Re: a guide to basic rope work <Reply # 104 on 5/30/2011 4:57 PM >
Sorry about reviving this thread from the depths.
What do you guys do to remove twist from a rope? I've done the whole suspend it from a tree with some weights for a few hours which works pretty well. But was wondering if you guys had any other methods? I'm using a rather fat 11mm KMIII which likes to get spiraled from my figure eight. V-tech = V-Tek = Veetek = Witek. Make it count, say it right.
Re: a guide to basic rope work <Reply # 105 on 6/16/2011 7:48 AM >
Look at the rope and figure out which way its twisted and then coil it the opposite direction. If you could it right you'll take all the twist out. "Aint nothin' to it but to do it"
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Re: a guide to basic rope work <Reply # 106 on 6/20/2011 9:38 AM >
Posted by SnuggleBear
^^Super proud of this symmetrical, redundant, no-slack, anchor onto some AC vents on a roof.
That's by looks a very poor anchor setups. Noone ever taught you about ACUTE angles bro? Srsly? Or perhaps that your backups should be low/no slack in their pickup distance to avoid dynamic loading?
Deciding maybe it's not a good idea...
It might be a better idea if your screw locking biner was actually screwed closed. (or, if you weren't a pussy, either one, maybe both?)
Cheers. [last edit 6/20/2011 9:53 AM by Therrin - edited 1 times] Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =)
Therrin This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL Gender: Male
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Re: a guide to basic rope work <Reply # 107 on 6/20/2011 9:47 AM >
Posted by MindHacker
I use the hardware store carabiners occasionally. They're a pain to use, but for certain links that don't need to be opened much they work.
climbing gear is rated by breaking strength. Basically, 2700 lbs or so is enough to break your body, so that's your target. Anything higher than that is overkill. Typically, hardware store hardware is rated by working load, which will be 1/3rd the breaking strength. Thus, a 500lb pulley is good for about 1500 lbs breaking. As long as you aren't lead climbing on it, that's more than enough. Climbing pulleys are much more convenient, but at that time I didn't have the funds for it.
This statement is FAIL in so many ways it's almost painful to read.
Biners ARE rated in estimated breaking strength, but it has nothing to do with the equivalent impact on your body. Anchor biners and other uses of biners, and other gear can sustain very high forces through dynamic loading that your body doesn't actually absorb or may never be subjected to.
"as long as you aren't lead climbing" doesn't really mean shit when using hardware store equipment. Someone could do all kinds of stuff with their body attached to it without TRULY "lead climbing" that would be unsafe as all get out. You're using "lead climbing" as a throw-away term. Try doing it sometime.
I saved the best for last.
YOU <expletive deleted> <expletive deleted> <extremely rude name deleted>!!! WLL is 1/10th of tensile strength, not 1/3rd!!! You obviously don't know shit about anything. Quite giving out free advice that can potentially get people hurt, seriously injured, or killed. WLL vs TS is often rated differently for normal "work" load applications that it is for loading to keep humans safe.
Re: Static vs Dynamic: For the distance you're falling, it won't make a difference. Dynamic is nominally the correct answer, but it practice it won't make a difference.
Rope size: Also doesn't make a difference. 5mm would be sufficient because you won't be able to generate much force on a 3' fall. I use quickdraws because I'm not clipping in while climbing
You obviously haven't CLUE just how much force can be generated in a 3 ft fall. I suggest you study the subject a bita lot. Diameter of rope makes a HUUUGE difference for shockloading with dynamic forces.
As far as ATC vs rack: I think you want to start with an atc. Much simpler, no chance of tying in backwards and having it pop to your death, etc.
Have you ever actually USED a rack? Do you OWN a rack? Yes, most people should start out with an ATC. Yes, it is "simpler". But anyone who can learn to use an ATC properly can use a rack properly. ANYONE. If you tie in the rack upsidedown, the rack bars simply slide together and freeze the rope in place, and you go nowhere.
It's impossible to thread a rack so that it could pop the swing bars unless you thread it by the bitter end, by hand. Which isn't how you tie in a rack in the first place. And as soon as you put ANY pressure on it, they'd pop. Since you're supposed to check all your gear before you go over the edge, that shouldn't be an issue anyway. To properly thread a rack you do so using bights of rope, and you use those swing gates to pop out and feed those bights over them.
Racks are extremely efficient, they bleed off heat better than any other descending system, they are some of the STRONGEST descending devices built, which is why they're used almost universally in rescue applications. Racks also allow you to vary the braking force you need for variable weight loads. My rack is rated to 20,000lbs, which is 2,000lbs WLL. Once again, for those of you who DONT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE. It's tensile (static load breaking strength) is 10 tons. It's working load limit is 1 ton.
The amount of difference between tensile and WLL is a SAFETY BUFFER. Because you don't want a ratio in your safety buffer of 3:1 when you're dealing with your LIFe. That can be eaten up very quickly with the presence of dirt, knots, and dynamic load factors.
I highly suggest everyone should STUDY UP AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE and work with people who are SKILLED, EXPERT vertical access technicians if you have the opportunity. Don't take random advice from random people online who have never done these things professionally. Afterall, its your LIFE you're dealing with. [last edit 6/20/2011 10:10 AM by Therrin - edited 1 times] Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =)
If you spot a terrorist arrow, pin it to the wall with your shoulder.
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Re: a guide to basic rope work <Reply # 109 on 6/27/2011 3:52 PM >
@musketboy: Also, clip through the waist band / leg connector band, not just the tie-in-loop.
Posted by Therrin Biners ARE rated in estimated breaking strength, but it has nothing to do with the equivalent impact on your body.
...
Someone could do all kinds of stuff with their body attached to it without TRULY "lead climbing" that would be unsafe as all get out. You're using "lead climbing" as a throw-away term. Try doing it sometime.
...
WLL is 1/10th of tensile strength, not 1/3rd!!!
...
You obviously haven't CLUE just how much force can be generated in a 3 ft fall. I suggest you study the subject a bita lot. Diameter of rope makes a HUUUGE difference for shockloading with dynamic forces.
...
Have you ever actually USED a rack? Do you OWN a rack? Yes, most people should start out with an ATC.
...
It's impossible to thread a rack so that it could pop the swing bars unless you thread it by the bitter end, by hand. Which isn't how you tie in a rack in the first place. And as soon as you put ANY pressure on it, they'd pop. Since you're supposed to check all your gear before you go over the edge, that shouldn't be an issue anyway.
I snipped the name-calling and spazzing out of your post, and did the same to mine. Yelling at each other will just discourage people from posting, and then no one will ever learn.
Biners are generally designed with a ~2100 lb breaking strength because past that your body won't survive. Of course there are cases where stronger equipment is needed, but generally 2100 lbs is strong enough for anything you're going to throw at it climbing.
Now we come to WLL vs TS. I think we're looking at this from different ends. I'm starting with the WLL and calculating the TS, and I think you're starting with the TS and working back from there: If I want a 2100 lbs breaking strength hardware store biner, I'm going to go to the hardware store and look for something that is rated at 1/3rd that, so 700lbs working load. With gear that actually has a breaking-strength on the package (which isn't much in the hardware store), then I use your 10 factor. I'll look for a 2000 lbs rating when I want to work with 200.
Racks: I'm not sure why we're arguing this one. I own / use / love a rack. And like you said, if you thread it wrong it'll pop as soon as you put any test-load on it (which I always do). I was just trying to keep it simple for a complete beginner, who might not test-weight his gear and is probably not rapping 500' with an unconscious climber strapped to his back. So like you said, an ATC would be a better first descending device.
Both lead climbing and a few years of physics in uni taught me the dangers of dynamic loading. And yeah, there are plenty of stupid things I lumped in with lead climbing in my last post... too many to list, actually. But do you actually think a 3' fall would break a 5mm cord? I mean, I wouldn't choose 5mm cord for a dozen reasons, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't hold.
[last edit 6/27/2011 3:53 PM by MindHacker - edited 1 times] "That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire
Re: a guide to basic rope work <Reply # 110 on 8/12/2011 5:39 PM >
Thank you for making this guide. I'm learning how to use rope to my advantage when it comes to exploring and this really helped! You never stop learning.
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Re: a guide to basic rope work <Reply # 111 on 8/13/2011 4:25 AM >
@ Mindhacker: Yeah actually I think your post is still mostly full of crap. That's not the way to go about learning in the ropes/climbing/vertical access industry, and it's certainly not the way to go about teaching it.
Frankly, there are so many *PROFESSIONAL* texts and information out there as to how to go about these sports, that anyone can get their hands on for free. you'll find almost zero of the information you presented in that material. Conversely you'll find that most of my advice is based on that material.
There's a difference between working from a position of "things you think will work / you hope will work" and "things you know for a fact will work, and are proven and tested techniques and materials".
If you wanna screw around with your life, that's up to you, but you shouldn't be tempting others to do the same.
Case in point: You wanna walk into a hardware store and buy stuff based on its listed WLL that you suppose is any direct relation to a TS, and you're playing with fire. Life-safe devices are rated on known scales and ratios. General hardware does NOT always use those same ratios. For instance, a pulley rated for hardware use with a printed WLL of 200lbs may only have a TS of 500lbs, not 2000lbs.
And again, biners are not rated by limits conceived by disarticulation. They have to do with where you will place a piece in a system, and what various stresses may be imparted to the piece based on load factors and dynamic loading characteristics.
Again, racks, that's great you bought one and all. But almost noone feeds a rope through a rack by the end, which is the only way what you're suggesting could happen. If a rack is threaded *normally* you'll never have it pop loose; where you take bights of the rope one at a time and loop them OVER the hinge bars. This is a VERY SIMPLE concept, and is damn near fool-proof. A 5 year old could do it.
Taking a physics course in college will give you a basis for understand the forces in climbing systems, but it is not a substitution for learning how to actually do things the right way. Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =)
