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701 online
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2024-05-15 23:35:22
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 NezMo
Location: Worcester, Massachusetts
Gender: Male
 |  |  | Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
< on 9/21/2005 2:20 AM >
|  | | | I'm new here so I don't know if this has been discussed before, but what is the difference between B+E and Tresspassing? I know it seems obvious; forced entry versus simply wandering in. But iv'e been harassed by cops who claim they can charge me with B+E for merely opening an unlocked door. I've brought up the point that i never broke anything to get in but that's usually met with a sharp "Lose the attitude kid" screamed two inches from my face. So whats the deal here, is it bullshit or do they have grounds to arrest me for B+E? Has this happened to you?
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Louie
      
| |  | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 1 on 9/21/2005 2:25 AM >
|  | | | Posted by NezMo
I'm new here so I don't know if this has been discussed before, but what is the difference between B+E and Tresspassing? I know it seems obvious; forced entry versus simply wandering in. But iv'e been harassed by cops who claim they can charge me with B+E for merely opening an unlocked door. I've brought up the point that i never broke anything to get in but that's usually met with a sharp "Lose the attitude kid" screamed two inches from my face. So whats the deal here, is it bullshit or do they have grounds to arrest me for B+E? Has this happened to you?
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Cops can charge you with anything, but as a minor, you can get out of most stuff in court. Don't worry about it and avoid the cops. Strike up a conversation about the history, or how to get permission for photography, or some other clean, PC form of exploring...
Keep in mind that security guards can't do anything.
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The Warden
Location: Seattle
Gender: Male
| | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 2 on 9/21/2005 2:56 AM >
| | | | It can differ from state to state. Here in MN, I believe that trespassing is usually a gross misdemeanor while B&E or even possession of B&E tools can be a felony. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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uem-Tux
Iron Wok Jan
Location: Montreal
Gender: Male
UE Geek
| |  | | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 3 on 9/21/2005 3:02 AM >
| | | | Opening a door is usually enough for the charge to be upgraded to B&E.
Urban Exploration Montreal
Why are you the way that you are? |
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Disgrace
Location: Saint John, New Brunswick
| | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 4 on 9/21/2005 3:37 AM >
| | | | The police can charge you with anything they want. But that doesn't mean it'll hold up in court. They do it to scare people away from repeating the crime. They do it in the hopes that they can make the charge stick based on some wacky technicality.
They can charge you with B&E, even try to prove it in court, but any decent lawyer will get you off with just a trespassing charge.
In any case, if the cops say they're going to charge you with something, it's best not to argue. For one, it's not actually the beat cop's place to lay the charges, they're just there to stop you. So arguing with them isn't going to accomplish anything(literally), unless you just want to annoy them.
It's better to just do what was said earlier. Try to be friendly, cooperative, and ask questions about how to legally do what you were doing. Who to contact, what to do, etcetera. Make it clear you weren't trying to do any harm.
But yeah. Laws differ from country to country, province to province, state to state. Call up a lawyer and get the details for your state, if you wanna pay the hourly. It might be worth it.
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Milambar
Location: Manchester, UK
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 5 on 9/21/2005 4:15 AM >
| | | | Here in the UK at least, trespass isn't actually a criminal offence, its a civil offence. So the police will always try and charge you with breaking and entering.
Hey, they've got to keep the number of arrests per night up to meet their targets, even if they are trivial arrests.
Still, its useful to know you are not committing a crime in the UK, when trespassing. Its up to the landowner/proprietor to prosecute you for trespass as a civil offence. All the police can do is charge you with breaking an entering (which IS a crime), or ask you to leave the land by the shortest reasonable route possible.
-- Modified - fixed formatting --
[last edit 9/21/2005 4:16 AM by Milambar - edited 1 times]
http://milambar.fu...info/exploring.php |
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Slowpoke
| | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 6 on 9/21/2005 7:33 AM >
| | | | Personally, I dont see the issue here. The law will try and scare you, notice most police have power trips (wether its obvious or subtle) in one form or another. Scare tactics is how they get their way in many cases. The above is just a idle statement taken from countless observations of police behavior. Now, I have a few friends retired from and currently on the force. They are nice guys and not of the corrupt variety. (rambling...)
I dont see a reason to worry if you dont get caught and if you do, theres little use in trying to fight the charges until later in the process. I agree with the others in trying to gain entry legally.
MY own view on this is method of exploring. Every one has different methods of gaining entry to a property. Some choose to go the legal route, like contacting property owners and getting written permission before every entry. While others choose to get in, get photos, and get out without being noticed. I choose the second of these 2 examples. Your question of B&E vs trespassing only applies if caught, but until then I wouldnt worry about it. You might want to re-examine your entry methods if you are getting caught, worried about charges and what to do about the police.
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Axle
Location: Milton, ON
Gender: Male
Sieg oder Tod
| | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 7 on 9/21/2005 1:05 PM >
| | | | Yes, if you don't get caught there isn't a difference in the eye of the law. However there is still personal morals.
B&E in my view is when you have to force your way into a structure, pick a lock, break down a door, smash a window.
trespassing in my view is when you just walk in un-impeded, even an unlocked door can be opened with ease. Nothing got broken. ;)
Celer at Audax
Para la Victoria Siempre Alemanes! |
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wooble
Location: Surrey, UK
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 8 on 9/21/2005 3:13 PM >
| | | | In the UK, trespass is a civil offence, but 'reasonable force' may be used to evict you from the property by the owner or his representatives, and anybody may assist in evicting you. The police have no right to demand your details.
Aggravated trespass is committed if you trespass on land and disrupt, or intend to disrupt, ANY lawful activity taking place on that land, or adjacent land. Aggravated trespass is a criminal offence and carries a maximum sentence of 51 weeks jail plus fines.
A person is guilty of Burglary if he enters a building as a trespasser with intent to steal or inflict criminal damage. Breaking and entering does not have to be suspected, as that would be a separate offence of criminal damage. Sentencing is very variable, and is increased if the offence is committed: On occupied premises; At night; Professionally planned, organised or executed; Repeated visits to the same premises; If the offender was part of a group; If force was used or threatened. Burglary carries a maximum sentence of 10 years, plus fines.
A person is guilty of Criminal Damage if they destroy or damage without excuse any property belonging to another, intending to destroy of damage such property, or being reckless as to whether any such property would be destroyed or damaged. Criminal Damage carries a maximum sentence of 10 years plus fines.
Aggravated criminal damage occurs if the damage or intent to cause damage endangers or would endanger the life of another person. Aggravated criminal damage carried a maximum sentence of Life, plus fines.
Most of these crimes could fairly easily be applied to somebody exploring innocently without too much difficulty, seeing as carrying normal stuff like a penknife, leatherman etc. could be taken as intent to commit burglary or criminal damage.
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FyRePhReAk
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Gender: Male
disassociative
| | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 9 on 9/21/2005 3:23 PM >
| | | | the second your body crosses the threshold of a doorway, you are guilty of BnE.
BUT the wording of the law is such that you have to commit another indictable offense while breaking and entering to be charged with BnE.
BnE with intent to commit theft, destruction of property, and other felonious activity.
See that little souvenir in your pocket?
that upgrades the charges they can nail you with from petty trespass, to BnE and theft.
Walk away. |
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Viper
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada
Gender: Male
Trespassing On!
| | | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 10 on 9/21/2005 5:42 PM >
|  | | | Posted by FyRePhReAk
the second your body crosses the threshold of a doorway, you are guilty of BnE. |
Entering a building without moving a door, window, etc., does not constitute breaking and entering s348.(1) in the Canadian Criminal Code. However you could be charged with 'being unlawfully in dwelling-house' s349.(1), which doesn't require breaking but simply entering with further criminal intent for the charge to apply.
A while ago my law professor told me in theory, [in Canada] you can't be charged by simply entering a building. Canada has no specific charge for simply unlawfully 'entering' a building (except trespass at night which is a grey area). You must show additional criminal intent in combination with entering some place for a B&E charge to apply.
Your best bet is to be honest if you get caught. Tell the officer you were just curious and knew you shouldn't have been in there. Having a camera and other credibility with you also can help your situation.
Earth, the world's most dangerous planet!
"The will to do, the soul to dare." -Sir Walter Scott |
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RM
Location: Great Britain
Gender: Male
| | | | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 11 on 9/21/2005 11:02 PM >
| | | | Posted by wooble
The police have no right to demand your details.
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Well they may not have the right on the grounds of trespassing but they have every right to do a stop search of you your bags or your vehicle if you are caught on site.
I was caught on a recent trip to a HUGE power station by security, who then insisted on calling the police. I was searched for on the grounds of "going equiped" The whole incident was conducted on good terms, and they found nothing on us that we shouldnt have had...
while it may be different in other parts of the world in the UK providing you remain civil with the police and security and are not carrying anything incriminating you are unlikely to get worse than a stop search.
If you are caught it can often provide valuable information on how not to get caught next time... with nice lax uk trespassing laws theres always the option of trying again later...!
Now Online: www.industrialbritain.co.uk
www.abandoned-britain.com
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rainman8889
Location: H.T.S.F.C. Time to gain and a time to lose.
Bye for now.
| | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 12 on 9/22/2005 1:57 AM >
| | | | Posted by fatLouie
Keep in mind that security guards can't do anything.
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Actually, a security guard can have you charged for trespassing on behalf of the property owner and if they catch you doing damage to the property, can hold you for the police, again on behalf of the property owner. If as people often say the security guards can't do anything, then why are guards hired?
The best way is to get permission before going on the property. You would be surprised at what kind of pics you can get and quite a few guards are actually happy to show you around and point out pretty neat features.
[last edit 9/22/2005 2:05 AM by rainman8889 - edited 1 times]
Gone for a while. Be back when I'm back. |
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Disgrace
Location: Saint John, New Brunswick
| | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 13 on 9/22/2005 2:22 AM >
| | | | Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against legal site exploring... but I dunno, it's not strictly 'exploration' anymore if a security guard is showing you around. That's pretty much, y'know... tourism.
It's true enough that some people are in it mainly for the sights and the pictures they can take, but a lot(and I mean a lot) of people are in it for the sense of exploration into territory they aren't familiar with, and likely aren't supposed to be present in, and the risks and excitement that accompany that sort of setting.
I, personally, wouldn't have nearly as good a time trailing after a security guard and taking pictures of things he or she points out.
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what
Location: Texas
Gender: Male
RE - Rural Exploration
| | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 14 on 9/22/2005 5:52 PM >
| | | | here's what we have in Texas
Trespassing: 30.05 of the Texas Penal Code - http://www.bakers-...es.com/pc/3005.htm
Burglary (Breaking or Entering): The unlawful entry into a building or other structure with the intent to commit a felony or a theft. Forced entry is not a required element of the offense; it may be accomplished via an unlocked door or window, so long as the entry is unlawful (constituting a trespass). Included are attempts to commit burglary where force is employed, or where a perpetrator is frightened off while entering an unlocked door or climbing through an open window.
http://www.police....CW_definitions.htm
not being a lawyer, i'm not even going to try to explain any of that. just don't get caught, and if you do - play nice.
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David E
Location: San Francisco, CA
Gender: Male
Do not believe everything you see on TV.
| | | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 15 on 9/22/2005 6:07 PM >
| | | | Posted by fatLouie
Keep in mind that security guards can't do anything.
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In California (and many other states), a security guard (and yes, even a private citizen) can detain you using whatever force is neccessary (Calif. PC 837, 844, 845, 846, 847) including deadly when they witness you committing a felony, which B&E is. The law also gives the right of a security guard or citizen to search you for weapons.
The California Supreme Court (People vs. Daniel Lyon Thompson) has recently reaffirmed that anyone who is not a police official/officer may detain, arrest, search, and enter the residence to such.
So, a security guard can chase you home and 'break' into your house to 'arrest' you for a B&E. Be careful in what you do.
Just make sure you know your laws before you break them. Do not rely on someone else's word or you may end up in more trouble than you can get out of.
FREE THE UER 6! DOWN WITH UER LACKEYS! And to the mod that changed my sig, blow me! |
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Mike Dijital
 
UEDB Moderator
Location: Boston MA.
Gender: Male
UE ver. 1.0
| | | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 16 on 9/22/2005 6:52 PM >
| | | | HEre is the News story about my little bout with B&E / Trespassing
Story from Salem News: October 21 2004
'Urban explorer' admits trespassing at Danvers sites
By Julie Manganis
Staff writer
SALEM — Michael ******** says he's simply a history buff who likes to explore old buildings he considers to be endangered.
Danvers police say he's a trespasser who ignored earlier warnings to stay out of local buildings, including Danvers State Hospital
and the Holten-Richmond School. Yesterday, ********, 29, of ***., Danvers, admitted to charges of breaking and entering and
trespassing — charges filed after police discovered photos of ******** inside both buildings on a Web site called
abandonedspaces.net. He was fined $160. Prosecutors believe ******** is part of a subculture of "urban explorers" who break
into old buildings, rail tunnels and other structures and then document their visits, as ******** did on his now-defunct Web site.
An internet search revealed several sites in the United States and Europe that report on the practice.
Judge Dennis Healey was clearly puzzled by the case, however. "What was going on?" he asked ********. "I take pictures of
historic buildings," ******** explained, adding that he simply wanted to visit the Holten-Richmond School before it was
renovated. He contends he did not see the no-trespass signs and a gate in the fence was open. "At the time it didn't seem like a big
deal," ******** explained to the judge. But prosecutor Jesse Dole said that just weeks before his unauthorized visit to the school
construction site, ******** had been given a warning by police after he was found to be in the old Danvers State Hospital.
Despite that warning on April 1, Danvers police said they discovered new photos on ********'s site of him at the Holten-
Richmond School by April 29. In one photo, he is holding a magazine called "Infiltration."
Dole said the site also included ********'s description of the warning police had given him about staying out of buildings. That's
when they filed criminal charges. ******** has no prior record. If he stays out of trouble for six months, the breaking-and-
entering charge, the more serious of the two, will be dismissed.
www.deggi5.com / www.mikedijital.com |
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Krenta
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Nope, wasn't me.
| | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 17 on 9/23/2005 12:04 AM >
| | | | Posted by The Warden
It can differ from state to state. Here in MN, I believe that trespassing is usually a gross misdemeanor while B&E or even possession of B&E tools can be a felony. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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There is no "breaking and entering" charge in MN. Burglary, yes, but not B&E.
Trespassing is almost always a regular misdemeanor, not a gross mis. Burglary (MN Stat 609.582) runs the gamut from a gross misdemeanor to a felony, depending on the degree, which generally has to do with what kind of building it is, what you do in it, and what you do it with. To be quite frank, you'd have to be a real tool of an explorer to get convicted in MN of even burglary in the fourth degree, because of MN Statute 609.04.
Possession of burglary tools, being one who "has in possession any device, explosive, or other instrumentality with intent to use or permit the use of the same to commit burglary or theft" is a felony, MN Stat 609.59.
Have Speed Graphic, Will Travel. |
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totensiebush
Location: Berkeley, CA
Gender: Male
neophyte
| | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 18 on 9/23/2005 5:48 AM >
| | | | Posted by David E
In California (and many other states), a security guard (and yes, even a private citizen) can detain you using whatever force is neccessary (Calif. PC 837, 844, 845, 846, 847) including deadly when they witness you committing a felony, which B&E is. The law also gives the right of a security guard or citizen to search you for weapons.
The California Supreme Court (People vs. Daniel Lyon Thompson) has recently reaffirmed that anyone who is not a police official/officer may detain, arrest, search, and enter the residence to such.
So, a security guard can chase you home and 'break' into your house to 'arrest' you for a B&E. Be careful in what you do.
Just make sure you know your laws before you break them. Do not rely on someone else's word or you may end up in more trouble than you can get out of.
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Are you sure that use of deadly force is allowed to detain you if you do not attempt to fight back? In other words, if you are running away and they yell at you to stop, are they allowed to shoot you? Or are they required to use a lower level of force first?
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Pravus
Location: Chicago Area
Gender: Male
Now the two key words for tonight - "caution" and "flammable"...
| |  | | Re: Breaking and entering vs. Tresspassing
<Reply # 19 on 9/23/2005 6:09 AM >
| | | | Posted by Disgrace
I, personally, wouldn't have nearly as good a time trailing after a security guard and taking pictures of things he or she points out.
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I dunno.. In the sence of them showing you around like a tour I fully agree..
But actually stalking a guard and following a guard without thier knowledge could be an extremely large amount of fun (of course if they didn't catch you at least)
Would the cops charge you with both in hopes to get one to stick in court, or would they hafta pick one so as not to stack the charges? (or can these be stacked, because you really can't commit B&E without trespassing, so that just seems to me charging you for the same thing)
Live to Serve, Serve to Live.. |
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