I recently went to an abandoned furniture store and found a few homeless people living there. They turned out to be friendly but I can't shake the thought of them being hostile and wanting to hurt me.. I was alone and I just feel like I should have some form of protection. Is pepper spray see as a better alternative/less of a penalty if caught with it? I live in California if that helps law-wise.

I can't speak on the efficacy of one over the other, since I've never been in a situation where I've needed to, plus I'm a rookie. But as for the blade law in California, fixed blade knives under 4 inches can be open carried, but not concealed. If you care for defense, those are probably your best bet. If you can't stand the thought of open carrying a knife, use a non-locking folding knife, there's little restriction on those for concealed carry in Cali.

At the end of the day, wits is the best self defense. Fighting homeless people isn't fun.

Leatherman

Well, without sounding too Blackhawkish, I think of a knife as something used up close. I would be wanting to keep my distance as much as I can during any possible kerfuffle. Also unless you know how to use a knife in an altercation, you should not pull a knife in an altercation.

My slight experience with pepper spray is that it tends to have an effect on the area, I'd believe that if I set it off, particularly in a smallish enclosed area, that I would be affected as well? Then I would probably knock myself out running into a wall to get out of there.

Do you carry a tripod? That has always been my plan if I ever needed something to dissuade an antagonist.

Of course, if there is any concern, avoidance is best.

I think you sort of got your answer from this experience. There's probably nothing wrong with having a knife of some kind in your bag, but you're probably only ever going to use it as a tool rather than a weapon.

Posted by selectedgrub Leatherman

If you run into one of those guys, throw them some poppers.

I carry a spring assisted folder with me everywhere, and have for 30+ years. It's a tool, not a weapon. My state has laws on blade length, and mine is indeed illegal. BUT - having several cops in my family, I know that regardless of the legality of your blade, if a cop wants it - they'll take it. And even if legal, they can still charge you for concealment. In my minimal inactions with Police, since I was not a disrespectful turd, they didn't care. It has been taken from me for their safety while we interacted, which is reasonable, but returned to me in the end. I have NEVER been cited for it, ever. Even when I had an incident of "sleep driving" (while it was prescribed, I'll NEVER take any form of sleeping pill EVER again), when I went to pick up my vehicle the next day, there was my pocket knife - in the passenger footwell. It was noted in the Police report - the cop took it from my pocket, parked my car, and tossed my blade on the floor. There are 100% asshole cops out there, but more often than not if you're not an entitled disrespectful asshole to them, you're going to have a much better day.

As far as the weapon side goes, not once. Ever. Aggressive homeless, mentally unstable, and tweakers couldn't care less about your knife. It won't even slow them down. Don't forget they have nothing to lose. Plus - they probably have one too. Even the nutbars fear the same things you do. If you can't talk your way out of a confrontation, walk away. If you can't walk, run. If you can't run fast enough, drop your bag. 99% of the time, they'll stop and grab it, and there's nothing in there worth scuffling with a HIV+, Hep C+, frothing at the mouth rabies ridden nut job.

Prevention goes a LOOOOONG way to avoid any interaction. Announce yourself. Let them know your intentions, and you have no concerns or intertest in them, their stuff, or the space they may have claimed as their own. If they tell you to GTFO, GTFO! They move around frequently - come back a few weeks later, they'll probably be gone. Cigarettes, booze, a couple singles, or even a cheeseburger will calm even the most savage beast. But, never forget - just because your offering appeased them, you still need to watch your back. Leave your wallet in the car. Carry only your ID and a couple of bucks. Every room you enter, every corner you turn, have an exit strategy.

ALWAYS be prepared for the worse. Go ahead carry your knife or pepper spray if they make you feel safer. I know damn well I will 100% use my knife in self-defense if I have to. BUT... You and I both will probably never need the blade or pepper spray. In 40yrs of exploring, I've given up the few bucks, booze, smokes, and cheeseburgers. I have run. I have had the "phew... that was close". One guy that was ALWAYS present and watching some grain silos he occupied, I ended up gifting a $40 tent. Turned out to be a real nice guy. The crazy flailing arms "I'm gonna cut you" routine was all an act - and it worked well. In the end that knife has never come out of my pocket. It's a tool, not a weapon.

I wouldn't carry a knife as a main self defense tool. You live in California, and self defense involving knife wounds is pretty hard to justify and you might just get yourself into more trouble. Carry pepper spray with the intent of getting as far away from the aggressor as possible, instead of carrying a knife with an intention of getting up and close with the guy. Both aren't going to end well for you and the guy if you want to go all Rambo with him. I like to carry POM pepper spray (the one that has a pocket clip). I've used it once outdoors with little crosswind and it didn't blow back in my face. Pepper gel can help combat the backfiring if you live in windy environments

I would probably carry pepper spray in gel form instead. Last thing you want is the knife taken from you and used against you if you aren’t well trained with it. Pepper spray on the other hand maintains a slight distance and sucks so bad to get hit with. Reason I would use the gel or stream type is to prevent getting it in your eyes. There are several factors you need to take into consideration with using the fogger type. Also I’d consider spraying yourself to know how it feels. Maybe not completely, but at least a little bit.

If it were me I would bring the pepper spray. It’s more of a defensive tool.

Obviously I'm involved in a specialty aspect of UE. I always carry two items when I am out exploring; a handheld flashlight and an assisted opening pocket knife. To be clear, I view a knife as a tool rather than a weapon in my situation.

A knife is especially important to me when I'm on rope. As an example, if I'm rappelling down into a shaft and my shirt, hair, or a strap get tangled into the descender, I may have to cut them free. I need to be able to get the knife, open it, and cut myself free one-handed.

I've had a couple of instances when my shirt or a loose strap got caught, but never so bad that I have to cut it away. That said, the risk of getting tangled in this environment compels me to keep a knife with me.

Abby Normal

Posted by Steed I think you sort of got your answer from this experience. There's probably nothing wrong with having a knife of some kind in your bag, but you're probably only ever going to use it as a tool rather than a weapon.

This. A pocket knife is pretty useful in day to day life. A Bowie knife, hunting knife or Ka-bar can be useful in the right circumstances depending on what you need to cut - but a fight is probably not them for most of us.

The unhoused folks in or near the place you're exploring will almost always show you the same respect you show them; getting into a scuffle is just not a concern unless you're looking for a scuffle. Any gear or other items of questionable legality you may be carrying only become a problem if/when you are being patted down by cops. They look specifically for items that can be construed as intent to commit a crime or escalate minor charges into bigger charges. A harmless warning could become an arrest if they find the wrong thing in your pockets.

Homeless people are still people, just like you. Any apprehensions about territorial violent tweakers are more social stigma than anything, and the more you explore the more quickly you'll grow out of that. I think being wise is more about having a good sense of the people around you than having the biggest stick or the sharpest knife. Stay safe out there!

You and I aren't going to win any fights with a knife. I would view a knife fight as follows:

Winner bleeds to death in an ambulance
Loser bleeds to death in the abandonment

As far as threatening with a knife, well in America that is a great way to get shot. It's someone's home. Say hi, be polite, and go on about the day.

For the most part, I don't carry any knives or tools when exploring.

Now, when I start doing mine sites, that changes... I carry extra gear for those in case of emergency. Usually have at least a leatherman and a gut-hook knife on my belt loop when underground.

I mostly have some small explosives that cant do much harm. Thats working for scaring people most of the time and you can throw them so you can keep a safe distance. But its never wrong to bring a small knife for cutting away annoying plants.

Posted by Archer For the most part, I don't carry any knives or tools when exploring. Now, when I start doing mine sites, that changes... I carry extra gear for those in case of emergency. Usually have at least a leatherman and a gut-hook knife on my belt loop when underground.

👍👍 I go for years without needing some of my back-up gear and start to feel silly for packing it around, then I'm deep underground and someone's light goes out, or they need a knife to cut something. Underground is an unforgiving environment.

Abby Normal

I see it as a tool and not a weapon. Taser or something similar would be better if you are looking for self defense. When carrying it you need to be prepared to use it and if you aren’t comfortable using it (to enter in a less than legal fashion) don’t carry it because it can make things slightly worse with law enforcement. With that being said I’ve started using a leather man as it’s more useful for entry (getting in but also while inside).

Posted by Gauge- I see it as a tool and not a weapon. Taser or something similar would be better if you are looking for self defense. When carrying it you need to be prepared to use it and if you aren’t comfortable using it (to enter in a less than legal fashion) don’t carry it because it can make things slightly worse with law enforcement. With that being said I’ve started using a leather man as it’s more useful for entry (getting in but also while inside).

You also have to check your states laws regarding tasers and pepper spray. Every state is different. You could be charged with unlawful possession for just having it. NJ it is legal to carry a taser and pepper spray for self defense, but the PS can not exceed a certain size. That charge will be worse than the trespassing one.

Knives can be used against you legally; I would recommend pepper spray and to always travel in a group. It is always wise to do urban exploration with atleast one friend. Most groups travel in no more than 4 people, as travelling with too many people can make it much easier to get caught.