be simpler = not "exactly" right) "That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire

Zensins

location:
Florida
Gender: Male

Sunlight on chrome, the blur of the landscape, every nerve aware.

Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 46 on 1/11/2006 3:55 AM >

Posted by statik

Yes, but lock picking still requires a measure of skill and time. The purpose of any security device is not to be perfectly infallible (none of them are), but to create enough of a hinderance to make what's beyond it not worth the time, risk, or effort.
And I'm sure as soon as someone creates a device that can be operated by any average semi-retarded mouth breather to open any lock within a few seconds, and that sells at any chain hardware or department store for less than $5, you'll see the pin tumbler lock obsolesce real quick.

I understand what you're saying but have to disagree. Some examples: A linoleum knife is available for less than $5 at any chain hardware store and does a good job of bypassing simple doorknob locks. No, it's not "any lock" but there are a whole lot of these locks being used on interior doors. They're not considered obsolete. You can also make a great shim from a used/new hacksaw blade that bypasses "protected" roof door locks but I covered that in another post.

Although I don't doubt the scientific facts as stated, I have to wonder if they apply directly to alarm motion detectors. It sounds more like you're describing how FLIR works...which can be defeated using a special ghillie suit (cost $3000 here http://www.ustacti...om/gs_prices.shtml). I'm thinking if FLIR monitored by a trained operator can be tricked with a $3000 ghillie suit, so can a $30 motion detector for probably a lot less.

My advice is: Try it and find out. For little money and a little time you can test out things like the "space blanket" idea. A sheet of drywall on a handle might work since it would be emulating the surrounding walls perhaps. A space blanket stretched over a cardboard shield big enough to hide behind completely might work. I'm a big believer in emperical testing over theory. Lots of stuff that should work in theory, doesn't. Lots of stuff works, that some would say shouldn't, in theory. EXPERIMENT!

MindHacker location: Suburbs of DC Gender: Male If you spot a terrorist arrow, pin it to the wall with your shoulder. \|	Re: Motion Detectors!! <Reply # 47 on 1/11/2006 4:42 PM >

	The basic principle to security (computer and real world) is to make it more expensive to get in than its worth. Therefor, anything behind a butterknife-able lock is probably only worth a few dollars ($butterknife + $effort + $time). Most houses deadbolt, cause things inside are worth more. Same with cheap padlocks. A boltcutter costs $30? so anything behind a cheap padlock is probably only worth at the most 50 dollars, typically. On priciple. Also, could you link on the flir ghillie? I'm intrigued! "That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire

ChuckyShamrok location: Boston MASS Gender: Male I'm Awesome; But I suck. \|	Re: Motion Detectors!! <Reply # 48 on 1/11/2006 9:40 PM >

	you guys are all looking at it the wrong way. the best way to do it, according to my friend who actually installs alarm systems and fixes them, including Motion Sensors, would be to get to the alarm control panel, slice litte sections of the jacket off the wires running to the motion detector, than simply get some alligator clips and jump it across the wires. Than cut the wires past the alligator clips so the motion detector is no longer active, against UE ethics, but is probbably the best and easiest way to get it done. Just a nostalgic old man now...

Blue90 location: TN Shiny. \|	Re: Motion Detectors!! <Reply # 49 on 1/11/2006 11:04 PM >

	do those ir detectors trip at the presence of cold as well as hot? This is the way the world ends.

Zensins

location:
Florida
Gender: Male

Sunlight on chrome, the blur of the landscape, every nerve aware.

Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 50 on 1/11/2006 11:16 PM >

Posted by MindHacker
Also, could you link on the flir ghillie? I'm intrigued!

http://www.ustacti...om/gs_prices.shtml

Or, just google ghillie +flir
[last edit 1/11/2006 11:17 PM by Zensins - edited 1 times]

Intrinsic location: Collingwood Gender: Male \|	Re: Motion Detectors!! <Reply # 51 on 1/13/2006 5:59 AM >

	First off, you have no business breaking a window and entering the property. That goes against the ethics of Urban Exploration in my opinion. Secondly, cutting the wire to the motion sensor may or may not work just as cutting the wire to a magnetic door sensor may or may not work. Some alarms work on an open or closed loop system (or both). If you cut the wire then you break the loop and the alarm sounds. If the loop is open, then nothing will happen. 50/50 chance. If you attempt to open the sensor itself or the alarm module, it may trigger the tamper switch. The alarm module is usually housed away in a location not easily seen, so that by the time you find it, you've triggered the alarm. No alarm installation company is going to mount the main module within plain sight. Furthermore, some motion sensors have a tamper line that will trigger if the wire is cut. It's a game of roulette. Trespassing is one thing but property damage and break and enter are another. [last edit 1/13/2006 6:03 AM by Intrinsic - edited 3 times]

Team Leader

This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
location:
Uptown,downtown,all around.
Gender: Male

Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 52 on 1/13/2006 11:06 AM >

Posted by MindHacker
I think a good number of the sensors are active, and pulse infrared with the LED on them. The thermal blanket won't work for the same reason that throwing things at the (motion sensing) lightswitchs work, because the room looks different than it did last pulse. My advice would be to use some form of white tape. Go in when it's not armed and place the tape over only the window of the sensor, and go back later (or go in, trip, tape, run, return). Who's gonna notice a different shade of color on the motion detector? I won't. It doesn't have to be thick, Ive blocked them with a tissue...

Good advice, I thought about going under a sensor and spraying paint on it, theres lots of references to use of spray paint. Will it set off an active sensor? assuming you can get close enough to it. One thing i know for sure if you cut the wire it will set off a trouble alarm.
[last edit 1/13/2006 11:13 AM by Team Leader - edited 1 times]

Death Sentence- Live to die (good ole one)
http://theaumc.com/forums

DrDeke location: Michigan Gender: Male \|	Re: Motion Detectors!! <Reply # 53 on 1/13/2006 6:23 PM >

	Maybe you should just wait until a power outage hits your area. This sounds like a lot of hassle and risk. You already broke the law by destroying this place's property; are you sure you want to run the risk of attracting additional attention to yourselves while there? -DrDeke Edit: Alternatively, if you are sure you will get out of there quickly enough, and are willing to spend the time on it, you could make a quick dash through the building on a frequent basis, setting off several alarms. Maybe eventually the security company would get used to it and not come out to see what is going on. You would want to do this at a different time of day each time, though, in order to reduce the likelihood that someone will be there waiting for you. Even then, this doesn't seem like such a good idea to me, really. [last edit 1/13/2006 6:25 PM by DrDeke - edited 1 times] If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.

InsertNameHere

location:
North County San Diego
Gender: Male

We were playing flashlight tag, officer!

Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 54 on 1/31/2006 9:10 PM >

I know absolutely nothing about wave mechanics or electronics, so tell me if this would work: http://www.xinvent...ain/spy/remote.htm

The circuit releases a flood of pulsing IR light...

I'm thinking that putting one of these in a hidden location in the same room as a PIR could effectively jam it. Initially turning it on would likely set the sensor off, but after that (security could just shrug it off anyway), would the flood of IR light cloak your IR signature? Or is it cumulative - your IR would just show up on top of the IR flood from this device? The pulsing of the IR light could also cause a problem, but perhaps it could be adjusted to a constant stream.

A cage went in search of a bird.

M. Fuzzy location: GTA Gender: Male Machine Gun Bunnies! \|	Re: Motion Detectors!! <Reply # 55 on 2/1/2006 12:39 AM >

	Instead of doing the quick run thing as suggested before try letting an animal out in the building every once in a while like a raccoon or squirrel every 4th day. They'll set the alarm off, and whoever comes finds it's just a raccoon or squirrel inside. It'll piss them off for sure every time ADDITION: Depending on the type of sensor and if animals can bug it, that is [last edit 2/1/2006 1:52 AM by M. Fuzzy - edited 1 times] Keep it fuzzy.

FoxTwoFoxTwo location: Clarksville, Tennessee Gender: Male I'm an explorer who photographs... \| \|	Re: Motion Detectors!! <Reply # 56 on 2/1/2006 12:58 AM >

	Hey guys, dont flame me too hard but would some cheap UE version of chaff work? I know IR isnt the same as radar by far but would it work some way? Now, if you shoot the chaff into the high tech motion sensors that distinguish between small animals and people, it would be confused by seeing a myriad of small things moving slowly and in a way, could you not slip by unnoticed by the confused sensor? Bringing exploration to Clarksville. Journal: http://www.uer.ca/...id=4&catid=2000173 \| RUAUER!?!?!?111ONE??QUESTIONMARK \| FoxTwoFoxTwo - "I just ordered a large. I have a relatively huge head so yeah..."

MindHacker location: Suburbs of DC Gender: Male If you spot a terrorist arrow, pin it to the wall with your shoulder. \|	Re: Motion Detectors!! <Reply # 57 on 2/1/2006 2:50 AM >

	Chaff works by efffing the readings over, not by eliminating readings. What you want is no readings, crazy readings set those motion detectors off. I like the animal+masking technique. Run in and cover the sensor, leaving an animal behind for a reason that it woulda gone off, so its not that suspicious. Or go MGS and run around in a box. Totally works. Totally. And if anyone can actually pick up on it they just think "Oh yes always a box in the middle of the hallway, no need to worry." [last edit 3/19/2006 2:19 AM by Raticus - edited 1 times] "That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire

Blue90 location: TN Shiny. \|	Re: Motion Detectors!! <Reply # 58 on 2/1/2006 4:20 AM >

	Wouldn't a bunch of moving small things sorta be the same size as a large moving thing? anyway, these are set off by movement, and i think the answer might lie somewhere outside the box. [last edit 3/19/2006 2:21 AM by Raticus - edited 1 times] This is the way the world ends.

Blue90 location: TN Shiny. \|	Re: Motion Detectors!! <Reply # 59 on 2/1/2006 4:21 AM >

	hahaha, nice. I still think you should go RE4 style on it and shoot or grenade it until satisfactory results appear. This is the way the world ends.

Infiltration Forums > Archived UE Tutorials, Lessons, and Useful Info > Motion Detectors!! (Viewed 14040 times)

Page: < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >