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1 2 3 4   UER Forum > Archived UE Main > Censorship / UE information wants to be free. (Viewed 3229 times) Poll Question: Is it acceptable to post lists of GPS locations to sites in the trusted area of the site? Total Votes: 119 1. Yes, but make it visible to non trusted people too. 6 5.04 % 2. Yes, as long as it is in the trusted area. 60 50.42 % 3. No, information about the locations of sites should not be on this web site at all. 28 23.53 % 4. No, information about locations should not be in the forums, only in the location database. 25 21.01 % Panic!  This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information. Location: Australia Big drain driving  |  |  Censorship / UE information wants to be free. < on 6/21/2005 8:17 AM >   I just popped online after a couple of days offline due to exploring and heading out on a date. To my surprise one of the posts I made was gone, I mean like totally gone. I got some PMs explaining why though. I had posted a list of GPS coordinates for some UE locations in Australia, mostly drains, a couple of bridge rooms, some bunkers and a mine. All places which I have explored. All coordinates which I compiled myself. I figured the UE DB has addresses for hundreds of locations, so it should not be a problem. But, well my thread got pulled. And not because I broke any rules, but well, apparently in the interests of preserving the locations. Okay, I can understand that, to a degree. But the thread was not publicly available. No one who was not "trusted" on level 3 could have viewed it. The only people who could have viewed it was people who people here trust, and most of them would have known those locations anyway. It would have been of benefit mainly to newbies starting out who had the intelligence to use a GPS receiver, or to locate online maps. We're not talking 12 year olds here. I have a bit of a problem understanding why a list of GPS coordinates available only to trusted members should be pulled, when UE DB locations are allowed. I found it very frustrating I was not consulted about the locations being pulled, and no rules were broken. Without going into a shit fight, because I realise this site is Av's and he can do what he wants, I am never the less interested in people's opinions about if this information should be free, as I am considering placing this information on my own web site. Please when posting, if your opinion differs from others, respect that and state your opinion but be respectful of their right to express theirs. No flamewars thanks. Cheers, Panic! Live your life like it really makes a difference. What have you done today to make you feel proud? John Lennon was a wise man. All the world living together as one. parallax  Location: Sydney, Australia. Gender: Male Cave Clan are go!!  |  |  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 1 on 6/21/2005 9:44 AM >   All the locations you listed were found by Cave Clan members, and it is a policy of joining the Cave Clan that all location details are kept in-house and non-public. This is one of the largest reasons why the Cave Clan is perhaps the best organised and well informed urban exploration groups in the world. We have grown stronger over the past 20years by sharing information between members, a privilege P A N I C ! himself was once given. Regardless of whether you are in the Cave Clan now or not, it is simple respected courtesy to uphold this agreement for the reasons of location preservation for ALL urban explorers in Australia and those wishing to come here. If that information was to fall into the wrong hands, some very sensitive locations (which you listed) could be locked up tighter due to reckless tagging, graffiti, vandalism or potential terrorist motives. Believe me when I say that the Cave Clan has an open information policy. But we believe that information should only be given to those who WE KNOW will use it for Urban Exploration purposes. If you wish to explore these locations, please contact P A N I C ! in person or send a request to [email protected] Regards, parallax [email protected] Cave Clan Australia Panic!  This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information. Location: Australia Big drain driving  |  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 2 on 6/21/2005 10:27 AM >   Well hey dude, what's the problem with information being here? I mean I have no agreements with you at all. Besides, no one owns information like GPS coordinates. I compiled them, but hey I can't walk along and stick a little notice "property of Panic!" on them. There was also no such agreements when I was in the clan. Predator used to publish location sheets on web sites, with the stipulation that they were not copyright, and people should spread them like hell. And drains are sensitive locations? Hell no. Besides, you guys sell those location sheets to anyone. ASIO and the AFP both have copies of them. Why are you worried who has that info? Besides, there's still location sheets online if you know where to look. A list of GPS locations of drains and a few other sites in the members area of this web site is not going to be seen by anyone other than trusted people from this site. Information wants to be free. Live your life like it really makes a difference. What have you done today to make you feel proud? John Lennon was a wise man. All the world living together as one. parallax  Location: Sydney, Australia. Gender: Male Cave Clan are go!!  |  |  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 3 on 6/21/2005 10:37 AM >   I will re-iterate: The Cave Clan takes this approach for the preservation of ALL locations for ALL urban explorers in Australia and around the globe who wish to visit here. I don't think it necessary to remind you - but in Ausralia there is a 10 year minimum gaol sentence for anyone providing information (unknowingly or not) that could be used in a terrorist attack. The world has changed, our hobby is viewed in the public eye as not only dangerous to our health but hazardous to their security. As much as it pains me to say it, <predator> is dead. All C/C info on his C@talyst servers has either been removed or blocked from public access. ASIO, NSW Police or the SES are not who we are worried about having this information. It is the people who we don't know that will use it for potentially wreckless and dangerous motives. [last edit 6/21/2005 10:39 AM by parallax - edited 1 times] Cave Clan Australia Doug  Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 4 on 6/21/2005 11:23 AM >   From what I heard, a couple of locations were very sensitive ones that had been locked-down for many years and had recently been cunningly opened (Deathstar and Dreadnought). The last time I spoke to Predator about locations, he said that he had taken them down and also that people had used his location lists/known.doc without his permission. Personally I'd rather not have the locations on public view, but anyone that knows me knows that. Thanks. Doug The Urbex Zine Guy https://www.cavecl...wtopic.php?t=12259 Mark  Very Noble Donor Location: South Carolina Gender: Male What is a lion, king of the savannah, when hes at the south pole?  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 5 on 6/21/2005 11:36 AM >   No offense to the gods that be here, and I know this has been debated to much, what is going on here? We secure the site, we secure who can post on it, we block new people from the key things that allow them to expand, and now we douse a list of GPS quards for the sake of preservation? I know what you guys are imposeing these rules for honorable intensions, but the road to hell is paved with good intensions. This open community has gotten very exclusive, or at least semi exclusive. Why has freedom taken the back seat to security? This feels like the patriot act on UE. Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but so many of you are against the P Act but, find this ok. I dont understand why. "If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles" Raider  Not Gay Location: Whitby, Ontario, Canada Gender: Male <Intelligent>  |  |  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 6 on 6/21/2005 12:37 PM >   I agree with Mark, I don't see any problem at all. Like Mark said we have really cracked down with the Level 3 section and who we allow view certain forum sections and locations.. Drain's aren't buildings and can't be destroyed very easily... (Minus spraypaint). How many people are Level 3 that live in Australia anyways? I don't think showing GPS coordinates would harm anything. I'm all for preserving UE locations and all but I hate it when people think that locations need to be top secret. I mean it's just a drain or building... Some people take this hobby way to seriously, theres a good median in exploring and some people need to find that. [13:54:15] <Agent_Skelly> Well, a friend of mine I had "benifits" with last fall was 420 lbs [13:54:51] <Raider> Wow.... that is large.... now she doesn't crush you or anything? Not to be rude but seriously I'd suffocate 4:15:42] <bobtheallmighty> in my experiance there are very few things that are irregular when it comes to sex >_> Chainsaw  This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information. Location: Underground, Colorado Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 7 on 6/21/2005 1:06 PM >   Here's my take on it - This information could easily be posted in the LDB - there is now a way to include coordinates with any location in the LDB - all viewable by L3 members unless the location is made "public". So, Panic! going through and compiling an australia list to condense some of the available information into a single post in the forum, I believe is completely in line with the security and preservation standards we have already set here at UER. He is not sharing any more information than would be available regularly in the LDB. I don't think UER admins were within bounds to remove it for that reason. Also, I understand that the request may have come from the Clan. If they specifically requested it be removed I can see how a mod would move to fulfill that request. Clan has a lot of respect here on UER, no question about it. However, if that is the issue then I believe it is an issue between Panic! and the Clan. I think UER should restore his post. He is an L3 member and his actions were in line with the goal of this site - sharing information between explorers. If the Clan has no respect for us as a group of explorers or lacks faith in the L3 system here and they wish to keep this information out of our hands then I think it's the Clan's problem, not UER's. Quid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur. DjMalign  Location: Fort Collins, CO Gender: Male Sexy, sexy, sexy  |  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 8 on 6/21/2005 1:58 PM >   While I respect the cave clan you guys don't own any location. If I had done research and found the locations, would you prevent me from posting them? There's no such thing as finders keepers in UE. I hate all of you andrea  Location: Baltimore MD Gender: Female Apparently, I am heinous.  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 9 on 6/21/2005 3:56 PM >   If I remember correctly, the GPS was kinda thrown out because it would lead some one right to the door step, and this was a topic long before anything about trust came up. The addresses were removed from sites when it came to the trust stuff. But my objection to putting any of this stuff in the site is it takes away from me having to find a place or me needing to do some background work. With the address or GPS I can just put them in mapquest and have my directions printed out for me. I can see what you all are saying with the trust stuff though, but massively handing out addresses to people trusted or not kinda steps over a line. If need be just PM the maker of the location for this information... This isn't boot camp and you are not a ninja. But you sure look like an idiot in that outfit. Chainsaw  This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information. Location: Underground, Colorado Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 10 on 6/21/2005 4:18 PM >   Posted by andrea If I remember correctly, the GPS was kinda thrown out because it would lead some one right to the door step, and this was a topic long before anything about trust came up. The addresses were removed from sites when it came to the trust stuff. But my objection to putting any of this stuff in the site is it takes away from me having to find a place or me needing to do some background work. With the address or GPS I can just put them in mapquest and have my directions printed out for me. I can see what you all are saying with the trust stuff though, but massively handing out addresses to people trusted or not kinda steps over a line. If need be just PM the maker of the location for this information... Coordinate information is available when creating or editing a location. Just having coordinates can make it easier to find something but I don't think anyone is twisting your arm to use them if you don't want. I'm pretty sure the location info in the DB and some changes coming down from Avatar-X to the DB layout are the reason for Av tightening his belt. The whole idea of L3 was to share information more freely. Of course, nobody is twisting your arm to INCLUDE coordinate information, so unless you feel compelled to do so you don't have to provide it. [last edit 6/21/2005 4:18 PM by Chainsaw - edited 1 times] Quid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur. andrea  Location: Baltimore MD Gender: Female Apparently, I am heinous.  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 11 on 6/21/2005 4:37 PM >   Nevermind, I was confused... But thats my opinion on that if anyone cares at this point This isn't boot camp and you are not a ninja. But you sure look like an idiot in that outfit. Yehoshua  Location: Ontario Gender: Male  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 12 on 6/21/2005 4:58 PM >   You people say gaol still? hehehe Our Citizen. Our Justice. Bring Omar Khadr back to Canada. Explorer Zero   |  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 13 on 6/21/2005 5:31 PM >   voted but got no dog in this fight really Latitude and longitude can be derived from just about any online map imaging source with your mouse cursor these days so I would say address or general description or lat/lon all amounts to the same issue. I would be interested to know how well the DB vs the forum is secure from search engines etc. if anyone cares to elaborate or PM me. Avatar-X  Alpha Husky Location: West Coast Gender: Male yay!  |  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 14 on 6/21/2005 5:48 PM >   Our rules have, since the beginning, stated that revealing the ENTRY DETAILS is not allowed. That means: It's OK to say that the house is at co-ords xxx, or at ### street address, but it's NOT OK to say "You have to climb in through the second floor window" or even "There's a hole in the fence around the back." Now, with the case of DRAINS, providing co-ordinates that lead someone to the exact position of the infall/outfall is identical to giving entry details. With drains, once you've found the place, you're pretty much in. So therefore, co-ordinates or street intersections are considered "entry details". Please do not post entry details. -av huskies - such fluff. Raider  Not Gay Location: Whitby, Ontario, Canada Gender: Male <Intelligent>  |  |  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 15 on 6/21/2005 6:24 PM >   Posted by Avatar-X Now, with the case of DRAINS, providing co-ordinates that lead someone to the exact position of the infall/outfall is identical to giving entry details. I've been on UER for well over a year now and I haven't challenged you once but I'm going to here.. Not to cause you grief but because what your stating is pointless.. The whole idea behind this I think is that nobody wants people to ruin a location based on information giving. For instances if a kid found out where this drain was and spray painted it. However if you completely believe in your Level 3 system Av, you should trust the members that you have selected. Not to many people like the Level 3 system because they think that it is too strict. I like the system however it is very strict and because of this I think that location of drains should definitely be allowed to be posted. I would still enforce the don't tell people how exactly to get in. You say that the opening of a drain is exactly the same as giving an address for a location. Now the kids have the location of the building and if they are going there with intent to cause damage they will do so whether you tell them the entry point or not. Maybe I'm rambling about nothing? Who knows... I just don't see the big deal. [13:54:15] <Agent_Skelly> Well, a friend of mine I had "benifits" with last fall was 420 lbs [13:54:51] <Raider> Wow.... that is large.... now she doesn't crush you or anything? Not to be rude but seriously I'd suffocate 4:15:42] <bobtheallmighty> in my experiance there are very few things that are irregular when it comes to sex >_> Frost  Location: K.Dot Gender: Male No beer makes Frosty go..something something..(Taz: Crrazzy?)..Dont mind if I doo!  |  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 16 on 6/21/2005 8:13 PM >   Posted by Raider I've been on UER for well over a year now and I haven't challenged you once but I'm going to here.. Not to cause you grief but because what your stating is pointless.. The whole idea behind this I think is that nobody wants people to ruin a location based on information giving. For instances if a kid found out where this drain was and spray painted it. However if you completely believe in your Level 3 system Av, you should trust the members that you have selected. Not to many people like the Level 3 system because they think that it is too strict. I like the system however it is very strict and because of this I think that location of drains should definitely be allowed to be posted. I would still enforce the don't tell people how exactly to get in. You say that the opening of a drain is exactly the same as giving an address for a location. Now the kids have the location of the building and if they are going there with intent to cause damage they will do so whether you tell them the entry point or not. Maybe I'm rambling about nothing? Who knows... I just don't see the big deal. I'd have to agree with you. The logic behind this is fucked up.... You're allowed to post the address to a location, but not a GPS to a drain?!? Because the GPS brings you right to the drain "door" so-to-speak? But the address brings you RIGHT to the building does it not? Of course it does. Does giving only an address and no entry point actually prevent a site from being damaged even more? HELL NO!!!! If you think removing entry details but leaving only an address is going to save our precious sites, then I suggest you sit down, I have something to tell you. IT WON'T!!!! If some punk ass motherfucker is kicking around looking for a place to hang, party and drink with his friends finds an address, but no entry, you can damn bet that if they're as destructive as we all feel they are, they'll make their own fucking entrance anyways. Retarded, like everything around here, you people are so fucking anal, make me sick. Why is marijuana not legal? Why is marijuana not legal? Its a natural plant that grows in the dirt. You know what's not natural, 80 year old dudes with hardons. Thats not natural, but we got pills for that. We're dedicating all our resources to keeping the old guys erect but we're puttin people in jail for smoking something that grows in the dirt. Agent Skelly  Web Sheriff Location: Oregon Territory Gender: Male Prenez De L'Avance Avec Chrysler!  |  |  |  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 17 on 6/21/2005 8:44 PM >   I was in Av's loft when he got the PM from someone about this thread with the GPS Coordinates of the drain entry points. My suggestion would be post where GPS coordinates of the middle section between the entry points, so that way its vauge enough to know where where it is, yet you have to find the entry points themselves. Though I am sure there is a flaw in my suggestion possibly. [last edit 6/21/2005 8:45 PM by Agent Skelly - edited 1 times] DjMalign  Location: Fort Collins, CO Gender: Male Sexy, sexy, sexy  |  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 18 on 6/21/2005 8:49 PM >   I dunno about anyone else but if you keep it in a level 3 section all is fair game. Frost, while not saying it eloquently is absolutely right. To me it seems like Cave Clan's political clout gets the advantage here. I hate all of you Panic!  This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information. Location: Australia Big drain driving  |  |  Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free. <Reply # 19 on 6/21/2005 9:24 PM >   The fact is, you guys SELL this information. That, and control are the sole reasons why you don't want it on the web. You MAKE MONEY out of selling location information. And you'll use whatever excuse or reason you can find to control that information so you can continue to sell it. And since I've brought that information recently using a fake name and addres, I know you sell that information to anyone, not just people you know. Posted by parallax I don't think it necessary to remind you - but in Ausralia there is a 10 year minimum gaol sentence for anyone providing information (unknowingly or not) that could be used in a terrorist attack. SHIT! Wow, how scarey, cow-towing to the authority. Since when has that happened? I thought our aim was to ignore authority. Otherwise it would hardly be Urban Exploration would it. Well I guess the following people are going to gaol: Silogen for: http://www.uer.ca/...ow.asp?locid=22443 Provides the street address of a drain. Silogen again (that's 20 years) for: http://www.uer.ca/...ow.asp?locid=21976 Provides exact street address of a drain. Poor Silogen again: http://www.uer.ca/...ow.asp?locid=21887 And yet again: http://www.uer.ca/...ow.asp?locid=21516 Not too precise but well I'm sure terrorists could use that. Oh shit, the TV news just mentioned our PM is going to Japan, 10 years for the TV news reporter. That could be used in an attack you know. Oh crap, Silogen's screwed now, here's the location of a (disused) power station that some one might want to you know, blow up. Exact street address too. http://www.uer.ca/...ow.asp?locid=21925 I'm sure I could have listed more, but I have to go to work. Also, I'm not having a go at Silogen, I respect the man and his work. I'm just pointing out that some of the arguments here are invalid. GPS location details do not constitute entry details. The GPS location information I had posted was not more accurate than some of the location information already in the UEDB. One of the first thing that repressive regimes such as Naziism and the Bath Party do is censor and control information. Live your life like it really makes a difference. What have you done today to make you feel proud? John Lennon was a wise man. All the world living together as one. UER Forum > Archived UE Main > Censorship / UE information wants to be free. (Viewed 3229 times) 1 2 3 4   All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire. To contact webmaster, or click to email with problems or other questions about this site: UER CONTACT View Terms of Service | View Privacy Policy | Server colocation provided by Beanfield This page was generated for you in 218 milliseconds. Since June 23, 2002, a total of 741880771 pages have been generated.