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Server Time:
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 HellzBlaze
   
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Gender: Female
Inventory management is now My Plaything
 |  | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 120 on 9/29/2005 3:28 PM >
|  | | | After reading all the posts to this topic I have to say that what was said have valid points on both sides of the equation.
Yes there are LEGAL ramifications for UE'ing with a minor, especially if you are "caught" where those minors could potentially get hurt or in trouble(i.e. damaging property).
Yes there are a lot of minors that are mature enough for their age to understand the responsiblities of UE'ing.
BUT!
That doesn't mean that you should ban them from exploring all together. Like one of the other posters mentioned (I forget who said it at the moment) if you don't go with them/take them along they are probably going to do whatever they want themselves and potentially get into MORE trouble than what they would have had the 'major' was with them.
A lot about UE'ing is about respect, common sense and the desire to explore.
I hate to say it but too many 'kids' these days don't have the first two qualities in enough, for the lack of a better word, amounts. Simply because they are not taught to respect things, common sense is not shown and or learned from the people most predominant in their lives, such as parents and teachers.
Now for the record. I am not saying that ALL 'kids' are like this just it seems like a good majority of them are or show signs that they are like this. Which in my opinion is a very sad thing. Especially to hear about kids, children between the ages of 12 thru 17 threatening their teachers. What is the world coming to in general... not just in the world of UE?
The real trouble with reality is that there’s no background music. |
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David Hess
Location: Long Island, New York
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 121 on 9/29/2005 5:18 PM >
| | | | Simple. We don't bring anyone under 18 with us. If they happen to also be there, that's another story.
"Let the man who seeks revenge remember to dig two graves" |
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Kay O. Sweaver
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Gender: Male
Happiness is saying yes more often than no.
| | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 122 on 10/2/2005 7:32 AM >
| | | | Well I'll admit I didn't read the whole thread (seven pages, c'mon) but I agree with Hess. Don't encourage them in any way (including bringing them along) but do give advice if you run into them or find out about their activities.
I really saw/understood this while in Montreal when Nel58 was showing us around the Malting Plant. Several young kids were also in the building (not associated with any of us) and she kept an eye on them but didn't discourage them from being there or exploring. If they did something stupid like throwing rocks from the roof or vandalizing she gave them shit, but otherwise we left them alone. Seemed to work reasonably well.
P.S.: I notice a lot of talk about "maturity" when really the issue is one of responsibility. Minors have fewer responsibilities than the rest of us, the law is nicer to them, they probably still live at home, etc. This means they generally have less to lose than the rest of us. Often the limiting factor in what we will or will not do is related to the potential loss (of money, time, injury, etc.). The less you have to lose the more risks you're willing to take regardless of your maturity level. Believe me, I'd do some stupid shit if I didn't need to deal with the potential consequences.
[last edit 10/2/2005 7:36 AM by Kay O. Sweaver - edited 1 times]
==========================
Amy Smith is an infected slut |
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nd31
| | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 123 on 10/2/2005 5:13 PM >
| | | | I think it should be entirely dependant on circumstance. I know of adults who are less mature than a kazoo, and I also know people of my own age who understand the implications of the law. If someone chooses not to explore with someone out of their age group for legal reasons or otherwise, I respect that. An adult certainly has a more difficult time in explaining their situation than a minor. But I don't think all minors should be categorically lumped into a nice little pile of immaturity. It's not that simple.
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Oblivion Machine
Location: Denver, Coloraado
Gender: Female
Meddling kid
| | | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 124 on 10/2/2005 7:30 PM >
| | | | I am well aware that my response is not so valuable in this situation, but I have one regardless.
I've been always told I'm fairly mature, and I can handle a lot of things admittedly most kids my age can't. But in addition to being mature, I'm also very, very honest. And I wouldn't honestly feel comfortable exploring as of yet with someone older who isn't interested in mentoring me. I'm a beginner and I require instruction and attention and an extra risk. But I'll be just fine reading how the big kids do it and sticking with my friends of similar age. I would be pretty offended if an adult or group of adults exploring the same site recommended I leave, but if they really felt my presence was unnecessary, I'd come back another time.
I definitely think it is up to the adult to decide a minor's level of involvement. And hopefully sometimes that will come out in my favor.
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Kay O. Sweaver
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Gender: Male
Happiness is saying yes more often than no.
| | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 125 on 10/5/2005 3:29 AM >
| | | | Wow. I think you left your teenage angst somewhere. You'd better go find it! ;)
==========================
Amy Smith is an infected slut |
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HillbillyHorus
Location: Charlottesville Virginia
Gender: Male
Im in ur government, killin ur d00dz
| | | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 126 on 10/6/2005 1:07 AM >
| | | | You guys are still missing the point. Many adults would be fine exploring with teens, but that doesn't matter. You can be the most mature person in the world, but if you're a kid caught exploring with an adult the adult will get in HUGE trouble. To give another point, as Tick has told me, it's dangerous for an adult to even give a minor info on location for a drain, as if you get hurt in it your parents could sue. Even if your parents wouldn't sue, I explore with several other minors, and I don't know their parents well enough to say for sure what they'd do in a situation like that.
Edit: As for an age limit on the forums, I find that rediculous. First of all, it's incredibly easy to fake your age, secondly I think it's better for minor explorers to see this, as it gives a lot of advice on safety, which I think is more of a help than the potential harm caused by the LDB.
[last edit 10/6/2005 1:42 AM by HillbillyHorus - edited 1 times]
You can't fall off a mountain. |
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trickmonster
Location: Larwence Park
Gender: Male
| | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 127 on 10/21/2005 5:09 PM >
|  | | | Im 16 and i dont think theres a problem with me comin along... i mean its still ilegal wat ur doin and the art and fun of UE should be shared with everyone.... heh?
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mazatec
Location: Birmingham, AL
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 128 on 10/21/2005 6:23 PM >
| | | | | You guys are still missing the point. Many adults would be fine exploring with teens, but that doesn't matter. You can be the most mature person in the world, but if you're a kid caught exploring with an adult the adult will get in HUGE trouble. |
I think the point is that some adults are okay with it, despite the possible consequences. Everyone knows that you can get in trouble by UE'ing with a minor. Some people just don't care.
It's like how some people choose to speed or use drugs (or for that matter, trespass on private property). Yeah, it's against the law; you just have to decide if the risk is worth it.
Don't do it if it makes you uncomfortable, otherwise don't get caught. It's personal preference.
Edit: this post isn't directed at you. The thread just seems to be going back and forth between "I take minors along" and "Taking minors with you will get you in serious trouble! Don't do it!" Your post was just easy to quote.
Personally, I'd do it if they were cool. I don't know anyone under 18 though.
[last edit 10/21/2005 6:56 PM by mazatec - edited 3 times]
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Jonsered
  
Location: Back in New Mexico where I belong
Gender: Male
Dressed for a scarecrow ball.........
| |  | | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 129 on 10/21/2005 6:42 PM >
| | | | Posted by Oblivion Machine
And I wouldn't honestly feel comfortable exploring as of yet with someone older who isn't interested in mentoring me. I'm a beginner and I require instruction and attention and an extra risk.
I definitely think it is up to the adult to decide a minor's level of involvement. And hopefully sometimes that will come out in my favor.
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I've never taken a minor on a UE trip, but I've taken a bunch of them Ghost Towning. Oblivion Machine is just the type I enjoy going with. Willing to learn and pay attention, but not arrogant or obnoxious. Instruction and attention is how anyone learns anything. Furthermore, if one of these younger explorers is turned down by adults, they may decide to just go on their own, and that can be dangerous. If my older buds hadn't ever taken me on a mine trip, I wouldnt' have known about vertical shafts hidden under the water, bad air, not leaning on framework, etc. Evaluate the individual, not the age. From reading some of the postings on this site, there are plenty of adults I would never go underground with.
Rejoice, O young man, in your youth, and let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth; walk in the ways of your heart, and in the sight of your eyes - Ecclesiastes 11:9
I have changed my personal exploring ethics code. From now on it will be: "Take only aimed shots, leave only hobo corpses." Copper scrappers, meth heads and homeless beware. The Jonsered cometh among you, bringing fear and dread.
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White Rabbit
Women's Advocate
Location: Missouri
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 130 on 5/24/2006 5:14 AM >
| | | | What the fuck do you people keep talking about maturity for? EVERY freaking minor thinks they're more mature than their peers, and even if they are, it doesn't mean dick to this conversation. This was about whether or not it was wise to break the motherfucking law with them, and that has nothing to do with how super-duper mature they think they are.
You get busted with a minor, you're in deep shit. Period. Is it wise to risk that? THAT was the question.
For crying out loud.
Underground Ozarks http://www.undergroundozarks.com
Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Kansas |
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Doug
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 131 on 5/24/2006 5:37 AM >
| | | | Hi, I read the first few posts before noticing it's 8 pages long and read the few above - so this post is just from my experience and not influenced by the posts in this thread.
In Australia many of us have a "no under 18s" rule.
There are exceptions. If you are are over 18 and bring a minor along such as a friend or relative (many 18 or 19 year olds have under age friends) then it is pretty much their responsibility.
If "we" think a minor is mature enough then they may be invited to "softer" expos.
We've been though through this a lot over the last 20 years and it seems to work - unless you are under 18  We've had people waiting for 2 or so years to join.
I don't have a problem with minors exploring with each other at all.
I would hate to be present when anyone dies exploring, but if it was an adult explorer I would fell less responsible than if it was a 15 year old.
When Brian McHugh drowned in my local drain, the police found he had made his own Cave Clan t-shirt and his mother said that he was always saying, "I can't wait till I'm 18 to join the Clan". Maybe if we let him join he would be alive today? The thing is, we copped almost no slack because he was not in the group - if he was we would have been fucked!
That's my opinion.
Cheers,
Doug.
PS. I started exploring when I was about 12 and I couldn't have stopped back then even if I wanted to.
The Urbex Zine Guy
https://www.cavecl...wtopic.php?t=12259
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Squidgit
Location: Brighton Ontario
Gender: Female
There is not a sprig of grass that shoots uninteresting to me
| | | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 132 on 5/24/2006 12:23 PM >
| | | | I am 22 years old, my husband is 27.. So I really don't care about any of this. There has only 2 times that we have explored with OTHER people... and even that, everyone was over 18.. especially fedge (hehehe)
Cheers
The richness I achieve comes from Nature, the source of my inspiration. |
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c1rc4
Location: Northern Virginia
Gender: Female
| | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 133 on 5/24/2006 3:47 PM >
| | | | I have to agree...less risky places are the ones I'd explore with someone under 18. I tend to stick with people 18 and over though, since if I'm caught with a minor I'd be in a lot of trouble since it already looks bad that I have a record.
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bradeno
Location: Harlem, CT
Gender: Male
No war but the Social war.
| | | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 134 on 5/24/2006 6:39 PM >
| | | | It all depends of your area, and personal morals, It's obvious there is no right or wrong. Where I am from, if you are 16, you WILL be charged as an adult, and are considered to be able to make your own decisions (CT has sent 16+17 year olds to to prison for life). I have been arrested for B+E/Trespassing while with an "adult" and he was not given any additional charges for endangering a minor because I was/am 17 at the time. So I suppose where you are from also constitutes how you may feel about bringing a minor with you, I can only suggest you look into your local laws to see what your state really considers a minor, and then you can get a good judge on how you feel about bringing one with you. Also if you would feel terrible if a kid got hurt with you it might not be good idea, But I know I'd feel terrible if anyone was with got hurt, child or not.
My .02
-Braden O'Sullivan
www.myspace.com/treesisdyin |
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Majickal
Location: Evansville, Indiana
Gender: Male
<3 Home Depot
| | | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 135 on 5/26/2006 3:15 AM >
| | | | I am 17 but I will be 18 soon. People posting "This is ridiculous! You people are age discriminatory, etc." It is not because they think you are immature. A cop doesn't care if it was a soft or hard expo, he doesn't care how mature you are. Go with people your own age or an adult that is willing to take the risk, but when I turn 18, it's no more exploring with Shai Hulud for about a month. it sucks, but unless there are some changes to the way these charges against adults with minors work, adults caught with minors are screwed.
This is the sig |
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fopjn01
Location: Springfield Ma. USA
Gender: Male
| | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 136 on 5/26/2006 3:34 AM >
| | | | I say if you are UE'ing with a minor, and suddenly U R in danger of getting caught...
Smack the kid in the knee with your mag light, and run like a SonofaBitch.
This gives you a lot more time to get your geezer ass outta town.
Besides, <18 won't do any time, and the young heal quickly.
If you have done things right people won't be sure if you have done anything at all. |
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Majickal
Location: Evansville, Indiana
Gender: Male
<3 Home Depot
| | | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 137 on 5/26/2006 3:47 AM >
| | | | <3 fopjn01
This is the sig |
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Squidgit
Location: Brighton Ontario
Gender: Female
There is not a sprig of grass that shoots uninteresting to me
| | | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 138 on 5/26/2006 5:31 PM >
| | | | Posted by fopjn01
I say if you are UE'ing with a minor, and suddenly U R in danger of getting caught...
Smack the kid in the knee with your mag light, and run like a SonofaBitch.
This gives you a lot more time to get your geezer ass outta town.
Besides, <18 won't do any time, and the young heal quickly.
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omg I snorted at this.. too funny, I love you...
The richness I achieve comes from Nature, the source of my inspiration. |
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Lexi
Location: Oslo, Norway
Gender: Female
I'm getting old.
| | Re: Age Limits
<Reply # 139 on 5/26/2006 7:35 PM >
| | | | Posted by fopjn01
I say if you are UE'ing with a minor, and suddenly U R in danger of getting caught...
Smack the kid in the knee with your mag light, and run like a SonofaBitch.
This gives you a lot more time to get your geezer ass outta town.
Besides, <18 won't do any time, and the young heal quickly.
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Exactly.
When I go exploring with people of age, if there's any sign of trouble, I'll split and make for an entirely different part of the building.
There are so many different views and sides to this issue that it's far too overwhelming for me to even get started. I respect everyone's opinion, and if you don't want to explore with me, I won't be offended because everyone has a right to choose their company.
[last edit 5/26/2006 7:35 PM by Lexi - edited 1 times]
[15:00:33] <SeeThirty> cause you're not likely to be anywhere that other people haven't been who didn't have protection
[15:00:41] <SeeThirty> still better safe than lexi |
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