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Ryden
   
location:
Barrie On
Gender: Male
 |  | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 20 on 11/13/2005 8:10 PM >
|  | | | This might be a bit of a brutish solution but I'm going to suggest it anyway. If the above solutions don't work, just cut the power, leave, and see later if anyone comes or if the wiring is fixed. If not, you're set.
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L'ynx
Gender: Male
| | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 21 on 11/13/2005 9:05 PM >
|  | | | Yeah, We have access to the power boxes. Those grey pannels with all the switches on them, So we wont literally have to CUT anything we just flip the main power switches off. If the alarms go off then we're gonna have to cover them up.
As for waiting I've talked to the guys and it does seem a little early to go back there. The cops did show up because the building is ALWAYS vacant, and that night there were cars in the lot and the lights were on inside.
So were gonna take this time to revise our plans of attack. this is our only real option seeing how were in a small town that dosnt have that many abandoned buildings. I suppose we could have started off with something smaller, like one of the vacant homes. Either way its quite a rush doing so. UE beats the hell out of sitting around playin nintendo.
Till next time.
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Plytheman
 
location:
Lawrence, Massachusetts
Obey The Deer
| |  | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 22 on 11/13/2005 9:44 PM >
| | | | I have a question/thought to throw into this all. My friend's parents bought a little wall mounting IR alarm that would beep every time you walk past it. I noticed on the bottom of it there was a sticker saying something like "This device complies will all FCC regulations and does not interfere with FCC operations and allows FCC interference" It had some codes that it was compliant with and what not, these stickers are on a lot of wireless products. My question is, what kind of interference are these made to be open to? Is there something you can make that would wirelessly scramble these things?
I know some people that made a tesla coil that would supposedly short circuit any electronics in the area, so thats another possibility, except the tesla coil would ruin the electronics, if it actually does what those kids were saying it would.
I'm achin, I'm shakin, I'm breakin, Like Humans Do!!
-Byrne |
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FrznEcureuil
location:
Winterpeg, Canada
Gender: Male
| | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 23 on 11/15/2005 1:02 AM >
| | | | Plytheman: i think what you're thinking of is an emp. They work well if you can get the equipment in place.
many motion detectors can be "overloaded" or temporarilly desensitized be keeping a laser pointer focused in their sensing eye
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L'ynx
Gender: Male
| | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 24 on 11/15/2005 2:55 AM >
| | | | Have you tested the Laser beam theory?
Just wondering seeing how I dont have a laser just yet and does sound like a good idea, if it worked. If you had two people with you it would make covering your Motion detector much easier. One person stands still aiming the laser at the Detector while the other sneaks up close enough to cover the unit with one of the other Ideas mentioned here, I.E Cardboard, glass, something to stop it from detecting motion.
Either way sounds good, If someone could test this it would be great. Weather it be an actual laser beam that scrambles it up or maby just LED lights in general.
Please post your results here for everyone to learn from.
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el nerdo
     
Chief UER Lackey
Gender: Male
What are you, from the Department of Know'm Sayin's? You takin' a Know'm census?
| |  | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 25 on 11/16/2005 1:40 AM >
| | | | You guys need to go a little more low tech.
Here's a method that I can guarantee works:
Since we know the IR detector is watching for large sources of IR radiation, how do you beat it?
Easy. Don't let it see your IR radiation.
How? Well, short of finding clothing that reflects IR (and such clothing exists - I think it's actually illegal for civilians to possess it), what can you do?
Easy. Find a large object that you can drag between yourself and the sensor. Like a large overstuffed chair/sofa or something similar. Stay low, behind the chair, and move through the room. Slow? Yes. Difficult? Most definitely.
But I can guarantee it works against IR.
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Mellon_Collie
location:
Utah'ish
Gender: Male
Chingblot.
| |  | | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 26 on 11/16/2005 3:03 AM >
| | | | I hear that spraying detectors with cans of "Dust-B-Gone" works. I think that is what of the links I posted recommended. I dunno though, never ran into a detector, and I do not have any.
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statik
location:
colorado
There has got to be more to life than just being really, really, really, ridiculously good-looking.
| | | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 27 on 11/16/2005 10:36 AM >
| | | | Posted by Plytheman
I have a question/thought to throw into this all. My friend's parents bought a little wall mounting IR alarm that would beep every time you walk past it. I noticed on the bottom of it there was a sticker saying something like "This device complies will all FCC regulations and does not interfere with FCC operations and allows FCC interference" It had some codes that it was compliant with and what not, these stickers are on a lot of wireless products. My question is, what kind of interference are these made to be open to? Is there something you can make that would wirelessly scramble these things?
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The long answer:
http://www.fcc.gov...5/part15-91905.pdf
The short answer:
No.
None more black.. |
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vinny701
| | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 28 on 11/21/2005 11:17 PM >
| | | | Posted by el nerdo
You guys need to go a little more low tech.
Here's a method that I can guarantee works:
Since we know the IR detector is watching for large sources of IR radiation, how do you beat it?
Easy. Don't let it see your IR radiation.
How? Well, short of finding clothing that reflects IR (and such clothing exists - I think it's actually illegal for civilians to possess it), what can you do?
Easy. Find a large object that you can drag between yourself and the sensor. Like a large overstuffed chair/sofa or something similar. Stay low, behind the chair, and move through the room. Slow? Yes. Difficult? Most definitely.
But I can guarantee it works against IR.
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ok, my idea is similar to this, but completely legal (that is if it works) it is yet to be tested, but theoretically it should work. here it is
Go to the wal-mart store, and in the camping section there are thermal blankets (their silver and are in a very small package and their only like 2 bucks)
these work by keeping your heat in and by absorbing any that hits it (infra red is aka heat) and most motion sensors have a limit, to keep animals from setting them off, (they have a "weight limit" so that anything under, usually, 50 lbs, wont set them off) so if you wrap yourself in a thermal blanket, you SHOULD be able to make your heat signature small enough to not set it off. im thinkin if you put it on INSIDE OUT it should just reflect the radiation of the room, as long as nobody else, or any other sorce, and if you put it INSIDE RIGHT it should just absorb all the radiation, and not reflect any. well theres my idea, hope it helps
mind you THIS IS NOT TESTED if you try it without testing it and get burned DONT COME TO ME, THIS IS NOT TESTED there i think i have made it clear that THIS IS NOT TESTED. if someone does test it, would you please tell me what your results are
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The Bean
location:
Austin TX
Gender: Male
Some dude with a camera
| | | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 29 on 11/23/2005 3:17 AM >
| | | | For what it's worth, motion detectors in a commercial setting oftentimes have both infrared and a form of radar (usually in the microwave frequency range, we're talking milliwatts though). Those will be triggered by anything in the room moving if it's within its field of view. Better ones will even pick up something crawling on the floor near the detector.
Also for what it's worth, if the alarm is monitored, it DOES report power failures to the alarm company. Now whether the alarm company does anything with the power failure report or not depends on their contract - a restaurant I worked in had a run of the mill Ademco alarm system (one I've seen in houses too), coupled with the high end radio/infrared motion sensors. If the power went out, the alarm company would call to ask what was going on. Ironically, the phones there didn't work without power, so if there was an extended power outage we got to look forward to cops dropping by. This particular panel was programmed to even call the alarm company if the cover on the panel was opened, even with the alarm off.
In a nutshell, "blinding" an infrared sensor may work, but any decent alarm in a commercial installation will have radio/infrared sensors. A good giveaway is if the sensor has 2 or more lights on it (usually green, amber, and red), but not always.
<edit>Check out http://www.alarmsbc.com/dual.htm for some examples of the dual technology motion sensors. Some of the sensors on that page will also trip an alarm if something (such as a sheet of paper) blocks their view.
[last edit 11/23/2005 3:21 AM by The Bean - edited 2 times]
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kjones
location:
Providence, RI
Gender: Male
Ninja? Or frightened little boy?
| | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 30 on 11/23/2005 3:38 AM >
| | | | So, what... Tin foil, then lead foil? That would block millimeter-wave radar...
Forbidden fruit a flavor has
That lawful orchards mocks;
How luscious lies the pea within
The pod that Duty locks!
-Emily Dickinson on UE |
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The Bean
location:
Austin TX
Gender: Male
Some dude with a camera
| | | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 31 on 11/23/2005 4:29 AM >
| | | | It'd block it from penetrating your body, yes.
It'd still set it off though ;)
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aDeLtRiTuS
location:
south australia
Gender: Male
| | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 32 on 11/23/2005 9:48 AM >
| | | | get onto www.howstuffworks.com lots of good info on lotsa good stuff 
there is no such thing as death,life is just a dream reflected in the eyes of someone that is truley aware of time |
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PLAIN CLOTHES MAN
Gender: Male
"knocks before he enters"
| | | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 33 on 11/24/2005 6:45 AM >
| | | | Hey gang.
I too have considered many ways to stump the IR detectors. covering them seems like a viable idea, however there are a few things that make doing so difficult. As mentioned before these sensors trip when detecting a instantaneus IR change in the FOV. What do you think sticking something on the sensor is gonna do? Trip the sensor and sound alarms? You betcha. You might get away with it when the alarms are off when the building is occupied, but if done when you encounter them it will trip them. Another note, they typically don't have any means to be spotted in the dark until you've been detected so be careful.
We have to use something that has the same heat signature as the ambient temperature. By using something that bounces IR scanning, we can then stump the detectors. I've though recently about using a "space blanket" or "survival blanket" which can be found at most outdoors stores/wal-marts or a few bucks and a frame made out of tent poles or something similar. I have not tested it, but it seems like it would work.
Just my $.02
curiosity is not illegal |
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Pleiades
location:
Halifax
Gender: Male
| | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 34 on 11/24/2005 7:05 AM >
| | | | My method of covering it only works if you move the cover slowly enough not to trip the sensor, you have to go quite slowly, but it can be done. But yeah, some sort of "IR camo" to make you look the same as the surroundings would be better.
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statik
location:
colorado
There has got to be more to life than just being really, really, really, ridiculously good-looking.
| | | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 35 on 11/25/2005 11:19 AM >
| | | | Posted by Pleiades
But yeah, some sort of "IR camo" to make you look the same as the surroundings would be better.
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And unfortunately, as stated before (many times), such a miracle material does not exist. Thermal blankets, mylar, tinfoil, glass, plywood, whatever; they've all been suggested... and none of 'em will work.
Perhaps if someone could combine the concept of the invisibility cloak with OLED technology, they'd have something, but until then...
None more black.. |
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this_guy
location:
Chicago suburbs
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 36 on 11/25/2005 8:30 PM >
| | | | Why wouldn't the survival blanket idea work against passive infrared? You'd have to let it adjust to ambient temperature first, cover yourself, then pass the motion detectors before you warm up the inside enough to also warm up the outside. I don't think a suit that allows you to explore for an hour without setting off a PIR detector would be practical, but you should be able to pass a few sensors.
"Every sound shall end in silence, but the silence never dies." - from Samuel Miller Hagemen, found written on the wall of an abandoned building |
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MindHacker
location:
Suburbs of DC
Gender: Male
If you spot a terrorist arrow, pin it to the wall with your shoulder.
| | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 37 on 11/26/2005 3:19 AM >
| | | | I think a good number of the sensors are active, and pulse infrared with the LED on them. The thermal blanket won't work for the same reason that throwing things at the (motion sensing) lightswitchs work, because the room looks different than it did last pulse. My advice would be to use some form of white tape. Go in when it's not armed and place the tape over only the window of the sensor, and go back later (or go in, trip, tape, run, return). Who's gonna notice a different shade of color on the motion detector? I won't. It doesn't have to be thick, Ive blocked them with a tissue...
"That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire |
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statik
location:
colorado
There has got to be more to life than just being really, really, really, ridiculously good-looking.
| | | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 38 on 11/26/2005 7:37 AM >
| | | | Posted by this_guy
Why wouldn't the survival blanket idea work against passive infrared? You'd have to let it adjust to ambient temperature first, cover yourself, then pass the motion detectors before you warm up the inside enough to also warm up the outside. I don't think a suit that allows you to explore for an hour without setting off a PIR detector would be practical, but you should be able to pass a few sensors.
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Look at it from a logical perspective: why are security companies still installing these things if a two-dollar camping blanket from Wal-Mart renders them useless?
You guys are confusing infrared light with radiant heat, and the concepts are simply not interchangeable. You're all well and good with a blanket to keep all of your body heat in, but the material itself will emit or pass-through IR at a different frequency and intensity than its surroundings, regardless of the ambient temperature.
The only way to defeat PIR without covering the sensor or disabling the device itself would be to lower the room temperature (and that of your body) to absolute zero, at which point no material emits infrared energy.
...or with an OLED invisibility cloak, providing someone ever invents one.
None more black.. |
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this_guy
location:
Chicago suburbs
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Motion Detectors!!
<Reply # 39 on 11/27/2005 12:53 AM >
| | | | Posted by statik
Look at it from a logical perspective: why are security companies still installing these things if a two-dollar camping blanket from Wal-Mart renders them useless?
You guys are confusing infrared light with radiant heat, and the concepts are simply not interchangeable. You're all well and good with a blanket to keep all of your body heat in, but the material itself will emit or pass-through IR at a different frequency and intensity than its surroundings, regardless of the ambient temperature.
The only way to defeat PIR without covering the sensor or disabling the device itself would be to lower the room temperature (and that of your body) to absolute zero, at which point no material emits infrared energy.
...or with an OLED invisibility cloak, providing someone ever invents one.
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Pin tumbler locks are still in use even though they can be defeated by appropriately tooled street sweeper bristles. Or if you aren't cheap a $20 lock pick kit that has more picks than you'd ever need for most locks.
If the outside surface of the blanket is the same temperature as its surroundings, it will look like its surroundings in the IR area of the spectrum. It might not last very long, but it should work for a short time.
It's possible to defeat PIR motion detectors by simply moving slowly enough. I knew that much long before I knew how the sensors worked.
"Every sound shall end in silence, but the silence never dies." - from Samuel Miller Hagemen, found written on the wall of an abandoned building |
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