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1 2 3   UER Forum > Archived UE Main > Ideals/principles of U.E (Viewed 778 times) Deadpan  Location: Interior of British Columbia Gender: Male I squat down and make an art at least once a day  |  Ideals/principles of U.E < on 12/8/2004 11:34 PM >   Before I saw this site I engaged in "U.E" as often as I could, I did not know however that it had a name, I just liked exploring places I was ignorant of any community existing until last year. I have since come to realize that many people hold many beliefs and ideals about how U.E should be conducted, And I just want to start a thread discussing people's own ethical do's and dont's while U.Eing Our forests die, the strangle hold that we put on the earth for gold will yet increase ten thousand fold and no one knows what for. Servo   |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 1 on 12/8/2004 11:42 PM >   I hope we can keep this civil. Any position is fine -- that's the point of the discussion -- but be warned that trolling/flaming will get deleted. My position... any means of entry is fine as long as you can put things back how you found them, and as secure as you found them. I only take things of which there are many and are not of high value -- e.g., a flyer from a pile of hundreds. If there's a good chance of my getting caught, I don't take anything. You can get in much more trouble than you would otherwise if you have anything on your person that belongs to the location. Others have different ethics. By no means should you assume mine are the "official" ethics of UER. [last edit 12/8/2004 11:45 PM by Servo - edited 1 times] oCtAnE  Location: TORONTO, CANADA Gender: Male EXPLORER AT LARGE  |  |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 2 on 12/9/2004 12:32 AM >   I pretty much have the same set of ideals as Servo, minus the taking things from sites. I have only taken something from a site once, due to the fact that the pile of papers from the 1930's was in the thousands easily, and I decided to save two for historical research purposes. -Octane FUELED BY OCTANE. Gatsby  Location: Minneapolis, MN Gender: Male Like all UER people, I've only explored your mom.  |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 3 on 12/9/2004 12:50 AM >   As long as everything is left the same way as I found it, I'm conscience-free. I only listen to 104.7 Poop. I'm always in deep shit, so I may as well listen to poop. Servo   |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 4 on 12/9/2004 2:11 AM >   Posted by Octane I pretty much have the same set of ideals as Servo, minus the taking things from sites. Yeah, just to be clear, this is something I've done I think once -- I don't think I've actually acted on that particular part of my schema for a long, long time. Hell, in one place I took a map because it helped me get around, and then put it back when I was done. A printed photograph of it works just as well as the real thing. BigPoppaMikey  This user has been banned. See the banlist page for more details. Location: Milpitas, California Gender: Male Don't follow me unless you want to...  |  |  |  |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 5 on 12/9/2004 2:26 AM >   Posted by Gatsby As long as everything is left the same way as I found it, I'm conscience-free. DITTO! Wishing I was Jack Dalton just to have all the cool leftovers... Skaught  Location: Calgary Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 6 on 12/9/2004 2:42 AM >   I hold myself to a very high standard of ethics while doing UE. No change to the site in any way. And I will not explore with others who do not feel the same way. Otherwise I can be prosecuted for their actions as well. I will also try hard to encourage others to leave only footprints. Some call me elitist for it as it could be considered evangelism. But in the interest of UE being sustainable for the long term it is the policy most likely to have a positive outcome. I have also learned that we must be selective about who we provide information about UE to. Many of those who would seek to damage what we love lack the motivation to find these places on their own. Not fool proof but certainly fool reduction. A serious explorer will not find it difficult to find the good stuff or fellow explorers. [last edit 12/9/2004 2:43 AM by Skaught - edited 1 times] If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) Deadpan  Location: Interior of British Columbia Gender: Male I squat down and make an art at least once a day  |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 7 on 12/9/2004 4:26 AM >   I use many means of entry but if I say pryed a door I nail it shut on my way out. I take things that wont last forever where they are ( documents/paper) For instance I have a "Cadence" shooting schedule and a "Perry mason" script from Mt.Lolo, I dont think that these items would survive so I felt alright taking them. Our forests die, the strangle hold that we put on the earth for gold will yet increase ten thousand fold and no one knows what for. Jester  Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada Gender: Male Always just out of sight...  |  |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 8 on 12/9/2004 4:40 AM >   Posted by Deadpan For instance I have a "Cadence" shooting schedule and a "Perry mason" script from Mt.Lolo, I dont think that these items would survive so I felt alright taking them. And in doing so, lessened the experience for others. That would have been interesting to find there... I found lots of rat shit. My ethics are pretty clear. I will only do things that do not alter the site to get in, the place has to be left exactly as it was when I got there. No stealing anything, no matter how small or rationalized to oneself. No tagging or vandalism of any sort. No exceptions. Anybody that wants to come along with me somewhere best understand that those rules are non negotiable. If they don't like them, they don't need to come with me. It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. Freak  Location: Usually Alaska, now MSP. Gender: Male Hypocrite  |  |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 9 on 12/9/2004 4:40 AM >   Everyone has a different perception of what UE is, and everyone has different ethics. Growing up I lived in a house built from salvaged lumber and regularly collected old mine and cannery artifacts, so you'd think I would be out there looting sites and stripping copper or something. When I first got online, some of the UE sites I found were all about tagging your handle/group name everywhere possible, and while I did do a bit of high-school-water-tower type graff, I soon outgrew that. Like Servo, I feel that removing obstacles to entry is OK, if they are replaced or returned. I still feel just fine taking things that are lying abandoned on the ground or in the ruins of a demolished/under destruction site (ex: nice knife that some GI dropped at a missile base), but I don't like to disturb anything that's part of a building or site, even if I really want it or could use it. I do borrow items sometimes and then return them after I'm done exploring (hard hats, bigass lights, etc). Your own background and upbringing influences what you believe is right and ethical, and I think it's a sign of maturity if you can hold yourself to a higher community-wide standard of ethics. It may be for the reason that those ethics are "better" or stronger than yours, or simply that following them will protect the activity/group (such as radio enthusiasts following their own club's rules, or geocacher's following a set of rules and ethics to preserve the activity). Turn off the internet and go play outside. http://spamusement...hp/comics/view/137 Servo   |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 10 on 12/9/2004 4:57 AM >   Posted by Freak Your own background and upbringing influences what you believe is right and ethical, and I think it's a sign of maturity if you can hold yourself to a higher community-wide standard of ethics. It may be for the reason that those ethics are "better" or stronger than yours, or simply that following them will protect the activity/group (such as radio enthusiasts following their own club's rules, or geocacher's following a set of rules and ethics to preserve the activity). Freak's said something really insightful here that I'd hope would come into the discussion and not be shouted down. While there is no official ethical standard for the community at large (and I don't mean just UER here, I mean anyone doing UE that is aware there is a community), there is a de facto standard that is agreed upon by most people in the community. I see this is as a good thing -- it holds together the community, it gives us all something to point to when we're asked "What is Urban Exploration?" A lot of people will accuse me of taking things too seriously on this subject, but considering we're doing real-life stuff, with real-life consequences I don't think it is anything to take lightly. We're heading for another debate. Debates are healthy if they stay as debates, with both sides presenting arguments in a logical consistent manner. I think we're all capable of doing that, and that's what I hope to see here. [last edit 12/9/2004 4:57 AM by Servo - edited 1 times] The Hitman's Daughter  Account Closed Location: ottawa, canada Gender: Female hot pavement.  |  |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 11 on 12/9/2004 5:34 AM >   I don't break anything. I leave the place the way it is when I arrived. Treat things with respect. If I had to force my way in somewhere, say, by prying open a door or window, I would close it again after I left. When I was younger I did things like ride wheelchairs down a flight of stairs, and mess around with shit, I have stolen signs and other random things. I kind of grew out of that though, and I'm at a stage now where I can appreciate abandoned buildings for what they are, instead of being an ass. I haven't stolen anything since I was young, either. I don't know if I ever would steal anything now. If a building was being demolished and something very interesting was inside, I might take it. You could always contact the owner of the property and ask if you could have the thing, but then they'd just be wondering what the hell you were doing in their building in the first place, so.. I don't know about that. I'm on the fence when it comes to things like that. richellesart.com From now on and until the end of time, "Hip To Be Square" will conjure images of bloody bodies being hacked apart with axes. Deadpan  Location: Interior of British Columbia Gender: Male I squat down and make an art at least once a day  |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 12 on 12/9/2004 6:24 AM >   And in doing so, lessened the experience for others. That would have been interesting to find there... I found lots of rat shit.-Jester Jester I see your point but I found the script and schedules after you explored the place seeing your pics on your site prompted me to make my first visit to Mt.Lolo since I was 14. I found the shooting schedule in the admin building just past the gate across from the second barracks and the script in a box of mineral exploration reports in a garage. My point is with your method of U.E (no forced entry ever) you never would have seen this stuff anyway. Im not knocking your method I just think you miss alot I mean you guys didnt see much. And we explored the whole base (minus laundromat and large metal sided garage). I only take paper for the most part as It wont last so long and not as many will enjoy it. We left all the signs that said the base was in germany intact and anything else of interest was never moved. Our forests die, the strangle hold that we put on the earth for gold will yet increase ten thousand fold and no one knows what for. aronburn  Location: Michigan Gender: Male  |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 13 on 12/9/2004 6:26 AM >   My group of friends all agree that we draw the line at changing anything to enter a building, I.E. breaking a window, prying plywood off a door, or kicking a door in. To us this is one of the few things that separate us from vandals and the normal idea of teenagers (which I'll admit sums us up pretty well at times). Plus one teammate in particular will ALWAYS find a way in(even if it means bodily harm to me ) for example, we had driven 45 minutes on one of our days off to check out a hunch I had and after checking the entire building 3 times we still couldn’t find a non-destructive way in. So in a last ditch effort we split into 2 groups of 2 and walked the building again, he eventually found a ledge with a window over it which we thought maybe open. Being the tallest and the only one who can do pull ups, I got the privilege of standing on a railing and pulling myself up 14' (above the ground) and then pull everybody else up. We could have easily gotten a crowbar and opened a boarded window but to us finding a way in is a puzzle or a mind game; someone got in at one point, we have to be able to as well. Its one of the most rewarding parts of the infiltration to us, to be able to break the rules with our brains not just with a crowbar. We don't take things from sites, period, end of discussion for us. As the only serious photographer in our group I sometimes get the *stuck behind the lens* feeling like I'm focusing too much on the details and in order to tell the story of a place I have to be able to step back, take a breath. Because of this I obviously get a different perspective on things while UEing and in life in general. As always this comes back to why I enjoy UE; I love the history of a place, so many peoples memories are lost in a place that can be very impersonal, like a hospital or an office building, so in order to save as much of those memories as possible I need every little item, personal or otherwise that can tell me about a place, time, person, or feeling. I feel that I was given a chance that most people will never get, or for that matter even know they didn’t get, to see this unknown history. I feel that it’s my job and my privilege to share it with other people who would otherwise be left in the dark. If I’m given the chance to share something through my eyes then I hope someone else can be as lucky, and when they do get that chance I want them to have every little shred of information, every little detail that I was given. Deadpan  Location: Interior of British Columbia Gender: Male I squat down and make an art at least once a day  |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 14 on 12/9/2004 6:36 AM >   Our group always debates setting up a website and showing everyone our photos and film, But in the end we decided we may cause more damage to a site by making more destructive people aware of it. Our forests die, the strangle hold that we put on the earth for gold will yet increase ten thousand fold and no one knows what for. Skaught  Location: Calgary Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 15 on 12/9/2004 7:22 AM >   Posted by Jester And in doing so, lessened the experience for others. That would have been interesting to find there... I found lots of rat shit. My ethics are pretty clear. I will only do things that do not alter the site to get in, the place has to be left exactly as it was when I got there. No stealing anything, no matter how small or rationalized to oneself. No tagging or vandalism of any sort. No exceptions. Anybody that wants to come along with me somewhere best understand that those rules are non negotiable. If they don't like them, they don't need to come with me. Yup, it just aint worth it. Taking anything, no matter how small can change a simple "don't go there" warning to an arrest for petty theft. The laws in Canada are all geared toward intent. Hence why trespass in and of itself is not a big deal and B&E is not what many think it is. We are explorers not collectors. I do not even take stuff from demo sites. I did it a time ago in my past and would not ever again. It is simply not my thing and makes everything simpler. I leave those type of calls up to the explorer. Jester and I are on the same page on plenty of things. Just seems to be an oil and water thing right now. My memory of Mount lolo is apparently a bit faulty but we did see about as much as you did when we went with Jester. [last edit 12/9/2004 7:25 AM by Skaught - edited 1 times] If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) Mark  Very Noble Donor Location: South Carolina Gender: Male What is a lion, king of the savannah, when hes at the south pole?  |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 16 on 12/9/2004 7:44 AM >   I guess I'll post my thoughts on Graffiti since this looks like its going to be a who steals thread. I sometimes love graffiti. It really depends on the artist and where. Drains are the best place for graffiti in my opinion. Not only does it not destroy a site such as a building but adds to the experience of a tunnel that goes on forever. I bought a can of silver spray paint a while back in the hopes of adding a little poem or thing inside a tunnel. I never did accomplish it and will never draw due to my inability to be artsy. Some buildings seem to be enhanced as well, although only in certain areas. "If the threat level goes up its probably because of me." "I am looking for a girl who enjoys headbutting beltbuckles" Skaught  Location: Calgary Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 17 on 12/9/2004 7:56 AM >   I personally do not graf but I have found lots of very fun stuff underground. For example http://uea.ca/view....php?article_id=12 If you ever come to Calgary then email [email protected] and you'll be made welcome, taken to locations and given free accommodation. We'll help save you the $$$ you spend on the flight over here :) White Rabbit  Women's Advocate Location: Missouri Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 18 on 12/9/2004 8:10 AM >   Eh, I'm pretty much the "never take anything" type, although it's as much because little souvenirs like that don't appeal to me as it is that I don't want to steal. But I've never thought any less of people who take reasonable souvenirs from a site, I just don't really want to myself. However, I'm probably going to have to break my own rules pretty soon. Facing a situation where there's a 19th century property that's fixing to be leveled with machinery and then have a subdivision put upon it. There's nothing really there that will matter, except the buildings themselves. Except... On that property, is a concrete cornerstone with the name of the place on it. It kills me to think of that thing getting bulldozed. And I know it will, too, because I'm the only one who knows where it's half-buried in the dirt. So, I'm probably going to nab that thing. I'll feel guilty, even though I know it's going to be destroyed if I don't, but I'm going to do it anyway I guess. Underground Ozarks http://www.undergroundozarks.com Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Kansas Jester  Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada Gender: Male Always just out of sight...  |  |  Re: Ideals/principles of U.E <Reply # 19 on 12/9/2004 3:51 PM >   Posted by Deadpan Jester I see your point but I found the script and schedules after you explored the place seeing your pics on your site prompted me to make my first visit to Mt.Lolo since I was 14. I found the shooting schedule in the admin building just past the gate across from the second barracks and the script in a box of mineral exploration reports in a garage. My point is with your method of U.E (no forced entry ever) you never would have seen this stuff anyway. Im not knocking your method I just think you miss alot I mean you guys didnt see much. I'm pretty sure we were in every building but one of the barracks, because it was the same as the other barracks and Skaught and I both had weird killer headaches and felt like hell... But nobody spotted those things... If you mean *forced entry* by breaking anything or leaving something differently than it was when I got there, you're right. But if you mean forced as in taking out screws and replacing them when I leave or things like that, then you're wrong. I'm pretty sure I was inside the buildings you didn't get into... of course you'd never know it, because I leave things as they were when I got there. I wasn't slagging you for taking the papers, but making you realize that it does make a difference. Most profoundly on any charges if you happen to be caught. To me, that makes it a no brainer. It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. UER Forum > Archived UE Main > Ideals/principles of U.E (Viewed 778 times) 1 2 3   All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire. 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