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1 2   UER Forum > Archived Old Forum Issues > Location DB idea (Viewed 395 times) Poll Question: Do you think it would be a good idea to add some form of protection to the UE location database to help prevent law enforcement and civic authorities from browsing it? Total Votes: 31 1. Yes, protect our information. 23 74.19 % 2. No, let the authorities see it all. 8 25.81 % Detroit  Moderator Location: Ottawa /Gatineau /Montreal Gender: Male 4-aminophenol and 2-5% potassium hydroxide  |  |  |  Location DB idea < on 11/14/2003 5:43 PM >   Okay here it comes ... AV you can start telling me I am wrong... right.... now! I have already expressed my concern that the UE location database is a magnet for unwanted media and authority attention. I want to expand on my thoughts here. (In fact this entire board is a magnet for search engine hits. I can search in Google for something I mentioned in a post 2 months ago and it will come up in the first few hits. You should really do something about that…However, I am not focussing on that here.) What concerns me is the UELDB. Although for some reason I feel I am going against the current by raising this issue, other long time members of this board have voiced similar thoughts and have agreed with my concerns. Before I start AV, I want to make a couple of points clear. I am not going to get into an argument with you about what caused the mess at Canada Malting in TO (I just used it as an example)- you obviously have more info on that than I do. I am also not going to argue with you about the fact that most of the info in the DB was previously available in one form or another on many various sites on the net. Yes it was. (On various seperate, unrelated sites) My point is this: While the UELDB is a fantastic tool for UErs, it is also a useful tool for authorities and law enforcement. In fact it is a nice pretty list of places for them to check and secure. These folks do talk to each other ... I can tell you that much... (this has to do with my area of employment which I WILL NOT get into here). AV, do you really believe that having all of the previously disparate info amalgamated in the UELDB does not facilitate authorities becoming aware of current interest in abandoned places or drains in their area? It seems to me it makes their jobs a hell of a lot easier. If that is the case, why bother creating the DB in the first place? Here is what I suggest. In short -Secure the database so that only people with permission can view the contents. -If someone wants to get permission they have to add a location to the DB. -Submissions would be checked by a moderator who would verify that it is a legitimate location. Obviously this is not a fool proof idea but it would effectively narrow down access to the DB to those people who are most likely really interested in it for UE purposes. I for one want to share my finds with fellow UErs, not law enforcement and civic authorities. I highly doubt many of them will go to the trouble of posting locations in the UELDB to gain access to it... One more thing ...Maybe I am full of crap but I have been noticing a decline in the number of real "UE" related posts over that past while (especially in Ontario and Quebec forums). In fact someone has started a thread in the Quebec forum complaining that it is like an abandoned building in there. - Maybe this lack of activity is a reflection of people’s reluctance to post and discuss their UE activities in such an unnecessarily open and public board. I know for a fact that many groups are not adding locations to the DB because it is so insecure and overtly public. TUL, UEM, Wraiths... I am sure the list goes on and on... So common AV, please implement some form of protection for our information. It is only fair. You expect us to share our sites ... the least you could do would be to add some small form of protection to help us feel better about exposing our "places" to the entire world. How can this be a bad idea? [last edit 11/14/2003 5:48 PM by Detroit - edited 2 times] The end of the beginning is the beginning of the end. j0lt  Location: Kobe, Japan Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 1 on 11/14/2003 6:22 PM >   Sorry Detroit, my vote goes for freedom of information. I don't think that anything bad will come from 'the authorities' being able to look at places we know about and/or have taken pictures of. j0lt: Larger than life and twice as ugly! Detroit  Moderator Location: Ottawa /Gatineau /Montreal Gender: Male 4-aminophenol and 2-5% potassium hydroxide  |  |  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 2 on 11/14/2003 6:30 PM >   Well ... I just wanted to voice my opinion. If no one agrees with me then I guess that will show that I am the one who is wrong. That's cool ... The end of the beginning is the beginning of the end. j0lt  Location: Kobe, Japan Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 3 on 11/14/2003 6:33 PM >   So far, it's 2 votes apiece... Oh the tension!!! j0lt: Larger than life and twice as ugly! MacGyver  Location: St Paul, Minnesota Gender: Male "Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 4 on 11/14/2003 7:53 PM >   I'm with detroit. I don't know if what he describes is exactly the best way to do it, but it sure looks a lot better than what we have now. Any vandal can get all sorts of information about what's inside of abandoned buildings sorted handily by province and city. Many even give the address or idiot-proof directions to the place. Av will point out once again that entry details are not given. Although that may be true, vandals and arsonists don't need to know how to get in. Once you dangle the cookiue so to speak and show them exactly what's inside (pristine walls to tag, valuable equipment to salvage, large open spaces for raves, whatever) they will gladly make their own entrance. A lot of you detail-heavy people don't seem to realize that if you tell exactly where a place is but don't tell how to get in, the building can no longer be considered secure. It's just a matter of time before someone with bad intentions decided to drive over there and smash a hole in the wall, then proceed to tear the shit out of your previously pristine exploration site. There are far too many types of people that lack the ethics so many of us value that can freely view that information in the DB. Does this make sense to anyone at all? edit: I should state that I don't think the authorities browsing the DB is the as much of a concern as the nuckleheads that can see it and will do the things I have described above. It is true that once the authorities see the wealth of information all in one handy place, they will probably think the same thing as I do and try to secure it. [last edit 11/14/2003 7:54 PM by MacGyver - edited 1 times] Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine "If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." Capone  Location: London, Ontario Gender: Male UEL  |  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 5 on 11/14/2003 8:58 PM >   I think securing it is a good idea. Perhaps restricting access to as Detroit said those who post a location and/or are well-known & established members here. As for people not posting many locations, I know for me personally, the reason why is partly because it's not secure, but mostly because I figure why go and post all my pictures and exploration writeups on the UELDB when they're already up on my site. I'll post a link to my explorations if a location UEL has been to is already up there, but otherwise it seems (and no offense to Av, because the UELDB does kick ass) a bit redundant if you already have a site with your exploits on it. So there I was, in this creepy old hallway... Avatar-X  Alpha Husky Location: West Coast Gender: Male yay!  |  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 6 on 11/14/2003 9:25 PM >   You make some good points, detroit. However: - Are we really so afraid of the authorities that we have to cower behind a curtain? Our only crime is trespassing. UE websites usually make it clear that the reason we do it is for curiousity, not because we want to vandalize or whatever. - Your suggested method of controlling access would allow about 20 people into the LDB, out of our registered user base of 1000+. The database, like the forum, is dependant on the users to make it work. - Like the database, anything you post in the forum is public. So why aren't you asking to have the forums closed up too? The simple fact is, people need to be discreet and vague in the LDB, just like they are in the forum. Posting of the address is optional, there's no rule that says you have to do it. If you really want to, you can even put in a fake city. Oh, and by the way, the decline in UE-related threads is most likely due to the advent of winter. I know that I explore less due to the oncoming cold, it's just somehow less fun, unless it's indoors or heated. huskies - such fluff. MacGyver  Location: St Paul, Minnesota Gender: Male "Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 7 on 11/14/2003 9:46 PM >   Posted by Avatar-X - Are we really so afraid of the authorities that we have to cower behind a curtain? Our only crime is trespassing. UE websites usually make it clear that the reason we do it is for curiousity, not because we want to vandalize or whatever. It's not cowering behind a curtain, it's just making a lower profile. Just trespassing is one thing, but posting all the nitty gritty details about it and describing the ease of entry into the structure and the level of security is another thing. Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine "If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." Asher Archive  Pikachu Gender: Female  |  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 8 on 11/14/2003 9:50 PM >   If you do not like the idea and/or openness of the DB then do not add to it --each to their own and all. ^-^ [last edit 11/14/2003 9:51 PM by Asher Archive - edited 1 times] Detroit  Moderator Location: Ottawa /Gatineau /Montreal Gender: Male 4-aminophenol and 2-5% potassium hydroxide  |  |  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 9 on 11/14/2003 10:01 PM >   Posted by Asher Archive If you do not like the idea and/or openness of the DB then do not add to it --each to their own and all. ^-^ The problem with this logic is that it ruins it for everyone... If you post to the DB or not is irrelevant... it is the fact that its existence is a threat to the covert nature of our pastime. The end of the beginning is the beginning of the end. Detroit  Moderator Location: Ottawa /Gatineau /Montreal Gender: Male 4-aminophenol and 2-5% potassium hydroxide  |  |  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 10 on 11/14/2003 10:07 PM >   Posted by Avatar-X - Your suggested method of controlling access would allow about 20 people into the LDB, out of our registered user base of 1000+. The database, like the forum, is dependant on the users to make it work. Don't you think this would encourage people to add locations? I think it would cause the DB to balloon in size because many people on here know of locations and just don't post them (for various reasons). If the info was relatively secure and they knew posting the sites would get them access to the rest of the DB I think it would motivate members to add stuff. Besides maybe someone else can think of a better method to limit access, I just threw that up as a suggestion. The important fact here is that it needs to be secured. As for the rest of the forum being public, well I think that is sort of annoying as well. Are you not able with all of your programming wizardry to at least shield the posts from search engines? P.S. ya ya I know a double post ... shame on me ... [last edit 11/14/2003 10:08 PM by Detroit - edited 1 times] The end of the beginning is the beginning of the end. Asher Archive  Pikachu Gender: Female  |  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 11 on 11/14/2003 10:37 PM >   Posted by Detroit Posted by Asher Archive If you do not like the idea and/or openness of the DB then do not add to it --each to their own and all. ^-^ The problem with this logic is that it ruins it for everyone... If you post to the DB or not is irrelevant... it is the fact that its existence is a threat to the covert nature of our pastime. It isn't a logic that can ruin anything, per se, it's that you can't force other people to believe and follow whatever it is that you do. Av made that DB and the people who are using it will use it no matter what you think and as much as that might suck, well, that's how it is. Should enough people feel that the DB is harmful many sites will simply not be put up there and the DB won't have a whole lot to stand on. If not then it will thrive and perhaps the sites listed will become targets and no one will take note until it's too late. Posting to the DB or not is completely relevant as the users (you) make it. Also, UE isn't covert and that's really a rather silly thing to think. Everyone knows about it, in one form or another, it's just something that is done. Trespassing and all that crap isn't a part of UE but something that happens sometimes. I think we are forgetting what the 'E' stands for. We're not fucking secret agents with uber-leet skillz and knowledge; we're just people doing stuff. Yeah. [last edit 11/14/2003 10:45 PM by Asher Archive - edited 1 times] Detroit  Moderator Location: Ottawa /Gatineau /Montreal Gender: Male 4-aminophenol and 2-5% potassium hydroxide  |  |  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 12 on 11/14/2003 10:54 PM >   Pronunciation: 'kO-(")v&rt, kO-'; 'k&-v&rt Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, past participle of covrir to cover Date: 14th century 1 : not openly shown, engaged in, or avowed Perhaps it was not the BEST word for the meaning I was trying to convey. However I am not a "lets play hide and seek" kind of Explorer. I go to old buildings, some with security, some without, I sneak in, take pictures and leave. That's it. No games with me or anyone else involved with TUL. I was using the word "Covert" in relation to it's first meaning as shown above - NOT OPENLY SHOWN ... ie ... Most UErs with at least 2 bits of common sense don't go around telling every stranger they meet on the street what they are doing. That would be retarded and fairly counter productive I would expect. Well isn't that what a wide open fully public DB is doing... blabbing to anyone and everyone ... hey looky here ... abandoned buildings near me … hmmmm Anyways I don't want to get into a silly flame war about wording and such. I think that it is MUCH better to be prudent and err on the side of caution when it come to access to what amounts to a mapquest of UE sites. I want to repeat something ... Besides the fact that some people have personal feelings against it, how can this be a bad idea? I am not promoting this idea for any personal gain. I just think that someone has to speak up and say something before we all get screwed. Be it vandals and button heads or cops and authorities... This board and the UELDB in particular are way to easy to spot on the net. [last edit 11/14/2003 10:56 PM by Detroit - edited 1 times] The end of the beginning is the beginning of the end. Frost  Location: K.Dot Gender: Male No beer makes Frosty go..something something..(Taz: Crrazzy?)..Dont mind if I doo!  |  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 13 on 11/14/2003 10:59 PM >   Posted by Asher Archive <snip> Av made that DB and the people who are using it will use it no matter what you think and as much as that might suck, well, that's how it is. <snip> It may suck that they may want to add whatever they want, but the whole point of this thread is to rectify that problem as it stands. It's like a petition to change things... this happens all the time in the world, and it's the same thing here. Posting to the DB or not is completely relevant as the users (you) make it. Also, UE isn't covert and that's really a rather silly thing to think. Everyone knows about it, in one form or another, it's just something that is done. Trespassing and all that crap isn't a part of UE but something that happens sometimes. I think we are forgetting what the 'E' stands for. We're not fucking secret agents with uber-leet skillz and knowledge; we're just people doing stuff. This may not be covert type of shit with "ub3r-l337" skills or whatever, but I'm sure those of us who do take this hobby with a touch of seriousness would like to protect those sites that they have an interest in. I see nothing wrong with the DB being locked up to outsiders, and it would cause less places to be closed or boarded up. We may be trespassing, but if we let all this information out into the open, it's that whole "exposure will cause more crackdown" and it's very true. The more we expose UE to the outside world then the more we're going to see authorities cracking down on those sites and UEer's themselves. The authorities may not show an extreme interest in us and it may even be considered pretty harmless or "gray" (as I remember an RCMP officer telling Jester) but that doesn't mean that they won't eventually decide that they don't want to deal with this problem anymore and start a campaign to shut us all down. It happened with cigarette's. Maybe that isn't the best example, but hell, there use to be advertising and whatnot from that industry that would support *many* extracurricular events and now those events don't have the same sponsorship that they use to all because they decided to crackdown on it and cut out all the outside shit. Now all you can do is sell smokes and that's it. (Like I said, not the best example, but good enough for now). Don't get me wrong, I totally believe in freedom of information/speech, but that doesn't mean that I want all these authorities causing more problems and shit then needed. It's bad enough now that the sites are quickly disappearing, either due to being boarded/secured, renovated, demolition, etc., we don't need any more "help" in that. And just another point on that whole covert thing and thinking it's silly, that may be your opinion on the matter, but some people do like to make this interesting instead of wearing nice pristine clothing and exploring a site. It's all part of the fun. Too many people don't have enough of an imagination, the world has made them anal, and that's what causes stupid statements like that. All this "grow up" crap is getting tiring. I think people need to relax and have a little more fun and enjoy themselves, so what if they want to go out and dress up like the army or some covert operation, they're still having fun and it adds to the atmosphere. Who cares! It's really sad when people have to be all anal retentive about things. K-os Why is marijuana not legal? Why is marijuana not legal? Its a natural plant that grows in the dirt. You know what's not natural, 80 year old dudes with hardons. Thats not natural, but we got pills for that. We're dedicating all our resources to keeping the old guys erect but we're puttin people in jail for smoking something that grows in the dirt. Jester  Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada Gender: Male Always just out of sight...  |  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 14 on 11/14/2003 11:02 PM >   As for my opinion... I'm not worried about the authorities so much in this, but the dumb-ass vandals that will wreck the places. people that will call themselves explorers and just go there and smash shit. Notice no entries in the DB for Vancouver ? I haven't added any due to concerns about them getting abused. The only ones I'd consider adding would be places with high security, so if some jack ass wants to try and fuck a place up, he can try and do it with a police dog clamped on his arm... I voted to secure the DB. It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. Asher Archive  Pikachu Gender: Female  |  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 15 on 11/14/2003 11:19 PM >   Posted by K-os This may not be covert type of shit with "ub3r-l337" skills or whatever, but I'm sure those of us who do take this hobby with a touch of seriousness would like to protect those sites that they have an interest in. I see nothing wrong with the DB being locked up to outsiders, and it would cause less places to be closed or boarded up. We may be trespassing, but if we let all this information out into the open, it's that whole "exposure will cause more crackdown" and it's very true. The more we expose UE to the outside world then the more we're going to see authorities cracking down on those sites and UEer's themselves. ... Don't get me wrong, I totally believe in freedom of information/speech, but that doesn't mean that I want all these authorities causing more problems and shit then needed. It's bad enough now that the sites are quickly disappearing, either due to being boarded/secured, renovated, demolition, etc., we don't need any more "help" in that. And just another point on that whole covert thing and thinking it's silly, that may be your opinion on the matter, but some people do like to make this interesting instead of wearing nice pristine clothing and exploring a site. It's all part of the fun. Too many people don't have enough of an imagination, the world has made them anal, and that's what causes stupid statements like that. All this "grow up" crap is getting tiring. I think people need to relax and have a little more fun and enjoy themselves, so what if they want to go out and dress up like the army or some covert operation, they're still having fun and it adds to the atmosphere. Who cares! It's really sad when people have to be all anal retentive about things. K-os Ironic. Moving on, I voted to secure it as well, but then again I don't use it. I honestly have no vested interested in it being locked up or not but I think a great many of you need to at least sort out why it is that you wanted it kept away from those pesky outsiders. I'm sure if you had a solid reason and all that nice stuff Av would have no problem at all with it at all, then again you never do know. I guess what I am saying this thread just caught me a being offish because the first thing said wasn't, "I was thinking that maybe...". No. It was baiting and just The Wrong Way to draw someones attention to a problem. It comes down to not being condescending to someone you're asking something of. From the sounds of the first post Av would flip if he read this and just ignore all reason and rant away at why someone is wrong. I'd hope we know Av isn't going to do that, right? When I'd like something I say 'please'. [last edit 11/14/2003 11:43 PM by Asher Archive - edited 4 times] Ben  Noble Donor Location: Mojave Desert Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 16 on 11/14/2003 11:45 PM >   Posted by Asher Archive From the sounds of the first post Av would flip if he read this and just ignore all reason and rant away at why someone is wrong. I'd hope we know Av isn't going to do that, right? He does if you use the word "carrot". Crossfire  Location: Kay-Dub Gender: Male Don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years.  |  |  |  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 17 on 11/15/2003 1:02 AM >   Posted by Asher Archive We're not fucking secret agents with uber-leet skillz and knowledge; we're just people doing stuff. Speak for yourself, Ash. (fires grappling hook from watch and ascends into shadowy shadows above> I voted to secure the DB from non-registered members, as well. It should be noted that this will also cut down on the amount of bandwidth being used by the forum, which has also been an issue lately. This is the reason I think it should be secured and made 'non-Googleable'. Personally, I don't give a tinker's damn if the OPP or the TTC or the RCMP browse through the LDB - as long as they have a registered account. C. Disgruntled. Shane  Moderator Location: Bronx, NY Gender: Male  |  |  |  |  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 18 on 11/15/2003 4:12 AM >   I voted to secure it. I for one have not made any posts to the location database, nor do I intend to in it's current incarnation. I'm quite reluctant to post things on my own site for fear or getting them closed up. Anything you see on my site is a place that I have decided that I am done with and would be content if I never got to return to it. Actually, quite a few of the locations on my site have been locked up recently (4 or 5 sites within a month or so I'd say). I'm a bit suspicious that someone may have found my site and went around notifying the owners of the properties, but I honestly don't know. I have something like 10 locations that I have visited but haven't posted to my site yet because I am either not done with them, or haven't decided if I ever want to make them public. It kind of sucks, because the sites are some of the most interesting I've ever seen. So I don't post them because I would like to go back without worrying about increased security. "Because there's no possibility of real disaster, real risk, we're left with no chance for real salvation. Real elation. Real excitement. Joy. Discovery. Invention. The laws that keep us safe, these same laws condemn us to boredom. Without access to true chaos, we'll never have true peace. Unless everything can get worse, it won't get any better." -Chuck Palahniuk NoSuchPerson  Stop, or I'll ask you again!  |  Re: Location DB idea <Reply # 19 on 11/15/2003 6:33 AM >   Well, I voted to secure it. However, if I could retract that and change it, I would. It's all about the free exchange of information. Yeah, if you post a site on there, use discresion (ie, a moderator should approve it first), and don't post any info that would draw suspicion. UE isn't ALL about trespassing. I've had just as much fun checking out places legally as I have otherwise. -Ex Unit calling radio say again? UER Forum > Archived Old Forum Issues > Location DB idea (Viewed 395 times) 1 2   All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire. 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