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 Kay O. Sweaver
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Gender: Male
Happiness is saying yes more often than no.
 |  | Personal Defense of UE
< on 11/12/2004 7:29 AM >
|  | | | Someone in the Urbonaut thread made a comment that they knew UE was wrong but that they did it anyways. Now from a legal perspective this is a pretty banal statement, but from a psychological standpoint its almost untenable (Christ its late, that isn't the right word is it?). If you honestly believe as part of your core beliefs that something is wrong you won't do it, at least not willingly. So what do you really believe?
That is what I'm asking is how you legitimize UE to your own self-consciousness/ego. What do you believe gives you the right to do what you do? The alternative of course to be a self-loathing monster that can't control his or her actions.
I'll start by saying that I don't believe in the existance or sanctity of private property. Property is a sociological construct which is made abundantly clear when you look at cultural differences of opinion on the subject. The native Americans didn't really believe that they could sign away their rights to the land because they didn't believe the land wasn't theirs to sign off.
Just like an idea, a picture or a computer program becomes public domain once its released the same goes for structures and areas. While DJs argue that sound samples are free cultural property I argue the same for the spaces that law would restrict me from. There can be legitimate safety and other concerns for keeping me off of a particular piece of this planet, yet that does nothing to diminish my right to be there.
Admittedly things aren't so cut and dry. I have more right to something I've built for instance than something I picked up off the ground, but at the end of the day nothing really belongs to anyone. Things change hands in the blink of an eye and places like Jerusalem are perfect examples that many different people can lay claim to the same thing or place, sometimes peaceably, sometimes not.
So that's how I sleep at night after tresspassing on "private" property. How do you sleep at night?
==========================
Amy Smith is an infected slut |
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The Lost Flock
 
Location: Montreal, QC
Gender: Male
baaah.
| |  |  | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 1 on 11/12/2004 7:43 AM >
| | | | This is in fact a very tough question. So many people rationalize it so many ways that I think this should come out with a lot of very interesting answers.
One thing before I post my own reasons, a plea to all who read and respond in this thread:
Please, Please do not in any way attempt to refute someone's rationalizations or justifications. Every person's reasons are different and I feel it's important everyone respects them. Otherwise this thread is gonna suck Super fast.
Okay, now, for myself. I am fully aware that trespassing is thoroughly illegal and I make no pretenses that I am not commiting a crime somehow. Clearly, we're all criminals. I just don't think that matters for anything. My morals are my own and no other person's morals will impinge upon them, be they policeman, friend or peer.
I love to explore, and I love to do things I get to do as an Urban Explorer, and if someone tells me I can't do what I love. I'm afraid I have to tell them they're wrong.
And that's all I've got to say about that.
-Flock
The Lost Flock is finding it's way.
Scaffolding is like monkey bars for adults. |
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Skaught
Location: Calgary
Gender: Male
| |  | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 2 on 11/12/2004 7:58 AM >
| | | | Exploring to me is not about the fact I am not supposed to be there. It is about he place itself.
My favorite uaw, mines, does not require me to really break any laws.
Even much of the active and other uaw does not require me to break any laws.
For the rare situations I have to commit Trespass I measure it by the same standard I measure all my actions.
Am I doing something that will negatively impact another human being?
By that measure, going into someone's house would not be something I would do. It could take away their sense of safety and security in their home thus impacting them negatively. And besides, I think houses are boring, I have lived in many.
Now sneaking onto the roof of a office tower and taking some pictures and leaving without leaving a trace, has no negative impact on any persons. In an extreme case it may have the potential to impact a corporate entity but it is unlikely and even if so, it's impact to any individual would not be felt.
(apparently I do not know how to spell UE, the spell check was nice enough to fix it for me tho. Apparently it is spelt uaw. Guess I am just stupid.)
If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) |
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Servo
| | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 3 on 11/12/2004 8:04 AM >
| | | | I realize that often, what I do involves illegality. I guess how I justify it is... generally, the places I visit are so abandoned that I'm certainly not infringing on anyone's privacy rights, nor do I run much risk of damaging their property. Furthermore, I set a rule for myself that I will never willfully damage property, nor take anything of value, and I will always endeavor to leave the place as I found it.
To me, trespassing laws are there for one of two reasons: to protect people's privacy rights, and because the powers that be are afraid of what someone *might* do if they were someplace they weren't supposed to be (this includes theft, as well as getting hurt and suing the property owner). Since, again, I visit places that are quite abandoned, and I also demonstrate personal liability (I would never sue if I was injured, realizing it was my own damn fault), I am able to morally justify a minor violation of the law.
Wrong or right, that's how I see it.
As Flock says, this should not be a thread for arguing so much as discussing your personal justifications -- if I see someone telling someone else that their justification is flat out stupid and wrong, I'm gonna take action to keep this thread above water.
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Shatter
Location: K/W Downtown
Gender: Male
'I can get in there, i just need a coke, some chewing gum and a stick of tnt...'
| | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 4 on 11/12/2004 10:39 AM >
|  | | | interestingly enough i find myself agreeing in large part to what everyone has said so far.
i also do not view property (land) as something that one can claim as your own. i also find that my political beliefs also lend a legalizing affect if you will on my actions, in that most of the abandoned factories i explore while technically private, belong to the people of the community and the same can be said for public utilities like storm drains.
Personally i follow my own moral code: do what ever the hell i want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.
pretty simple anarchist thought when you think about it.
i'm curious to know just how many people here do agree with the anarchist ideal of self governance...
Shatter.
"So is it just me, or does the current situation in the United States seem like a bad 'B' movie?" |
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NoSuchPerson
 
Stop, or I'll ask you again!
| | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 5 on 11/12/2004 11:13 AM >
| | | | Well, I agree completly that UE is illegal if you trespass or what not. Take a comparison of people who do drugs to Urban Explorers. It's not the best comparisson, but it should get the point across. People that do drugs do it for several reasons. Some do it because they like their "fix". Some do it because they are addicted. Some out of boredom, simply because there's nothing else to do. Some do it because they like the thrill of doing something illegal, and some do it because their friends are doing it. There's any number of reasons, and everybody has a different one. Same thing for Urban Explorers. We all have our own reasons for what we do, and nobody has the right to tell you you're wrong for being you.
Personally speaking, I explore because I have an insatiable curiosity about how things work. I'm extremly curious by nature, and I feel more at ease with myself and my surroundings if I know as much as I can about how things work, interact, etc... Exploring helps me satisfy some of those curiosities. Take for example, exploring a steam tunnel network. I find it facinating to see how all the HVAC, electrical, telecom, data, etc... networks all come together to bring the public what it wants to see/feel.
I also take great interest in seeing how things were. That is, I like taking a look back in the past. Imagine standing in the middle of the Malt Plant, or R.L.Hearn or the Brickworks, or any number of abandoned buildings. R. L. Hearn is absolutely silent at night. The only noises you hear are the odd footsteps of wildlife running through something. I think it's an awesome feeling to know that all that silence you're hearing (or not hearing, depending) was drowned out by some of the loudest machinery you could possibly imagine in the past. Think of it as a poor-man's time machine into the past.
Generally speaking, I explore to satisfy the age-old curiosity of that question "Gee, what's in there...let's go take a look" (Yes, I'm well aware of where I stole that line from...), and to feel connected with the society I'm part of. All too often people feel disconnected with their surroundings. I find it amusing that so many people feel the need to take off to their cottages up north in the summer just to escape life for awhile and feel "at peace" with the world. I say find peace within your own surroundings. You could spend years, even a lifetime, in your native surroundings and still not see everything or experience everything, so why would you want to go to a completly remote part of the world only to hope to "let go" of your urban life...I just don't get it. I'm perfectly content wandering the city's downtown core on some friday afternoon, taking in all the sights and sounds. That to me is more relaxing than a weekend at a cottage could ever hope to be.
So I've rambled on enough...I too am very curious what everyone else has to say about this.
-Ex
Unit calling radio say again? |
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MatC
Nobler Donor
Location: ENY
Gender: Male
Accepted everywhere
| | | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 6 on 11/12/2004 1:27 PM >
| | | | I think it will be necessary to make a distinction very early on between UE being "illegal" and its being "wrong." Some may think that's splitting hairs, but I think it's an important difference of which to be aware.
I think everyone is perfectly aware that trespassing is illegal, because there are laws against it and you can be arrested for doing it. However, as most people have said, I think it's possible to justify it to yourself as long as, "nobody gets hurt," or "I don't break/steal/damage anything," or whatnot. I'll mention up front that I personally feel a lot better about UE'ing someplace if I don't see "No Trespassing" signs. Is this because it makes me feel like what I am doing is less wrong, or because it gives me a little more legal grounds to tell anyone who comes to stop me, "but there were no signs"? I don't know. Probably a little of both.
Basically, I think that Servo's right -- mostly, the laws are put there to protect other people from what *I* might do, and as long as I have no intention of doing those things, then I have little/no moral problem with doing it, and any problem that I do have is outweight by things such as the fun I have exploring, the pictures I take, and the non-everyday experience I get to have that perhaps 99% of the population won't bother to try.
-- Mat
"We shall not cease from exploration / And the end of all our exploring / Will be to arrive where we started / And know the place for the first time."
- T.S. Eliot, excerpt from "Little Gidding" |
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Asylunt
Location: MPLS
Gender: Male
The Friendly Beer!
| | | | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 7 on 11/12/2004 3:29 PM >
| | | | Breaking man made laws, cause I only follow those that are divine!
And I don't believe in a governing god.
Asylunt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." Mark Twain |
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Nosferatu Von
Location: Ancaster
Gender: Male
| | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 8 on 11/12/2004 3:37 PM >
| | | | Posted by MatC
I think it will be necessary to make a distinction very early on between UE being "illegal" and its being "wrong." Some may think that's splitting hairs, but I think it's an important difference of which to be aware.
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Here here! Well said.
Posed by Asylunt
Breaking man made laws, cause I only follow those that are divine!
And I don't believe in a governing god.
[/i] |
North American base law is taken from the King James III version of the bible... and I've been told the 'coveting thy neighbour's wife' also applies to his property / home / possessions.
Seems your Phenomena is a Phenoma-NOT. |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 9 on 11/12/2004 3:56 PM >
|  | | | I base what I will and what I will not do on my own code of ethics. Jaywalking is illegal, but I don't think it's wrong. Trespassing to sightsee is illegal but I don't see it as wrong when it's not harming anyone.
Stealing from a site though, is against the law, but more importantly, it is wrong, so I won't do it. Same goes for damaging a site in any way.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Frost
Location: K.Dot
Gender: Male
No beer makes Frosty go..something something..(Taz: Crrazzy?)..Dont mind if I doo!
| | | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 10 on 11/12/2004 5:11 PM >
| | | | I'd have to agree with Asylunt on this one...
I don't follow man-made law, I follow that of my own personal ethics and beliefs. Nature's law, since the roots of my beliefs are a part of that.
Man-made law is only there, as it's been said, to "protect" the people.... although it's more a safety net if you ask me, like a placebo...
Why is marijuana not legal? Why is marijuana not legal? Its a natural plant that grows in the dirt. You know what's not natural, 80 year old dudes with hardons. Thats not natural, but we got pills for that. We're dedicating all our resources to keeping the old guys erect but we're puttin people in jail for smoking something that grows in the dirt. |
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The Hitman's Daughter
Account Closed
Location: ottawa, canada
Gender: Female
hot pavement.
| | | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 11 on 11/12/2004 5:44 PM >
| | | | i do what i want without hurting anybody. that's how i sleep at night.
richellesart.com
From now on and until the end of time, "Hip To Be Square" will conjure images of bloody bodies being hacked apart with axes.
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edea
Location: Ames Department Store
politically correct
| | | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 12 on 11/12/2004 6:14 PM >
| | | | What I find funny is that people are wary of the illegal nature of UE when the law itself was NOT created to uphold a universal, moral standard.
Trespassing, whether or not it is involved with UE, has many connotations from a physical standpoint. When you are on someone's properly without explicit permission, whatever that happens to you becomes a liability for the owner. Look at the reasoning behind sealing off old abandoned buildings:
1) To prevent the looters, taggers, assholes who come in and maliciously destroy property which is deemed "ownerless" by the intruder.
2) To cover the ass of the owner. If people we allowed to waltz into a building without safety precautions or law, and they happened to fall and break their leg, the owner would then be liable for the injury happening on the property. So putting up a "No trespassing" sign effectually washes the owners' hands clean of whatever stupidity occurs on the property after it is abandoned.
My point? You can't assign moral significance to a regulation meant only to protect land owners. For some on to claim "There is a law against it, thus it is immoral in my eyes" shows how they forget there are hundreds of laws, many unknown by the majority of society, that go against standard morality (Cut-throat economics and Dubya's Environment Regulation, anyone?)
So, the people that refuse to accept the Trespassing law as the guiding force behind their personal morals are very much in keeping with the typical UE'r: those who think outside a normal societal ethic, who don't like authority, who refuse to be sheep.
[last edit 11/12/2004 6:15 PM by edea - edited 1 times]
It's all relative to the size of your steeple. |
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Kay O. Sweaver
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Gender: Male
Happiness is saying yes more often than no.
| | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 13 on 11/13/2004 12:02 AM >
| | | | Its interesting this discussion of the law almost immediately came into the discussion, as well as reasons for engaging in UE, neither of which were part of my initial queary. Violating someone's property or space is widely considered an offense not only legally but morally. How do you deal with it internally on a moral level? I'm not asking why you UE or what you think of trespassing laws.
==========================
Amy Smith is an infected slut |
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Control
Location: NYC, All day every day.
Because it's expected
| | | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 14 on 11/13/2004 12:27 AM >
| | | | Posted by K.A.O.S.
Its interesting this discussion of the law almost immediately came into the discussion, as well as reasons for engaging in UE, neither of which were part of my initial queary. Violating someone's property or space is widely considered an offense not only legally but morally. How do you deal with it internally on a moral level? I'm not asking why you UE or what you think of trespassing laws.
|
I think the question is too broad (or perhaps that's just me). For many forms of UE it simply doesn't apply. Abandoned warehouses and public owned spaces, such as say, subway tunnels and bridges, involve no invasion of anyone's space. I've always thought of abandoned buildings as not belonging to any person who's space would be violated, and say, subway tunnels, as spaces that my tax dollars help maintain, thus I'll feel free to look at them closer and feel no guilt.
If i were poking around someone's active house, perhaps then I'd feel like I'm invading someone else's space.
[last edit 11/13/2004 12:31 AM by Control - edited 1 times]
The Zoo York Goon Squad.
If it looks good, Loot it. |
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Shatter
Location: K/W Downtown
Gender: Male
'I can get in there, i just need a coke, some chewing gum and a stick of tnt...'
| | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 15 on 11/13/2004 12:41 AM >
| | | | personally when it comes to exploring a place that someone 'owns' i don;t think about it. i just do it because i do not see it as wrong.
there is no moral question for me...
shatter.
"So is it just me, or does the current situation in the United States seem like a bad 'B' movie?" |
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Frost
Location: K.Dot
Gender: Male
No beer makes Frosty go..something something..(Taz: Crrazzy?)..Dont mind if I doo!
| | | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 16 on 11/13/2004 1:00 AM >
| | | | Posted by Shatterforce
personally when it comes to exploring a place that someone 'owns' i don;t think about it. i just do it because i do not see it as wrong.
there is no moral question for me...
shatter.
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That's what I was trying to say....
So Ditto 
Why is marijuana not legal? Why is marijuana not legal? Its a natural plant that grows in the dirt. You know what's not natural, 80 year old dudes with hardons. Thats not natural, but we got pills for that. We're dedicating all our resources to keeping the old guys erect but we're puttin people in jail for smoking something that grows in the dirt. |
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Ibby
Location: Victoria
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 17 on 11/13/2004 1:20 AM >
| | | | Posted by Shatterforce
personally when it comes to exploring a place that someone 'owns' i don;t think about it. i just do it because i do not see it as wrong.
there is no moral question for me...
shatter.
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Just curious, and this is in no way meant to be inflammatory or judgemental, but what would your defence be if you were caught/charged/went to court for trespassing in some area?
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The Hitman's Daughter
Account Closed
Location: ottawa, canada
Gender: Female
hot pavement.
| | | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 18 on 11/13/2004 1:26 AM >
| | | | Posted by Ibby
Just curious, and this is in no way meant to be inflammatory or judgemental, but what would your defence be if you were caught/charged/went to court for trespassing in some area?
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i know you weren't asking me, but i'm going to answer this
for me, there would be no defence. I would take full responsibility for my actions and whatever punishment came with it. I believe most people here would do the same.
richellesart.com
From now on and until the end of time, "Hip To Be Square" will conjure images of bloody bodies being hacked apart with axes.
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Frost
Location: K.Dot
Gender: Male
No beer makes Frosty go..something something..(Taz: Crrazzy?)..Dont mind if I doo!
| | | Re: Personal Defense of UE
<Reply # 19 on 11/13/2004 1:47 AM >
| | | | Posted by The Hitman's Daughter
i know you weren't asking me, but i'm going to answer this
for me, there would be no defence. I would take full responsibility for my actions and whatever punishment came with it. I believe most people here would do the same.
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Ditto to that, and I do believe Shatterforce feels the same way, although I won't totally speak for him, but we do explore together, so ... we pretty much have an understanding that if we're caught, we're caught! Whatever...
Why is marijuana not legal? Why is marijuana not legal? Its a natural plant that grows in the dirt. You know what's not natural, 80 year old dudes with hardons. Thats not natural, but we got pills for that. We're dedicating all our resources to keeping the old guys erect but we're puttin people in jail for smoking something that grows in the dirt. |
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