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 wopke
 
Gender: Male
 |  | rappeling abseiling
< on 1/8/2010 3:37 PM >
|  | | | I've been a climber for many years now, but since we do not have many rock formations close by I've almost always been climbing indoors.
I've always wanted to learn how to rappel. I've done so a few times, but always in such conditions that any kid older then 10 could do it. No challenge at all.
I will start taking some courses in the near future. But I've got a few extra questions to give me a small headstart, plus, to some questions those rock climbing guys might not know the answer, because I want to use my rappeling skills when I go exploring.
- is a complete harness necessary? I've got the regular harness with no chest piece.
- is there a great difference between rappeling from, for example, a crane or building then from rocks? It does not seem like it, but maybe building structures need some extra attention.
- Does rappeling from buildings demand other harnesses then the rock climbing ones?
- Ascending: a waist ascender? foot ascender? prusik for the hands or the petzl tool?
- Untill now I've always been instructed to use a figure of 8 to rappel.. any other tools that might be better? A grigri is too static I've learned.
- When rappeling, without ascending, a lifeline still is needed?
many thanks guys!
I tried being reasonable, I didnt like it. - Clint Eastwood |
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junkyard
 
Location: LaCrosse, WI
Gender: Male
Strategic Beer Command where the metal hits the meat.
| |  | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 1 on 1/8/2010 3:59 PM >
| | | | A regular harness is all that is needed. I like my figure 8 if I want to throw beer cans down and race them to the bottom all SWAT team style, but you also burn up the rope that way. You cant go wrong with an ATC. SBG makes one that I like to give to the FNG's. It has provisions for 4 different friction settings and is like $20, all aluminum too, no stupid wire. I would recomend the Blue Water Assault Line. It's 11.6mm and is tougher and stronger than the normal 11.6 they make. For 7-8 years it's served me well, and is still in good shape. It'll give you added protection in our kind of environment with rusty metal, and crappy block and concrete corners. You should still do your best to pad those areas, but it just doesn't always work out. I use a mini traxion and the ascension, both by Petzel for ascending and can still beat anyone up the 60 ft of Cobbs Cave even after a 12 pack. As far as anchors, many times in industrial areas, it's easy to find plenty of them, but you may want a few long pieces of webbing. Sometimes you have to go a ways to get to the good stuff, and sometimes it's down the hall and around the corner. I have probably 8 20 and 30 ft ones and 1 50 footer, plus the smaller stuff. Stuff's cheap. But sometimes you can't find shit, or wish you hadn't. Luckily there seems to be no shortage of concrete in these sites and if you have a cheap hammer drill sometimes you can sink a pair depending on the tensile strength of concrete used. Sometimes you need more batteries. Sometimes you need a monster 36V Li-ion. But I wouldn't know. And I will say a Gri-Gri is pretty binary on a fat rope. But it can be used for ascending also, which is a plus. Unless you have that fat rope and work in St. Peter sandstone. Good luck.
I drink gasoline for breakfeast and beer for dinner!
Any problem can be licked with a case of beer and a few sticks of dynamite.
Strategic Beer Command ruling the desert since 1995 http://www.strategic-beer-command.com |
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Bryan
    
Location: hello
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 2 on 1/8/2010 4:07 PM >
| | | | | is a complete harness necessary? I've got the regular harness with no chest piece. |
No. Many rappellers I know (myself included) get by with just a waist harness. Mind you, when you choose your ascension system, use of a Croll may warrant the purchase of a chest harness, as it makes ascension not only safer, but mildly easier.
| is there a great difference between rappeling from, for example, a crane or building then from rocks? It does not seem like it, but maybe building |
Not particularly. The challenge comes in taking the knowledge of anchor systems that you learned in rock climbing and transitioning to an urban environment. Luckily, many of the situations you find yourself in will provide adequate anchor positions, but remember to use as many as you can. It doesn't need to be said how important redundancy is.
See first answer.
| Ascending: a waist ascender? foot ascender? prusik for the hands or the petzl tool? |
There are literally dozens of different systems out there, and it's entirely preference, and availability. Personally, I use a sit-stand system. Two ascenders: one adjustable sling connected to my waist, and the other has an adjustable footloop. You slide up the waist ascender, sit, slide up the foot ascender, stand. It's not overly efficient (in comparison to other systems), but I was limited as to what I could purchase at the time.
I know a few explorers on here utilize the frog system, which uses a Croll with a chest harness, and a single hand ascender. I've seen it in action, and it appears much more effortless than my system, but I'm sure they'll fill you in on it.
| Untill now I've always been instructed to use a figure of 8 to rappel.. any other tools that might be better? A grigri is too static I've learned. |
Again, you have a few options. Figure 8s are good, but many people opt for an ATC (what I use) or Gri-Gri style. It's personal preference, however, if you go for a Figure 8, be sure to get one with arms.. it's possible that they'll girth hitch on you. If you have the cash, make an investment for a Petzl STOP. It's a great descender, and allows you to have a controlled descent with the ability to stop. This is useful if you want to take photos on the way down, or are inexperienced.
I opted for an ATC-XP because of budget constraints, and because it holds more friction than a Figure 8, the problem being, it does a toll on the carabiners. It does, however, let you do pull downs. If you want to be elite super expl0rer, you can setup a pull through system. When you get to bottom, just pull the rope down, and profit.
Be sure to know your descender before you take it into action. In addition, practice, practice, practice changeovers. You'll never know when something goes wrong, and if you're caught in a tough spot without the knowledge to get back up, then you're fucked.
| When rappeling, without ascending, a lifeline still is needed? |
People generally have different viewpoints on this, but I'm going to say no. If you're properly anchored, you should be able to put faith in your rope, which, if properly kept, has a breaking strength 35kN (11mm static line). Another factor is that you have to carry this to wherever you're going. 60m of 11mm rope weighs about 10lbs, not including carabiners, ascending/descending gear, webbing, and everything else. It gets heavy. If you're planning to go off of a crane, you're going to haul 20lbs of gear (not including camera) up the stairs.
But yeah, as long as you properly anchor, back it up a few times, equalize it, whatever, you'll be fine.
[last edit 1/8/2010 4:10 PM by Bryan - edited 1 times]
drive well sleep carefully
http://www.exboration.com/ |
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RollingBlackout
Location: Arizona
Gender: Male
| | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 3 on 1/8/2010 4:16 PM >
| | | | I will give you my own input, with advice to you to listen to what everyone has to say (since opinions vary) and make the best decision from there.
-All I've used or ever seen used in all forms of rappelling are typical climbing harnesses utilizing the legs and waist.
-Each has their own considerations. Either way you're going to check, double-check, and recheck the sturdiness and rigidity of your anchor point. With structures you need to think of such things as rust/corrosion, material type and workload, weak binding points such as welds or nuts and bolts, etc. This topic can easily be discussed further and at length.
-Almost all typical harnesses are "climbing harnesses", not "rock climbing harnesses". You're good to go.
-I don't ascend, so can't provide input here.
-I use an ATC to rappel. These are supposedly a hell of a light nicer to your rope and are easier to control than eights.
-Lifeline? You're going to have to be more specific here.
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controleman
 
Location: Montreal
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 4 on 1/8/2010 4:18 PM >
| | | | I haven't been climing since a long time but here's my thought..
A climbing harness can do the job perfectly well if you only plan on rappeling, if you wish to ascend you might get tired too fast without the right harnesses (legs and chest, separated or not). The deal is, your chest ascender (croll or basic) will end-up in your neck with a climbing harness and you'll have to push twice to do the same job as with something made for that. I personally do like the Petzl super Avanti which is quite compact (but my ... keep being stuck in it). As for the chest harness you can just use a strap aswell just to ensure that your ascender stay close to your body, otherwise it keep moving and the rope won't feed through it at first if there's no weight at the bottom.
I never felt like more caution had to be taken.. execept maybe for the windows and anchors points.
Having a foot ascender is a great plus but it's not necessary, waist and chest is enough for the task. Keep a prusik as a safety if you stuff break but I doubt you'll like using it for regular ascending.
I kinda like the Stop or Simple over the 8 which twist the rope as hell but there's ton of other tool just give them a try and see the one you prefer.
I've never used any second rope and rarely see other people do, except for business stuff. Get some laneyards instead, that could save you if you do something stupid or just fall at the wrong moment.
Edit: Frog system FTW
[last edit 1/8/2010 4:20 PM by controleman - edited 1 times]
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musket boy
Location: Maui
Gender: Male
It smells like your grandpa and your feet stick to the floor
| |  | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 5 on 1/8/2010 4:24 PM >
| | | | you don't need a special harness for rappelling, a climbing harness will do, a figure 8 works but it twists the rope. Petzl stops are cumbersome an ungainly things to use, the best descender is a rack type.
the frog system is the best way to ascend, you can use a climbing harness for it too but its a lot easier if you have a caving harness because the attachment point on the front is a lot lower for the waist ascender
uering |
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\/adder
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 6 on 1/8/2010 4:24 PM >
| | | | I've been wondering how well this would work:
Except substitute a ATC for the GriGri because an ATC is a hell of a lot cheaper.
Moar pictures, slightly different setup:
Technique here:
http://www.chockst...g/TechTips/Jug.htm
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
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Bryan
Location: hello
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 7 on 1/8/2010 4:39 PM >
| | | |
Err, I think you need to relook at how an ATC works. It's not a pulley.
drive well sleep carefully
http://www.exboration.com/ |
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junkyard
Location: LaCrosse, WI
Gender: Male
Strategic Beer Command where the metal hits the meat.
| | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 8 on 1/8/2010 4:41 PM >
| | | | I just pull the rope and throw it over my shoulder. I never did like the idea of holding the rope for some guy with a frog or any of that shit until he kicks every rock, big and small on top of me in some mine until there is enough weight below him to hold itself. I'm all about less work and more height every time I pull. If you have it set up correct for you, it's fast and easy, but will be different for every person. It takes experience, no secret formulas here. And yes practicing changeovers is a very good idea, sometimes shit happens.
I drink gasoline for breakfeast and beer for dinner!
Any problem can be licked with a case of beer and a few sticks of dynamite.
Strategic Beer Command ruling the desert since 1995 http://www.strategic-beer-command.com |
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musket boy
Location: Maui
Gender: Male
It smells like your grandpa and your feet stick to the floor
| | | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 9 on 1/8/2010 4:50 PM >
| | | | Posted by Bryan
Err, I think you need to relook at how an ATC works. It's not a pulley.
|
that's not what he meant, he was talking about replacing the grigri with an atc, that wouldn't work though because a grigri is self locking and an atc only locks when the tail of the rope is pulled down, so in that setup you would just fall because the tail of the rope is going up, over the pully
[last edit 1/8/2010 4:52 PM by musket boy - edited 1 times]
uering |
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musket boy
Location: Maui
Gender: Male
It smells like your grandpa and your feet stick to the floor
| | | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 10 on 1/8/2010 5:00 PM >
| | | | this is what most people are using to ascend these days, its called frogging and its probably the simplest method since it doesnt require as much gear its easy to set up and pretty efficient. you need a croll type ascender, one hand ascender, a small length of cord to connect the hand ascender to your harness and make a foot loop, a piece of webbing to go around your neck and keep the chest croll vertical and a caving harness with a half round or a climbing harness and carabiner
heres a pic i drew
the hand ascender goes on the rope above the croll.
you hang from the croll and slide the hand ascender up the rope, then as you stand up on the foot loop the croll slides up the rope.
repeat that til you get to the top
[last edit 1/8/2010 5:16 PM by musket boy - edited 3 times]
uering |
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junkyard
Location: LaCrosse, WI
Gender: Male
Strategic Beer Command where the metal hits the meat.
| | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 11 on 1/8/2010 6:06 PM >
| | | | Check out the mini traxion, it's like a Gri-Gri, but has spikes that bite into the rope and a pulley. You will always have at least one ascender locked onto the rope. Using an atc on your harness in place of a locking device would be foolish when the right equipment is easily available. If not, you do what you have to. People have used two prussiks. In fact that's the way to go on a double rope. But you'll run right out and buy mechanical ascenders after the first time. Petzel has a nice catalog that shows how their setups work and provides plenty of details on rigging. It's free and worth checking out. But the best thing is to get out and use someone's setup a few times and see what you like best. I never told anyone no when asked to use some gear while gettin dirty.
I drink gasoline for breakfeast and beer for dinner!
Any problem can be licked with a case of beer and a few sticks of dynamite.
Strategic Beer Command ruling the desert since 1995 http://www.strategic-beer-command.com |
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wopke
Gender: Male
| | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 12 on 1/8/2010 7:32 PM >
| | | | thnx for the responses guys!
I've indeed heard that the petzl rack is a great descending device. I'll go for the ATC though. Lightweight, easy, and already familiar.
How many descends do you think I would need before starting on my own? A good tutorial in anchorpoints would be a must I gues?
I tried being reasonable, I didnt like it. - Clint Eastwood |
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musket boy
Location: Maui
Gender: Male
It smells like your grandpa and your feet stick to the floor
| | | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 13 on 1/8/2010 8:32 PM >
| | | | why do you want to know this anyway?
uering |
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wopke
Gender: Male
| | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 14 on 1/8/2010 8:57 PM >
| | | | Posted by musket boy
why do you want to know this anyway?
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future plans. As stated before, I would like to use it in exploring, but had no experience so far.
I tried being reasonable, I didnt like it. - Clint Eastwood |
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dsankt
Location: live and in the fresh
| | | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 15 on 1/8/2010 10:01 PM >
| | | | grigri + pulley thing as an ascender is slow, what's the point of the pulley anyway... you should be lifting your weight with your legs. I used that setup for about a week then ditched the pulley, then another week later just bought a chest ascender. Grigri + hand ascender is good for short pitch that that's about it. Otherwise do it right and get a chest ascender.
ALso, a grigri makes an okay short pitch descender but it's fucken fast on 9mm rope as I learned hauling ass down the front of a famous parisian monument. Even at full friction the grigri barely slowed me down, thankfully I was sporting a glove. Of course petzl doesn't recommend a grigri + 9mm but shit hey these things happen. Grigri is a great all round versatile device, I think it's worth the outlay 
[last edit 1/8/2010 10:03 PM by dsankt - edited 1 times]
sleepycity.net: watch out for the third rail baby, that shit is high voltage. urbex and urban exploration photography |
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\/adder
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 16 on 1/9/2010 12:40 AM >
| | | | Posted by musket boy
that's not what he meant, he was talking about replacing the grigri with an atc, that wouldn't work though because a grigri is self locking and an atc only locks when the tail of the rope is pulled down, so in that setup you would just fall because the tail of the rope is going up, over the pully.
|
It would still work. You would have to keep a hand on the tail . I never intended for the ATC to "lock".
The method would be
Put your weight on the ascender
Two hands: pull the tail up to your eyebrows.
Bring it back down to your belt.
Keep one hand on the rope and slide the Ascender up.
Repeat.
The ATC would perform the same task as the Gri-Gri but there would be no autolocking backup. I am well aware that if the Ascender fails, you're pretty much fucked for getting back up. If the Ascender failed and you had quite some distance to fall grabbing the tail between the ATC and pully and locking it down would stop yourself. If it was a short distance than you might not have time to react.
I think now honestly thinking about it; without the GriGri you lose the mechanical advantage.
dsankt seeing as you've done a lot of this:
For Ascension: This is the method you're recommending?
I wanted to use a Petzl Shunt but seeing as it's incompatible with braided rope, that's out.
I should note I have both a climbing harness and chest harness.
Black Diamond Vario Chest Harness
Black Diamond Vario Speed Harness
Croll + Ascender + Entrier?
[last edit 1/9/2010 12:44 AM by \/adder - edited 1 times]
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
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musket boy
Location: Maui
Gender: Male
It smells like your grandpa and your feet stick to the floor
| | | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 17 on 1/9/2010 2:39 AM >
| | | | Posted by TheVicariousVadder
It would still work. You would have to keep a hand on the tail . I never intended for the ATC to "lock".
|
an atc wont give you any friction at all in that position, you might as well not even use it then because you would be holding yourself up completely on your own
the way an atc works is with the tail going straight up theres no friction and yo pretty much freefall, bring the tail horizontal and you slow down, pull the tail straight down and you stop
[last edit 1/9/2010 2:42 AM by musket boy - edited 2 times]
uering |
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RollingBlackout
Location: Arizona
Gender: Male
| | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 18 on 1/9/2010 2:50 AM >
| | | | Posted by wopke
A good tutorial in anchorpoints would be a must I gues?
|
I'm trying to think of a way to put this without sounding like a lazy unsafe person but just use good judgment when picking anchor points. You might be surprised to hear this but one of the more common places I see people anchor to are the tow hooks on their vehicles. The knots you use on your line will be more complicated than picking anchor points.
Maybe anchor points are so easy to me because I have had a lifelong background in mechanics and machining. A lot of us can simply look at something and decide right there if it's going to be strong enough to anchor to or not.
If you spent a lot more time watching people rappel outdoors you would probably think you are overdoing it. I've seen people anchor to the dumbest shit, don't protect the rope, rappelling without descenders, you name it. Good judgment, good knots, and the right equipment will get you far.
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\/adder
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 19 on 1/9/2010 7:06 AM >
| | | | All right. So ATC =/= GriGi.
Check out this video here:
He uses two hand ascenders + entrier and get's up pretty damn fast.
http://www.youtube...atch?v=aVWwAhvrfao
Let's say I wanted to get up 100' of rope as quickly as possible and I have $200 to invest in doing it.
What would be the fastest/most efficient setup for that price range?
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
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