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 Chainsaw
   
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Underground, Colorado
Gender: Male
 |  |  | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 40 on 6/22/2005 12:41 PM >
|  | | | Well it looks like Panic! and the Clan have sorted out their issue on who says what where, so back to the question of what UER does.
If, as AV said the post was made publically viewable and searchable should a Mod remove it, or seeing that it contains sensitive information mark it L3?
Do we need a guideline on how this kind of post should be handled? Mods can delete whatever they want but in all fairness do we really need to delete such information or just secure it?
I would say that if an L2 user posted the information it should be removed, seeing as how securing it would make it in accessible by the author. But if an L3 user does it, MOD sees it or someone points them to it, perhaps in stead of getting "one of your posts has been removed..." they should get a "one of your posts contained sensitive location information and has been removed from the public view..."
Of course if someone were to post to an already public thread with sensitive information I don't think it would be fair to block the thread entirely. I dunno...whatever.
Quid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
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kowalski
 
| | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 41 on 6/22/2005 4:27 PM >
| | | | Mods have the ability to flip a thread from public to private, it's mostly a question of whether a mod recognizes a thread as needing flipping before it becomes an issue.
Either way, in this case I don't know why Panic would publish this sort of information here. He's about the only drainer in the world with a serious issue with the cave clan. Anybody from overseas who'd actually appreciate these sites he tried to provide GPS for would be contacting someone from CC in a heartbeat to access their assistance. Having done a fair bit of out of area exploring, and having an emotional attachment to a lot of locations in my area that I had a part in uncovering, I recognize exactly where Doug et al are coming from in not wanting such a list published here regardless of whether the thread is public or private.
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GMGuy
Gender: Male
| | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 42 on 6/22/2005 4:45 PM >
| | | | Personally, I see nothing wrong with GPS coordinates to give you a ballpark location. I'm the person who goes to explore the subject, not to find the darn thing to begin with. I also don't care if somebody tells me the ending of a movie I have not seen. I also do not care about spoiler space, for me it does not take away from what I seek as the end result of the explore.
Aside from UE, GPS coords exist for just about everything of interest out there, wether you are a train buff, highway hound, or just using the mapping program that came with your GPS to find gas stations, train stations, schools, and whatever other POI the maker decided to include. Tied in with other hobbies (go see the benchmark thread) gps coords for a drain (or other abandonment) are probably on the web already by somebody whos only interest is to map out the places. Having them with the subject matter is only natural.
Alex.
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Doug
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 43 on 6/23/2005 2:50 AM >
| | | | Posted by unikprodukt
Just a quick point. It doesn't seem a good situation to be charging people, even if it is just to cover costs, like you said, "there is a 10 year minimum gaol sentence for anyone providing information (unknowingly or not) that could be used in a terrorist attack."
Somehow I think if you sold that info to someone it would look worse.
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Yeah. I think some people would like you to think that we sell hundreds of these list a week when really we... I've only sold hundreds in 20 years.
I'm not sure if Australia has the same laws... YET!
Anyway, for the last few years locations have been emailed to people.
The option is still there to get printed copies or the DrainGuide which includes colour photos and the like... it's up to individuals if they wish to buy it.
The best thing is that you can read them on the toilet 
The Urbex Zine Guy
https://www.cavecl...wtopic.php?t=12259
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PoT.
 
Location: Vancouver Area, BC
Gender: Male
What? I'm not supposed to be here?
| | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 44 on 6/23/2005 5:22 AM >
| | | | Posted by Doug
The best thing is that you can read them on the toilet
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I thought that was the point of WiFi
Cheers!
-PoT
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Panic!
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Australia
Big drain driving
| | | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 45 on 6/24/2005 12:08 AM >
| | | | Posted by kowalski
Either way, in this case I don't know why Panic would publish this sort of information here. He's about the only drainer in the world with a serious issue with the cave clan. Anybody from overseas who'd actually appreciate these sites he tried to provide GPS for would be contacting someone from CC in a heartbeat to access their assistance.
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Kowalski, it's about being able to do what I want, when I want, without interference or censorship. I don't have a serious issue with the clan. I have a serious issue with anyone who thinks they can just tell me what to do. How would you feel if anytime you decided to do your own thing in UE you had to constantly tippy toe around so that someone you never met or didn't even know does not have a blast at you? I'm fed up with that shit. I just want to do my own thing.
There is a small but growing number or UErs in Australia who have nothing to do with the clan. Several of them use this site. I was posting locations at the request of one of those, in a place they could access it.
I'm not the sort of person who appreciated being constantly stomped on because I have differeing opinions to people. I want to get out there and explore, and if I want to share information, then so be it. Until I posted those locations no one would have suggested that GPS locations could be considered entry details. But well, hey, some loop hole had to be found to remove them. I'm getting tiered of that bullshit too.
Live your life like it really makes a difference.
What have you done today to make you feel proud?
John Lennon was a wise man. All the world living together as one. |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 46 on 6/24/2005 12:13 AM >
|  | | | Panic, the obvious solution is to post whatever the fuck you want on your own site. What you post there is entirely up to you. Posting it anywhere else, you are invariably going to have issues.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Doug
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 47 on 6/24/2005 3:16 AM >
| | | | Posted by Panic!
There is a small but growing number or UErs in Australia who have nothing to do with the clan. |
That's more than likely because Urban Exploration is growing in Australia. I'd say that each five year interval since the Cave Clan started (1990, 1995, 2000, 2005) that at a guess between 70 and 80 percent of people who explored regularly in Australia would be somehow linked to the Cave Clan.
In 1990 there may have been 200 explorers in Australia... which would see between 40 to 60 not involved in the Clan. In 2005 there is probably two thousand explorers active to some extent in Australia which means that between 400 to 600 would not be involved in the Cave Clan.
Obviously just examples, guesses or whatever, but it's what I've noticed over the last 20 years.
Cheers,
Doug
PS. So has it reached its peak yet
Edit - Maybe those numbers are a bit high in all aspects. It's just an example - it's more the percentages that are the point/example.
[last edit 6/24/2005 3:20 AM by Doug - edited 1 times]
The Urbex Zine Guy
https://www.cavecl...wtopic.php?t=12259
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Avatar-X
 
Alpha Husky
Location: West Coast
Gender: Male
yay!
| | | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 48 on 6/24/2005 4:34 AM >
| | | | Posted by Jester
Panic, the obvious solution is to post whatever the fuck you want on your own site. What you post there is entirely up to you. Posting it anywhere else, you are invariably going to have issues.
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This is an excellent point. Our rules aren't subject to what you post on your own site.
-av
huskies - such fluff. |
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scribbledaway
| |  |  | | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 49 on 6/24/2005 12:20 PM >
| | | | Posted by Panic!
There is a small but growing number or UErs in Australia who have nothing to do with the clan. Several of them use this site. I was posting locations at the request of one of those, in a place they could access it.
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bet they could have seen it had you just TOLD them, too. save time and trouble...when someone asks you for information privately, answer them privately. what? really? oh!
but then there would have been nothing to argue about and well...we can't have that, can we.
www.visceralaxis.net
If it’s too loud, go to the other end of the Market, down the stairs, to the waterfront, drown yourself. "...I become oblivious to the obvious, just ridiculous." |
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'Dukes
Noble Donor
Gender: Male
At least someone llikes me
| | | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 50 on 6/24/2005 11:20 PM >
| | | | Damn, you guys got issues; it's a frigging drain! You can't burn it , smash it's walls, steal it's artifacts, evilly redirect water flow, use you imagination.
Short of dynamite, you can't hurt it! Who frigging cares!
The worst part about this is that the info AINT so secret; I bet every kid 10 to 18 within 20 miles of these drains knows exactly where the frigging entrance is , and
has been inside the damn thing.It is the case with local eyesore abandoned sites as well; everyone knows it's there.
What do they say "All politics is local"? In most cases "all exploring is local".
But you need a goofy club to privately track where publically owned drain pipes are? Christ go down to your local township and as for a goddamn map. It's not as if aliens built it.
Another issue involving too much self importance and living in the internet fantasy world.
My "rednecks" on the other hand are wicked elite because we've been to places that only 1000 people have been already vs the 2000 people who have visited and worked in these fucking pipes. We are hardcore with our stencils and shit!
There; I've offended both parties involved. End of story.
I got your tour winner right here pussies, at least he'd crash out trying. |
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TheDriftKing
| | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 51 on 6/25/2005 12:45 AM >
| | | | I don't really see how posting GPS information is any different than posting the address of a site or building. Sounds like these guys are just looking to turn a profit and posting it for free is going to cut into that.
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Doug
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 52 on 6/25/2005 5:33 PM >
| | | | Posted by 'Dukes
Damn, you guys got issues; it's a frigging drain!
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I think the main issues were not with the drains, but other locations that are on private property under lock and key.
Posted by 'Dukes
What do they say "All politics is local"? In most cases "all exploring is local". |
Yes indeed. Most tunnels are probably entered once a year by organsied groups and 200 times by locals.
Posted by 'Dukes
But you need a goofy club to privately track where publically owned drain pipes are? Christ go down to your local township and as for a goddamn map. It's not as if aliens built it. |
Hey come on, we took many years to make it into a goofy club... lots of work went into it... you don't just BECOME goofy overnight.
Posted by 'Dukes
Another issue involving too much self importance and living in the internet fantasy world. |
Hmmm, I think you'd find that most people in the Cave Clan don't even know about this fracas because they are out in the real world exploring.
The Cave Clan started in 1986 when Commodore 64 and Atari2600s were cool... the Internet was some far fetched thing that only nerds and geeks used that was never going to take off.
Now, where's my magic sword and shield, I'm off to fight some Dragons.
Cheers,
Doug
The Urbex Zine Guy
https://www.cavecl...wtopic.php?t=12259
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STUD69
Gender: Male
| | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 53 on 9/25/2005 4:20 PM >
| | | | A few points to mention:
1. Panic stated that the locations he posted he has actually visited and checked out himself. This is different than just getting a location list and pasting it for all to see.
2. I have two locations sheets - Melbourne and Sydney. I personally won't be telling anyone about the details of this info as I feel that it is privileged information. The fact is that the compilation is many years worth of work and effort. I respect that. However, this is my choice and my view on the matter.
3. As stated, I have location sheets for Melbourne and Sydney. However, let's say that I didn't have the Sydney location sheet, yet I holiday in Sydney annually, which I do. Since I'm only on vacation I don't have the time to search for locations. This applies to any tourist who visits another city or country. Having access to a resource of location sheets would allow me to find a location and explore it when I can.
4. Since this is an urban exploration resource site I thought it would be the appropriate place to provide details such as locations.
5. The issue of "terrorism" has been brought up again. Well why don't we all stay home then in case we get blown up
6. In economics there are valid arguments for competition and problems associated with monopolies. This applies to urban exploration. When urban exploration organisations become too large, they tend to monopolise other people rights i.e make them follow rules, sometimes wanky rules imposed by the founders. This is fair enough, but since there is a lack of other avenues for urban exploration (other UE groups and forums)some people can find this very frustrating indeed. So C'mon guys form new groups!!!
STUD69
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GreyKat
Location: Minneapolis/St Paul MN
Gender: Male
I have never been lost, but I will admit to being confused for several weeks.
| | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 54 on 9/25/2005 7:01 PM >
| | | | If they want to keep it private then I say let them keep it private. That member of the CC gained the information while in the CC if I read correctly. If there was an understanding to not share this information with others if you ever left (be it on good or bad footing) then that should be respected. Sharing the information although its a great resource to those that dont have it in my opinion is unethical.
It would pretty much show the world what type of person you are and I would think that unless that person wants to propagate that they are not to be trusted it should be avoided.
Plus GPS coordinates to things is pretty much taking the fun out of looking for it doesnt it?
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HillbillyHorus
Location: Charlottesville Virginia
Gender: Male
Im in ur government, killin ur d00dz
| | | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 55 on 9/25/2005 7:33 PM >
| | | | There's a thread somewhere here about this post on Rotteneggs about an "Urban Explorer", who was really just a little vandal breaking windows and such. One of the comments was "It's not too hard to find locations to bust. There are tons of websites that have lists of places to go".
You can't fall off a mountain. |
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eidolon
Location: Köln, Nordrhein-Westfalen
| | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 56 on 9/25/2005 8:46 PM >
| | | | Posted by GreyKat
If they want to keep it private then I say let them keep it private. That member of the CC gained the information while in the CC if I read correctly. If there was an understanding to not share this information with others if you ever left (be it on good or bad footing) then that should be respected. Sharing the information although its a great resource to those that dont have it in my opinion is unethical.
It would pretty much show the world what type of person you are and I would think that unless that person wants to propagate that they are not to be trusted it should be avoided.
Plus GPS coordinates to things is pretty much taking the fun out of looking for it doesnt it?
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If you'd read the thread you'd know that the policy of not sharing the information was only instituted some time after Panic's parting from the cave clan.
Plus you don't have to use the GPS coordinates to find the location if you don't want to. The information shouldn't be suppressed just because it doesn't mesh with the preferences of some of the population.
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parallax
Location: Sydney, Australia.
Gender: Male
Cave Clan are go!!
| |  | | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 57 on 9/26/2005 7:45 AM >
| | | | The sharing of location knowledge is a priviledge of being affiliated with the Cave Clan, not a right because you are an urban explorer. If you want our information, you earn your way into the group by proving you are; capable, mature, trustworthy and open-minded enough to embrace the unique differences and qualities of each member of our group that helps make the Cave Clan such a richly diverse and interesting group of like-minded people.
What you will find is that the non-sharing off C/C information between clanners and others was simply an implied rule amongst the group. It was not until some people who were incompatible with the majority of the group were asked to leave that we had ensure that our most powerful and dangerous resource (knowledge) would not be exploited by ex-members. Hence the establishment of Cave Clan conditions and codes of conduct that now apply to all C/C members, which is in place to protect both the current active clanners and the locations we have found and love to explore.
As Kawolski said, if you want to explore in Australia you would be an idiot not to contact us for our help. We are more than willing to facilitate your exploring in any way possible. We've done it for KAOS in the past, and are just in the process of taking Slyv around Australia during his 10 day stay here.
Go in big drains,
-parallax
[email protected]
Cave Clan Australia
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Crossfire
Location: Kay-Dub
Gender: Male
Don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years.
| | | | | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 58 on 9/26/2005 12:56 PM >
| | | | I think the simplest solution is that when someone joins up with an organised group of explorers and they plan on taking said person into locations they wish to stay secret, said person should sign an NDA. Neat, tidy and no question about whether or not they can post that information somewhere else at a later date.
C.
Disgruntled. |
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Doug
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Censorship / UE information wants to be free.
<Reply # 59 on 10/7/2005 5:44 AM >
| | | | Posted by parallax
The sharing of location knowledge is a priviledge of being affiliated with the Cave Clan, not a right because you are an urban explorer. If you want our information, you earn your way into the group by proving you are; capable, mature, trustworthy and open-minded enough to embrace the unique differences and qualities of each member of our group that helps make the Cave Clan such a richly diverse and interesting group of like-minded people.
What you will find is that the non-sharing off C/C information between clanners and others was simply an implied rule amongst the group. It was not until some people who were incompatible with the majority of the group were asked to leave that we had ensure that our most powerful and dangerous resource (knowledge) would not be exploited by ex-members. Hence the establishment of Cave Clan conditions and codes of conduct that now apply to all C/C members, which is in place to protect both the current active clanners and the locations we have found and love to explore.
As Kawolski said, if you want to explore in Australia you would be an idiot not to contact us for our help. We are more than willing to facilitate your exploring in any way possible. We've done it for KAOS in the past, and are just in the process of taking Slyv around Australia during his 10 day stay here.
Go in big drains,
-parallax
[email protected]
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It's all about trust.
If you keep getting bitten by a dog (or dogs), eventually you will take more precautions against getting bitten.
Cheers,
Doug
The Urbex Zine Guy
https://www.cavecl...wtopic.php?t=12259
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