 |
|
|
UER Store
|
|
sweet UER decals:
|
|
|
|
Activity
|
|
968 online
Server Time:
2024-05-06 10:53:33
|
|
|
 MindHacker
   
Location: Suburbs of DC
Gender: Male
If you spot a terrorist arrow, pin it to the wall with your shoulder.
 |  | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 40 on 1/13/2010 5:11 PM >
|  | | | Posted by musket boy
Posted by wopke
Is a chest harness needed here?
|
nope
|
What he said. You'll stay upright anyways. Even if for some reason you'd start to go (huge backpack or something) your upper hand will keep you from flipping. Besides, it really takes a flip and a hard jerk to get to a situation where a chest-harness is needed, I've spun upside-down in a climbing harness (on purpose) with absolutely no worries.
[last edit 1/13/2010 5:12 PM by MindHacker - edited 1 times]
"That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire |
|
terapr0
   
Location: Sauga City
Gender: Male
www . tohellandback . net
| |  | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 42 on 1/13/2010 11:59 PM >
| | | | WTF I bought my copy off amazon months back and paid like $45 for a used copy. Weak sauce.
www.tohellandback.net |
|
junkyard
Location: LaCrosse, WI
Gender: Male
Strategic Beer Command where the metal hits the meat.
| | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 43 on 1/14/2010 12:33 AM >
| | | | Gotta look around, and sometimes it's all just timing. I often see books in the $20-50 range and others in the $1-10 range. It all depends on what the seller thinks it's worth.
I drink gasoline for breakfeast and beer for dinner!
Any problem can be licked with a case of beer and a few sticks of dynamite.
Strategic Beer Command ruling the desert since 1995 http://www.strategic-beer-command.com |
|
wopke
Gender: Male
| | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 45 on 2/10/2010 4:24 PM >
| | | | Lets say I have a steel pipe or bar on which I want to rappel from. Which anchor point is the best, the bottom sling being the rope? The 2 top slings might be in an angle as shown on the pictures, or they might hang together. Its best they hang together so they both can carry the full weight, right?
1)
2)
I tried being reasonable, I didnt like it. - Clint Eastwood |
|
junkyard
Location: LaCrosse, WI
Gender: Male
Strategic Beer Command where the metal hits the meat.
| | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 46 on 2/10/2010 7:19 PM >
| | | | The first one would be the best of the two. But I would use 2 biners. Problems, are the slings will want to come together from the vector forces anyway, so why not help them out and put them together. That would be great for 2 separate anchors, so the design is correct from that standpoint. The other thing is only one anchor, if the pipe fails, everything below it does as well. Not that I haven't done that before. If you are sure it's not going anywhere, it would be sufficient. I have anchored to a single industrial motor and such before. If you have 4000 lbs of steel bolted to the floor with 4 1 in bolts, if you move that, you've got bigger problems anyway.
[last edit 2/10/2010 7:21 PM by junkyard - edited 1 times]
I drink gasoline for breakfeast and beer for dinner!
Any problem can be licked with a case of beer and a few sticks of dynamite.
Strategic Beer Command ruling the desert since 1995 http://www.strategic-beer-command.com |
|
wopke
Gender: Male
| | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 47 on 2/10/2010 7:26 PM >
| | | | Posted by junkyard
The other thing is only one anchor, if the pipe fails, everything below it does as well. Not that I haven't done that before. If you are sure it's not going anywhere, it would be sufficient.
|
I was thinking about this:
I tried being reasonable, I didnt like it. - Clint Eastwood |
|
Therrin
 
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| |  | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 50 on 2/12/2010 1:54 AM >
| | | | Since I do tree work, I rely on a wide base of climbing/ascending skills. There are different situations which allow the use of different techniques for better access than just relying on one method.
For rappelling, I use either a figure 8 or a rack. Figure 8's twist the rope, but are a little easier to use than the rack. The rack is nice though because you can vary the amount of friction you want to use and its a passive system, no springs/cams/clutches. Also, with my rack using all the hyper bars, I can descend hands free at a nice slow pace. This is kinda nice because if for any reason you loose your grip or let go of the rope, you wont just sail down the line like you would on an 8 or ATC.
For rappelling, the rope you're using *IS* your lifeline. You can descend using either 2:1 or 1:1; meaning you can use the middle of the rope at the anchor point and rappell down it double, which is nice because it allows you to pull the rope down from below. Or you can tie in at the anchor and rappell down a single line. When doing this you can always put a prussik on the line with a short loop going to your harness. With this you keep one hand on the trailing end (brake hand) and one hand on the prussik. As you descend, your hand holding the prussik allows it to slide along freely, but if you let go it'll hold you in one spot so you dont plummet.
For ascending, you can also use a 2:1 system (called DRT) or 1:1 (SRT). I used DRT on a long ascent a couple weeks ago, and its very smooth, but it's not as "fast" as SRT. On SRT ascents you can use a variety of means. Two prussik's is the cheapest, simplest way of going, and I've used that to ascend thousands of feet of rope over the years before I went mechanical.
Now though I've got 2 Petzl handled rope ascenders, a minitraxion (which I LOVE), 2 tiblocs, a couple small pulleys, and a buckingham rope clamp/grab.
I saw you guys mentioned the petzl foot ascender. You really don't need two people for it. I've used them with a friend before, for the first few yards its easier if you hand from your upper attatchment and pull the rop through yourself, after that the weight of the rope pulls it down pretty well.
If you're ascending DRT, there are mechanical all-in-one devices for that as well, the Spyderjack, lockjack, lockjack sport, and a few others. And there are also rope hitches you can tie to ascend and move about, like the taut-line hitch, the VT, distel, and other varieties.
I rarely double up biners. For work I use aluminum locking biners for my lifeline/positioning stuff, and steel for rigging. Some people say all steel, all the time, but if you've got a situation that'll snap a locking aluminum carabiner, it's really the least of your problems.
For YEARS I rock climbed without any locking biners. It's all in the technique you use, but for access type stuff and high-angle access I'd still suggest only using locking biners. I use screw-gates and autolockers; the screwgates you need to LOOK AT and verify that they're locked, and check them occasionally. The auto's are nice, but the springs can fail and gum up with sap/debris/gunk/etc. So they arent "foolproof", you should still visually verify that they're locked propperly.
I'll look up some stuff I have on this topic and see about posting it.
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
|
wopke
Gender: Male
| | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 51 on 2/12/2010 11:26 PM >
| | | | ok, so I did my first little ascending and descending. The descent went with a grigri. The height wasnt much, so I used a prusik to back it up. But man, it was crap descending this way because I felt like keeping one hand on the loose end of the rope, and one on the prusik or grigri. So I only could delay like 50cm at the time. What device do you guys suggest to back up the descent next to the grigri? I was thinking about a shunt, but it also needs a hand when descending I think, when i need both for the grigri.
[last edit 2/12/2010 11:26 PM by wopke - edited 1 times]
I tried being reasonable, I didnt like it. - Clint Eastwood |
|
\/adder
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 52 on 2/13/2010 1:00 AM >
| | | | Fuck the expensive mechanical stuff, an ATC or figure eight is more than enough on the descent.
Or if you wanna get fancy get a rack descender.
Oh, and the shunt only works on kertmantle rope not the cheap braided stuff you can buy at cabelas/walmart.
[last edit 2/13/2010 1:02 AM by \/adder - edited 1 times]
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
|
Bryan
 
Location: hello
Gender: Male
| | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 53 on 2/13/2010 1:23 AM >
| | | | Posted by TheVicariousVadder
Fuck the expensive mechanical stuff, an ATC or figure eight is more than enough on the descent.
Or if you wanna get fancy get a rack descender.
Oh, and the shunt only works on kertmantle rope not the cheap braided stuff you can buy at cabelas/walmart.
|
lol wut
I'd personally take a mechanical descender over an ATC/Figure 8, especially if it's a STOP. You're not only ensured foolproof safety, but also the ability to stop half way down to take photos/adjust your package.
And I would be hoping he was using a kermantle rope..
drive well sleep carefully
http://www.exboration.com/ |
|
Therrin
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: North of Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
*Therrin puts on the penguin-suit
| | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 54 on 2/13/2010 1:35 AM >
| | | | I agree, if you're gonna use a prussik backup, use an 8 or an ATC, that way you can keep one hand on the prussik and one hand on the free end.
If you're using a petzl STOP (or even the grigri) you really dont need a backup. Just use it like it's designed and go with it.
I've been interested for awhile in picking up petzl's "I'D" descending device. The great thing about the I'D, (and I *think* the grigri) is that if you panic and GRAB the lever, instead of letting it go; it has an overcamming device that jams the rope up instead of letting you just plummet.
Give a person a match and they'll be warm for a minute, but light them on fire and they'll be warm for the rest of their life. =) |
|
\/adder
Location: DunkarooLand
Gender: Male
I'm the worst of the best but I'm in this race.
| | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 55 on 2/13/2010 2:50 AM >
| | | |
My previous post was a bit ambiguous. I don't want to confuse descenders with belay devices. I'm saying there is minimal advantage with using a active camming (shunt,grigri) over passive camming (ATC, Figure 8) in that fashion. The fancy mechanical belay devices function the same as the cheaper simple ones.
A descender such as a rack descender or stop is a specialized piece of equipment. Designed for ... descending, but the grigri/shunt is, (for me) not economically preferable over the simpler F8/ATC.
I pointed out braided rope == no-no on the shunt, as a warning. Kermantle rope is kind of expensive to leave behind in a "Oh shit security, RUN!" event if he was to have to carry a cheaper rope for "tie it and go" fast escape throw away purposes, the shunt would not work on it.
[last edit 2/13/2010 2:57 AM by \/adder - edited 3 times]
"No risk, no reward, no fun."
"Go all the way or walk away"
escensi omnis... |
|
wopke
Gender: Male
| | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 56 on 2/13/2010 2:51 PM >
| | | | well, the thing is, I already have a grigri. I have it for about 5 years now, and am really comfortable working with it. So the rappeling with the grigri felt really natural to me. It offers me to stop where I want and take pictures or whatever.
But I would like to have a backup for my grigri, other then the prusik. when it fails, I do not want to free fall down the rope, I want something like a prusik to auto lock, but also something that automatically follows the rope when I rappel. So it only needs to lock when the rope suddenly goes through the device very fast.
Actually, something like this: http://www.petzl.c...t-device-rope/asap
But this is used on a lifeline and its 120 euros, which is a too expensive imo.
Ill try the ATC and prusik next time. The thing is, I also use the grigri for ascending.
I tried being reasonable, I didnt like it. - Clint Eastwood |
|
wopke
Gender: Male
| | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 57 on 2/15/2010 4:20 PM >
| | | | with the prusik and ATC went great. This indeed might be a better setup. More lightweight, and smoother then the grigri plus I've got my rappeling backup. I do need some other slings though. I need some from 60cm, now I use 120cm.
For the ascend I'll buy a croll and use the ascension (which I allready have thanks to my girlfriend), both connected to the harness and a sling connected on the ascension for pushing myself upward with the feet.
Sounds like a good setup no? Now I need more practice.
The prusik is something I really start to appreciate. So simple, so effective.
[last edit 2/15/2010 4:21 PM by wopke - edited 1 times]
I tried being reasonable, I didnt like it. - Clint Eastwood |
|
terapr0
Location: Sauga City
Gender: Male
www . tohellandback . net
| | | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 58 on 2/15/2010 5:51 PM >
| | | | I dont understand the rationale of backing up an ATC with a prussik, especially since you already own a grigri. Are you worried that the stainless steel frame of your auto-locking grigri is going to break apart or something? I used to worry about my old scratched up ATC fracturing on me, so I went out an bought a STOP, which I know is strong as fuck. mechanically & metallurgically speaking, grigri's, STOP's and ID's are far stronger than an aluminum ATC (not that I think there are many cases of ATC's breaking in half under normal use)
Also, I've read in many different places that ATC/Prussik "third hand" backups are unreliable and imbue a false sense of confidence in the user. Natural instinct in the event of a crisis is to grab at the prussik backup as hard as you can, causing it to slip. Its more of a placebo than anything. If you're worried about a rock falling on your head, knocking you out mid rap, use an auto-locking device like the one you already own (oh, and wear a helmet!).
You mentioned earlier that you were looking at something like an ASAP for your backup...if you're really and truly worried about your safety, this is a great idea that wont slow your descent. They're used extensively by professionals, and could be a real lifesaver if your main rope or ATC failed. It might not be cheap, but nothing about climbing is inexpensive. Broke with no $$$ to buy proper gear? go play soccer or something.
Personally, I worry more about my anchors and rope abrasion than my belay device failing. I think you're better off using your grigri & wearing a helmet than searching for endless levels of redundancy with an ATC. Make your rigging as redundant as possible, then strive for simplicity & reliability in your other equipment. Then again, as long as your buying quality name brand gear, it should all be "safe". have a bit of faith, and use what you're most comfortable and familiar with.
just my $0.02
www.tohellandback.net |
|
MindHacker
Location: Suburbs of DC
Gender: Male
If you spot a terrorist arrow, pin it to the wall with your shoulder.
| | Re: rappeling abseiling
<Reply # 59 on 2/15/2010 5:58 PM >
| | | | There's a lot of argument over whether or not it's worth using a prussick with the figure 8 / atc. Statistically, they tend to cause more problems than they solve (someone did a study, I forget where though...) The main problem is that when people (noobs) start to fall, they instinctively grab the rope tighter, which prevents the self-belay from doing anything. Terapr0 covered that while I was typing. Oops.
I was doing an elevator shaft and my gf did that very thing, started to slip and grabbed the prussick that much tighter, leading to her taking the last 15 feet at almost free-fall speeds, leaving her with a few bruises and a scar from the rope-burn.
I suppose if you had a location in mind that called for a back-up for some reason it could be a good idea, but I'd test it once or twice (yeah, loosening it will be somewhat of a pain) just to get used to the motion.
Also, make sure it's long enough that it won't catch prematurely, and it can't get caught in the descender.
[last edit 2/15/2010 5:59 PM by MindHacker - edited 1 times]
"That's just my opinion. I would, however, advocate for explosive breaching, since speed and looking cool are both concerns in my job."-Wilkinshire |
|
|
|
All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire.
To contact webmaster, or click to email with problems or other questions about this site:
UER CONTACT
View Terms of Service |
View Privacy Policy |
Server colocation provided by Beanfield
This page was generated for you in 78 milliseconds. Since June 23, 2002, a total of 740799368 pages have been generated.
|
|
