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 The Photomat
   
 |  |  | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 20 on 12/9/2004 5:30 PM >
|  | | | Posted by aronburn
My group of friends all agree that we draw the line at changing anything to enter a building, I.E. breaking a window, prying plywood off a door, or kicking a door in. To us this is one of the few things that separate us from vandals and the normal idea of teenagers |
I bit off topic, but this is where the relationship between UE'ers and vandals gets interesting. For example; a building gets boarded up tight, and some UE'ers will not break in, unless there is an open door or window. A vandal will break a window or pry off boards to get in, leaving the place wide open. So do the vandals sometimes help us get into these places? What if there were no vandals, would we get into some of these places at all?
[Fixed quote tags - Servo]
[last edit 12/9/2004 6:41 PM by Servo - edited 1 times]
Photography Site: http://www.thephotomat.ca
Flickr: http://www.flickr....hotos/thephotomat/
DK Photogroup: http://www.dkphotogroup.com/ |
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Mike Dijital
       
UEDB Moderator
Location: Boston MA.
Gender: Male
UE ver. 1.0
| | | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 21 on 12/9/2004 7:14 PM >
| | | | I do what ever I want when I want.
Thats my Ideals/principles of U.E
www.deggi5.com / www.mikedijital.com |
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Freak
Location: Usually Alaska, now MSP.
Gender: Male
Hypocrite
| | | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 22 on 12/9/2004 8:58 PM >
| | | | Sometimes I'll take steps to fix damage done by vandals. If I can secure a site a little better than when I arrived, it helps keep the punk kids out (well, briefly anyway), and usually doesn't affect my access. If it's something historically significant that I feel would be destroyed or threatened if it was accessible, I might let the owner know about the problem.
On one occasion I encountered a door that had been 90% opened/smashed by vandals. I removed the hinges and the whole thing fell apart rather than opening (oops). Since I couldn't get it resecured, and the area behind it turned out to have expensive stuff stored there, I dropped an anonymous note to the property owner about it. I don't know if the door and what was behind it got secured after that, but I do know that the rest of the site was incompetantly boarded and left accesible to explorers.
Turn off the internet and go play outside.
http://spamusement...hp/comics/view/137 |
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Kay O. Sweaver
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Gender: Male
Happiness is saying yes more often than no.
| | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 23 on 12/9/2004 11:15 PM >
| | | | Graffitti to me is as interesting and valuable as historical documents, it tells part of a place's history and I appreciate it very much. In drains I'll tag because as (I forget your name green pic guy) said it can make things sooooo much more interesting. In fact there's something I like about an artistic masterpiece hidden beneath the city streets, perhaps only seen by a dozen people.
Buildings and other sites are more difficult, but I'll leave indicators of my presence for the benefit of future explorers. In these cases its usually something very subtle, subdued and harmless like a business card or a message on a chalk board or a note in an abandonned hotel guestbook. We found a message from other explorers in an old phone book in a long abandonned YMCA which I found incredibly cool - evidence that we weren't the first. The note even said; "Please don't remove. Leave this for future visitors to find." Its just too bad there was no contact information.
In terms of site entry I'm not adverse to using some muscle, but never causing any permanent damage. Removing boards, screws, bending bars, that sort of thing is fine if it can be fixed afterwards. I don't even have a problem with fence cutting if you reseal it behind you (which is easy to do with chain link). 95% of the time though you can get into someplace without having to resort to such methods, it just requires some ingenuity and effort, which frankly is part of the joy and challenge of UE.
Drug/Alcohol use is something that hasn't come up yet surprisingly. I'll quote from my UEA profile. In fact my whole ethical system is fairly well summarized there (http://www.uea.ca/...104030fabfc65cdd9f);
As a general rule I think its best to remain sober while engaging in UE. Things can be potentially dangerous and its important to have a clear head. That being said I'll have a couple of beers before a mission on occassion and even more rarely a puff of a joint. I'll only do that if I'm going to a location that I know well and feel is safe and am going with people that I feel very secure exploring with. I don't like babysitting people who are on drugs or alcohol so its a pretty rare occurrance that I'll explore under the influence or with others who are.
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Amy Smith is an infected slut |
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GotPaisley!
Location: Lost.
Gender: Female
Exploring Gypsy!
| | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 24 on 12/9/2004 11:34 PM >
| | | | It truly depends the person involved. I don't believe that there is a right or wrong way to UE. As long as you respect the property that you are exploring. Don't ruin or destroy the property. I don't see anything wrong. I don't care other peoples beliefs are as long as they don't affect me. There is no right or wrong answer. If you don't like what an another explorer is doing then just don't explore with the person again. Take yourself out of a situation that makes you feel uncomfortable. We are not here to judge. If you really think about it... No one should be there in the first place.
There must be quite a few things a hot bath won't cure, but I don't know any of them.
~Sylvia Plath, The Bell Jar
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west_end_chud
Location: West End, St. Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male
| | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 25 on 12/10/2004 3:00 AM >
| | | | Explorers should never do anything to ruin the experience for other explorers.
By Graffiti, or petty stealing you only alert authorities and or unsympathetic individuals to the fact that the site is being explored.
Telling others of how you gained access is nearly as bad as telling the authorities. I know that we all have cool friends, but we all undoubtedly know people who are not cool, as do people we might tell about an UE site. I make it a policy to only tell the immediate friends of whom I intend to explore a site with about possible entrances into a UE site. I also swear them to not disclosing the site as a condition of their involvement on any exploration I suggest. Besides that, A great deal of the excitement of discovering an entrance is knowing that you did it without any help from someone else. This can be an individual or team achievement, but should not be some tip dropped to you by a separate group or individual.
We have to take this very seriously, as the authorities are unrightfully taking things more seriously. I do not want to read a post about people being locked up, deported, or killed, because of paranoia.
If you are not respectful of other explorer’s rights, than please stay the fuck home. We do not need you endangering ourselves and perpetuating negative images of our activities.
On a side note, I always bring authentic identification with me while exploring. I try to avoid contact with authorities when possible, but running, and or trying to duck a trespass ticket by not having identification will most likely bring more hardship than rewards. Security guards and utility workers will be a lot more likely to discuss things with you if you are open and honest about your non destructive intentions.
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Kay O. Sweaver
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Gender: Male
Happiness is saying yes more often than no.
| | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 26 on 12/10/2004 4:03 AM >
| | | | If you go back to the start of the thread there was a wise suggestion that we state our own personal ideals/principles and didn't pass judgement on others because it will only lead to flame wars. Oops. If anyone feels the urge to respond to West End CHUD's post with a flame, take a deep breath and count to four.
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Amy Smith is an infected slut |
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aronburn
Location: Michigan
Gender: Male
| | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 27 on 12/10/2004 4:12 AM >
| | | | Posted by west_end_chud
Explorers should never do anything to ruin the experience for other explorers.
Telling others of how you gained access is nearly as bad as telling the authorities.
...knowing that you did it without any help from someone else. This can be an individual or team achievement, but should not be some tip dropped to you by a separate group or individual.
If you are not respectful of other explorer’s rights, than please stay the fuck home. We do not need you endangering ourselves and perpetuating negative images of our activities.
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Well now that we have YOUR opinion we can all go safely explore. Seriously though I agree with most of what you said but you may not realise how conceded you sounded, next time you might want to tone it down abit.
Posted by west_end_chud
On a side note, I always bring authentic identification with me while exploring.
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A very Legitimate point, our group recently changed from carrying no ID to everyone having something with them just in case. I think police in particular will be far more forgiving if you have ID with you rather than having to check your story out further.
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Servo
| | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 28 on 12/10/2004 4:14 AM >
| | | | Just to be completely clear -- I don't care about people DISCUSSING ethics, I care about people flinging shit around like so many monkeys when the discussions get out of hand. It's not productive, and that's what I hope won't happen here. So far we seem to be doing ok...
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Control
Location: NYC, All day every day.
Because it's expected
| | | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 29 on 12/10/2004 4:34 AM >
| | | | I wish the ethics threads would go away as it is a personal decision everyone needs to make (how to or how not to act while exploring).
Asking questions just leads to answers, which lead to more questions, and I'm not gunna fall into that trap... not today at least.
The Zoo York Goon Squad.
If it looks good, Loot it. |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 30 on 12/10/2004 4:37 AM >
|  | | | Most people have some pride in their personal choices and don't have a problem discussing them. Whether I agree with a person's or not (as in the case with some things mike D does for instance) I still respect the person that can stand up and be honest in the face of opposition to what they say.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Kay O. Sweaver
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Gender: Male
Happiness is saying yes more often than no.
| | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 31 on 12/11/2004 2:19 AM >
| | | | I always make it a point to listen to peoples' ideas and views on topics that are important to me, particularly if their views are different from mine. I am always prepared to consider alternative viewpoints and I think that defending my own viewpoint is an important way for me to reaffirm or question my beliefs. If someone stumps me with their argument, instead of yelling "Well you're an idiot!" I stop and consider whether my viewpoint is actually flawed.
If you never change your mind, your views or your ideas, you've stopped learning. If you've stopped learning you might as well die.
Debate on. Just don't call each other idiots. Please.
==========================
Amy Smith is an infected slut |
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Deadpan
Location: Interior of British Columbia
Gender: Male
I squat down and make an art at least once a day
| | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 32 on 12/11/2004 11:36 PM >
| | | | If you mean *forced entry* by breaking anything or leaving something differently than it was when I got there, you're right. But if you mean forced as in taking out screws and replacing them when I leave or things like that, then you're wrong. I'm pretty sure I was inside the buildings you didn't get into... of course you'd never know it, because I leave things as they were when I got there.
I wasn't slagging you for taking the papers, but making you realize that it does make a difference. Most profoundly on any charges if you happen to be caught. To me, that makes it a no brainer.- Jester
Jester we seem to use some of the same methods of entry We most often remove screws/nails whatever to get in but we wont hesitate to pry a door off, When we leave we reseal the door. We never explored the laundromat because some of the windows were open and we could see all of the nothing from the comfort of outside, the metal sided garage we left alone because we did not have the tools to take apart the hinges and since the door was locked and not boarded shut we did not want to rip it off its hinges with a winch. The building had no windows and only the large garage door and the locked side door offered entry.
So unless you removed replaced and regreased those hinges I dont think you saw that one, But if I can scrounge a picture and you recognise the garage as one you have been in would you tell me what was in it? I dont have a clue. Also did you check out the boiler room or get any decent pictures? Also dont worry about slagging my posts I started this thread to hear other peoples perspectives on this, So dont worry I dont take offense I doubt you mean me any ill will.
[last edit 12/11/2004 11:38 PM by Deadpan - edited 1 times]
Our forests die, the strangle hold that we put on the earth for gold will yet increase ten thousand fold and no one knows what for. |
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west_end_chud
Location: West End, St. Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male
| | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 33 on 12/12/2004 12:41 AM >
| | | | I apologize to all, I was not trying to be inflammatory.
I truly have no more right to be in these places than any other criminal.
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Plytheman
Location: Lawrence, Massachusetts
Obey The Deer
| |  | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 34 on 12/12/2004 6:45 PM >
| | | | As long as the entrance I make can be put back together to a reasonable extent I'll open shit up.
As far as taking souvenirs, I admit I've taken things before. I avoid taking things because it does take away interest from the rooms but if I find something tucked away in a corner or generally out of sight then I'll take it. Like the sign I found in the back corner under a pile of other signs in the dark office in the basement of a factory or the safety harness from said factory (which I used to climb the stack out front). So if its out of sight or something I need and would otherwise have to pay for then I dont mind taking things every once in a while.
I'm achin, I'm shakin, I'm breakin, Like Humans Do!!
-Byrne |
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Karnov
Location: New Brunswick
Gender: Male
| | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 35 on 12/13/2004 2:33 AM >
| | | | Posted by Mad McCarthy
...the safety harness from said factory (which I used to climb the stack out front)...
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Haha, I had the funniest thought as I read this:
MAD: "hey look, a harness!"
-examines-
MAD: "hey look, a smokestack!"
-looks back at harness-
MAD: "I just had a great idea! I'll use this old harness from this abandoned factory to climb that rickety stack!"
-*groans* from friends who get out the cell and call 911-
aaah... seriously, how did that go?
Ab asino lanam |
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Plytheman
Location: Lawrence, Massachusetts
Obey The Deer
| | | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 36 on 12/13/2004 4:15 PM >
| | | | Only went about halfway up because I couldn't see the top and I felt like I was making no headway (it was dark out), my ropes were pissing me off and it was a tedious system of locking in, and the harness wasn't fitting right...
The harness wouldn't adjust because it was old and the the nylon bands hadn't been moved in a few years.... that and little did I know till I got home that I was wearing the harness backwards...
We had intended on climbing it regardless, but I figured the full body harness was better than the rock climbing one I had brought, made more for the job.
I'm achin, I'm shakin, I'm breakin, Like Humans Do!!
-Byrne |
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MothMan
Noble Donor
Location: The Gem City
Gender: Male
If you didn't bring back any pictures with you then you obviously weren't there!
| | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 37 on 12/13/2004 9:32 PM >
| | | | Our aim is simple. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, should be able to easily tell we were there.
We don't damage the place.
We don't jack the artifacts.
We don't publicize how to get in.
We don't like to get caught.
We don't encourage others to be any different.
We don't look down our noses if you ARE different, but draw the line as far as you coming with us.
This keeps us outta trouble. It's personal. This is my hobby, and I intend to preserve it.
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Ninjalicious
Gone, but always with us
Location: Toronto
| | | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 38 on 12/17/2004 12:26 AM >
|  | | | I agree that it's a pretty useful thing to talk and debate about ethics every now and then. It helps people get more sure of where they stand, so that they're able to act based on their ethics rather than shaping their ethics around their actions, which is what I think the vast majority of people do.
It can also make you rethink things you're pretty sure about, which can also be an improvement, if your outlook is too rigid. Personally I really like just having a blanket rule that says "never take anything ever", but on the other hand I would find it awfully hard to condemn White Rabbit for rescuing that unappreciated cornerstone he described. So maybe I'll leave off the "ever" and just let it stand at "never take anything".
Ninj
http://www.infiltration.org
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MothMan
Noble Donor
Location: The Gem City
Gender: Male
If you didn't bring back any pictures with you then you obviously weren't there!
| | Re: Ideals/principles of U.E
<Reply # 39 on 12/17/2004 2:07 PM >
| | | | Posted by White Rabbit
Except... On that property, is a concrete cornerstone with the name of the place on it. It kills me to think of that thing getting bulldozed. And I know it will, too, because I'm the only one who knows where it's half-buried in the dirt. So, I'm probably going to nab that thing. I'll feel guilty, even though I know it's going to be destroyed if I don't, but I'm going to do it anyway I guess.
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Do it. There's nothing wrong with saving that thing and preserving it any way you see fit.
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