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1 2 3   UER Forum > Archived UE Main > Personal Defense of UE (Viewed 1215 times) The Lost Flock  Location: Montreal, QC Gender: Male baaah.  |  |  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 20 on 11/13/2004 1:51 AM >   I believe the same idea expressed here about abandonments work just as well in many actives sites. Factories, hotels, corporate buildings. All of these are owned by companies, and not individuals. So it's easy not to think of it as invading someone's space, since the isn't owned by any one person at all. And I agree with THD. If I were caught, I'm caught. I'll take what comes of it, because I am in full knowledge of the illegality of what I do. It just doesn't bother me, and I accept responsibility for my actions. -Flock The Lost Flock is finding it's way. Scaffolding is like monkey bars for adults. Ibby  Location: Victoria Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 21 on 11/13/2004 8:47 AM >   Interesting (and excellent) replies. Thanks! Shatter  Location: K/W Downtown Gender: Male 'I can get in there, i just need a coke, some chewing gum and a stick of tnt...'  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 22 on 11/13/2004 8:58 AM >   hmmm... i'm wondering if frost is putting words in my mouth or if he knows me all too well... i guess i have a little of that 'teenage immortality' still left in me, cause i seriously do not ever consider getting caught as a reasonable threat. and if i do get caught i figure i can talk my way out of a ticket or any sticky situation. but yeah, i guess if given a situation with no outs, then i suppose i would grin and bear it. a small price to pay for my lifestyle. shatter. "So is it just me, or does the current situation in the United States seem like a bad 'B' movie?" btween/chas  Location: north attleboro Gender: Male "think the alarms still got power?" riiiiiiip. RINGGGGGGG. "ah crap. run?&q  |  |  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 23 on 11/13/2004 3:35 PM >   Posted by The Hitman's Daughter i do what i want without hurting anybody. that's how i sleep at night. damn right. if it makes ya happy and no one gets effected but you i see only positive outcomes. "chas if you can eat asbestos why are you afraid of gettin cancer from cigarettes?" www.fallout-ue.com Asylunt  Location: MPLS Gender: Male The Friendly Beer!  |  |  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 24 on 11/14/2004 12:13 AM >   When I said earlier that I only follow divine laws, I in no way was saying that divinity could be implied to literally mean any one religious god. It was more like saying that I only follow the moral laws deep wired in me. The ones that got there from nurture and observation of the world, not because of strict enforcement or instruction. I guess what I'm trying to get at, is that if I don't feel the action is wrong, then to me it isn't. Having a sense of ethics and morals reenforces my decisions, but I simply don't ever do anything because someone else said that was the way it had to be done. As for dealing with myself for trespassing, I don't think about it really. Most of the time I think we get into the places that we do because we don't see the imaginary lines established by someone else. If I ever did enter an area where I started to question if it was morally wrong or right to be there, then I'd probably leave. But as someone has already said, I don't really go to too many places where you could consider it an invasion of someone's personal space. But yeah, I don't consider the Bible divine word. Asylunt "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." Mark Twain xenia  Gender: Female  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 25 on 11/14/2004 7:46 PM >   When I first started out UEing, I did not realise that was what I was doing - I was simply looking for places where I could be alone to think (I had some serious stuff to sort out!). People were driving me crazy, and I just had to find isolated spots - so my explorations of abandoned spots and isolated places began. I never thought I was doing anything wrong (perhaps because of the particular places I found to hang out in - none of them had 'no trespassing' signs). Since finding out that what I was doing was UEing, I have given the whole matter a lot more thought. I agree with the ideas expressed so well by K.A.O.S and Shatterforce - the whole concept of private property is specific to particular societies, and it is not a concept I agree with politically. On the other hand, I would never violate individuals' private spaces (I do believe individuals, as opposed to corporations etc, have a right to personal private spaces that should not be violated). I also believe that the urban environment is modern society's public space (of course, I am not referring to private residences or small businesses here) and that the community should have access to these spaces, especially if they are built with tax dollars. No matter what anyone says, I truly believe that there is nothing wrong with being in a space that belongs to my community, so I have no problems sleeping on that score. One idea that does give me sleepless nights is the way more and more public spaces are being denied to community members - the hounding of skateboarders is one excellent example of this. This makes me all the more determined to explore such places. "After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with color, bountiful with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn’t it a noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in it?" Richard Dawkins Duke  Noble Donor Location: Awww-shitby, Ontario Gender: Male Move it or lose it  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 26 on 11/15/2004 2:54 PM >   I don't remember who said it, and please take credit for this statement if it was you, but someone on here said "It's like wreck diving, just without the water." Since reading that I've pretty much adopted the same philosophy when trying to explain/justify UE to other people. I have no problem "trespassing" on property that has become derelict and neglected by the owner. clearly we respect these sites more than most of the owners who let them fall into disarray and then claim that WE'RE the menace to their property. Contrary to popular belief, death isn't just for dead people. I know I was surprised too! It can happen to anybody! Horses, fiddler crabs, even a potato can die! - Tick MothMan  Noble Donor Location: The Gem City Gender: Male If you didn't bring back any pictures with you then you obviously weren't there!  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 27 on 11/16/2004 6:57 AM >   Posted by K.A.O.S. So what do you really believe? That is what I'm asking is how you legitimize UE to your own self-consciousness/ego. What do you believe gives you the right to do what you do? Nothing. And no one. I don't have a right to trespass onto your property, K.A.O.S., whether you recognize it as yours or not. And nobody gives me the right. But I'll still do it. All day long. My conscience and I don't have a problem with that. I won't ask anyone's permission to infiltrate their office space, I'll just do it. Especially when they're there. I won't feel bad tracking through the old empty factory -- that somebody owns -- because it's what I want to do. And I'm going to do it. I don't have the "right" to do it, but I'll continue nonetheless. Archivist  Location: Long Island, NY Gender: Male  |  |  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 28 on 11/16/2004 3:43 PM >   For those who explore the abandoned state hospitals there is another way to look at it. The tax payers (you and me) paid for these places to be built, and it wasn't cheap. Now they can't find any creative use for most of them so they are sitting there. Let's see my ancestors paid for something that is being left to rot, sounds like we have every right to explore them to me. While this is certainly not a legal defense it is definitely a moral one and I think that’s what the thread is about. The Hitman's Daughter  Account Closed Location: ottawa, canada Gender: Female hot pavement.  |  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 29 on 11/16/2004 3:44 PM >   Posted by Duke I don't remember who said it, and please take credit for this statement if it was you, but someone on here said "It's like wreck diving, just without the water." Since reading that I've pretty much adopted the same philosophy when trying to explain/justify UE to other people. I have no problem "trespassing" on property that has become derelict and neglected by the owner. clearly we respect these sites more than most of the owners who let them fall into disarray and then claim that WE'RE the menace to their property. yeah someone said that on another thread here in main... comparing wreck diving to UE because divers have taken everything valuable from wrecks and there's nothing left to see. richellesart.com From now on and until the end of time, "Hip To Be Square" will conjure images of bloody bodies being hacked apart with axes. nd31   |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 30 on 11/16/2004 11:50 PM >   Posted by The Hitman's Daughter yeah someone said that on another thread here in main... comparing wreck diving to UE because divers have taken everything valuable from wrecks and there's nothing left to see. Not always. Depends on the diver, just the same with the UEr. It's all a matter of individuals. oCtAnE  Location: TORONTO, CANADA Gender: Male EXPLORER AT LARGE  |  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 31 on 11/20/2004 1:20 PM >   I trepass for UE because it doesn't affect anyone else, and there's really no harm seeing as how most places I go are abandoned and owned by no one. I could see it being wrong if I damaged the place or something like that, but I won't do that. I will not steal anything from a site, with the only one exception being some 1930's era financial reports that I will donate to a museum or historical society someday. I can live with trespassing, but I won't break and enter. I don't have much of an ethical complex, but I will weigh what is right and wrong. -Octane FUELED BY OCTANE. Duke  Noble Donor Location: Awww-shitby, Ontario Gender: Male Move it or lose it  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 32 on 11/29/2004 2:23 PM >   Well sure there are scavengers out there but most wreck divers do it for the same reason we do, to see a dead part of history and the scars of time's ravages upon it's face Contrary to popular belief, death isn't just for dead people. I know I was surprised too! It can happen to anybody! Horses, fiddler crabs, even a potato can die! - Tick White Rabbit  Women's Advocate Location: Missouri Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 33 on 11/29/2004 9:55 PM >   Posted by K.A.O.S. If you honestly believe as part of your core beliefs that something is wrong you won't do it, at least not willingly. So what do you really believe? I don't agree with you on that. I think you can fully believe something is wrong and still willingly do it. A really simple way of explaining why someone would do something they believed is wrong is because, to them, the benefit of the wrong action outweighs any guilt they might feel over. And that's how I'm able to believe trespassing is morally wrong 100% of the time and still keep on doing it. The benefit, seeing lots of cool stuff no one else gets to see, far outweighs the tiny little amount of guilt I might ever feel over trespassing. And I don't buy into the whole moral relativity thing. I think there are absolutely degrees of wrongness. Trespassing, although I believe it's wrong, is just a minor thing, at least on my "scale of wrong deeds." So, I really don't feel any guilt over it. Also, I don't think trespassing is wrong because it's illegal. In fact, I think legality has nothing to do with whether or not something is morally right. The bottom line is I'm entering someone else's property without their permission. That's their property to allow or disallow people entry as they see fit, and to go against their wishes IS wrong in my book. If someone entered my property without my permission, I'd definitely think they were doing something wrong, whether they intended to harm anything or not. And I have a feeling most of the people here, who say they don't believe trespassing is wrong, would think it was wrong if the roles were reversed. [last edit 11/29/2004 10:05 PM by White Rabbit - edited 1 times] Underground Ozarks http://www.undergroundozarks.com Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Kansas Kay O. Sweaver  Location: Montreal, Quebec Gender: Male Happiness is saying yes more often than no.  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 34 on 11/29/2004 11:55 PM >   I really can't believe that you can do something if you believe its wrong as part of your core values. I'm not talking about Sunday school here, I'm talking about the deepest level of your psyche. From your description you don't believe its wrong for you to tresspass provided you don't impact on anyone else but that you would feel threatened if you discovered that someone had tresspassed on your property. The issue then becomes one of knowledge of the act and not the act itself. Maybe I'm misreading you, but this is the sort of deep analysis I'm interested in by starting this thread. ========================== Amy Smith is an infected slut White Rabbit  Women's Advocate Location: Missouri Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 35 on 11/30/2004 1:43 AM >   Posted by K.A.O.S. I really can't believe that you can do something if you believe its wrong as part of your core values. And I still think your whole premise about, "If it's a core value, you wouldn't do it," is incorrect. I don't know why you think doing something and thinking it's morally right are mutually exclusive. Lots of guys believe cheating on their wives is morally wrong--they know it in their hearts--but they still cheat. I don't know. It just seems like you're arguing semantics with this whole "core values" thing. If you think something is wrong, you think it's wrong. It really is that simple. From your description you don't believe its wrong for you to tresspass provided you don't impact on anyone else but that you would feel threatened if you discovered that someone had tresspassed on your property. The issue then becomes one of knowledge of the act and not the act itself. Um, no... I said I think it's wrong. I'm not just pulling that out of my rear end. I really believe it's wrong to trespass, whether you get caught or not, whether anyone ever knows you were there or not. It's not your property, you didn't ask, it wasn't your right--that all makes it wrong in my book. Underground Ozarks http://www.undergroundozarks.com Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Kansas TurboZutek  King Dick Location: Scotland Gender: Male Giant octo-penised rapephant  |  |  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 36 on 11/30/2004 1:55 AM >   Here it is totally legal, and I have no morals to insult. So... No I'm set thanks. Chris... We all had ostriches. My dad had an ostrich farm! I remember one day someone came in and said the high altitude bombing of Kosovo had been a limited success, so we all went out and celebrated… by killing an ostrich and boiling it in kiwi fruit. Decoy  Location: Leslieville Gender: Male Oh I have slipped the bonds of earth...  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 37 on 11/30/2004 3:49 AM >   Posted by The Hitman's Daughter i know you weren't asking me, but i'm going to answer this for me, there would be no defence. I would take full responsibility for my actions and whatever punishment came with it. I believe most people here would do the same. But that wouldn't stop anyone from running and BSing with guards and generally "social engineering" at least, not me it wouldn't. But yeah, when you're caught, bagged and tagged. There's kind of an honour in saying you were wrong... if you believe that. I dunno, I have a hard time with this. I'm a christian, so I worry about what God thinks of me doing this. Now, I've gone back to the bible a few times, and consulted my catechism (Luther's guidelines taken from the good book) and I haven't really found a good answer about wether it's right or not for me to do this. My indecision lies in my belief that government leaders and those in position of authority (lawmakers) have reasons for the laws they set in place. But there's a certain amount of reason one must utilize. Many Nazi's abandoned their leader when ordered to uethenize those of the Jewish faith, but wasn't he put in power by God? Well, I'm not saying that No Trespassing laws are equivocal to an order to kill another human being for no reason... but it's an example that shows that not all times are laws and orders just. Trespassing does not specifically break any of the 10 Commandments (no, "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us" has nothing to do with people going where they're not supposed to be, although I thought it did when I was little.) and as with most of the modern evolution of law, has more to do with the protection of a persons legal liability, than your safety. Our laws have become so particular, that they often miss what they're trying to work towards. I don't believe that Urban Exploration in itself is sinful, so that's how I justify it to myself. Hey, Jesus healed the friend of some guys that were roofing, right? How wrong can it be? Those are my two cents for anyone out there who shares my faith. Please don't berate me for it though. That's not on. It's a drag, it's a bore, it's really such a pitty To be lookin' at the board, not lookin' at the city. White Rabbit  Women's Advocate Location: Missouri Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 38 on 11/30/2004 4:02 AM >   Posted by Decoy Those are my two cents for anyone out there who shares my faith. Please don't berate me for it though. That's not on. Well, the Bible has an answer for that one. Jesus and his disciples were once required to pay a tax during their travels. When the disciples questioned Jesus on having to pay it, he gave them that famous line about rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's. That doesn't just apply to taxes, you know? It means you do what God wants you to do, and you do what your government says you're supposed to do. Unless, of course, the two come in conflict. In which case, your obedience to God supersedes your obedience to Caesar (the government). We know this because Jesus was himself forced to choose between obeying the government and doing what God wanted him to do, and he chose to do what God wanted at the cost of his own life. Anyway, there you go. And by the way, my posting that doesn't necessarily mean I believe in any of that stuff. I just happen to know a whooooooooooole lot of crap about the Bible [last edit 11/30/2004 4:05 AM by White Rabbit - edited 2 times] Underground Ozarks http://www.undergroundozarks.com Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Kansas Decoy  Location: Leslieville Gender: Male Oh I have slipped the bonds of earth...  |  Re: Personal Defense of UE <Reply # 39 on 11/30/2004 5:25 AM >   Heh. I'm reading this while listening to steppenwolf "born to be wild" just kinda funny the way they play off of one another. "Render unto caeser what is caeser's and to god what is gods.... fire all of your guns at once and explode into space!" I think that's somewhere near the back. Amd you've got a point there White Rabbit. But I think that the road tax during their travels was a different lesson. I'm pretty sure that the "rendering" lesson had to do with tithes and that it took place in a city.... and that the point is that caeser's face was on the coins, so you render your taxes and tax money to ceaser, but everything is under gods domain. It's caeser's coin, but it's god's coin first kinda thing.... maybe I'm wrong. I'll look it up before I hit the sack. Anyways, yeah. Basically, I do what my Government wants me to do, and I do what God wants me to do. I'm not going to make a case for "no trespassing" to be a crime against humanity, but I think that in denying our eyes entrance to some of these places, our life on earth is cheapened. I'm not breaking any commandments by doing it, and I'm contributing to something that I feel is really good here. It's a drag, it's a bore, it's really such a pitty To be lookin' at the board, not lookin' at the city. 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