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 DSM2nr203
 
Location: Saratoga Springs, NY
Gender: Male
 |  |  | Stealing or salvaging
< on 10/20/2003 8:17 PM >
|  | | | I was thinking about this today in school. Suppose you were at a building that was to be demolished in a few days and they already cleared it out. Ok, now lets say you look around and you find something fairly valuable(like an old generator or piece of equipment), and you know the people arent coming back to get it. Would you take that piece of equipment? If you do, then technically your stealing it(even though no one wants it), and if you dont it just gonna goto waste. Ive been thinking about this for a little while and was wondering what you guys have to say about the matter
[last edit 10/20/2003 8:18 PM by DSM2nr203 - edited 1 times]
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nightshadow
Location: Western PA
Gender: Male
Simpsons FTW. Anyhow...
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 1 on 10/20/2003 8:39 PM >
|  | | | This's been mentioned at least twice, but i don't know which threads. The general idea is not to take anything, whether the building will be destroyed or not.
The idea is still the same about the same, whether its
"the building is going to be torn down tomorrow, so nobody'll miss this", "the building's abandoned and will probably be torn down some time, so nobody will notice", or even "the building has been empty for years, who cares about anything in it."
You might want to search for the whole thread.
"One only needs two tools in life: WD-40 to make things go, and duct tape to make them stop."
"That only works in movies, you idiot." |
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Freak
   
Location: Usually Alaska, now MSP.
Gender: Male
Hypocrite
| |  | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 2 on 10/20/2003 8:46 PM >
| | | | In such a situation I'd consider it salvaging, but my views are based on what I learned growing up. In rural Alaska you don't want to waste anything, so salvaging is an accepted practice (most my house is made from old lumber pulled from abandoned buildings, and part of it IS an abandoned house that my dad moved and built around). It probably detracted somewhat from the surroundings (at least from a UEer's perspective), but it's a way to recycle and maintain a low-cost lifestyle.
If the building is on the brink of collapse or about to be torn down, then I'd say go for it, save what you can before it gets buried (but don't use the "brink of collapse" thing to justify salvaging where it's really not true, that's an easy trap to fall into). When I'm exploring I like to leave items where they are, if I find an old bottle or antique radio that would look cool on my shelf I'll leave it for the next explorer to enjoy, although if I found something really cool and useful like an old gun (my dad found one once and restored it) I'd probably take it. My ethics are kind of variable that way.
Turn off the internet and go play outside.
http://spamusement...hp/comics/view/137 |
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ReAct
Location: Northern Jersey... For now.
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 3 on 10/20/2003 8:49 PM >
| | | | I'm a technical person, I can put to good use a lot of the equipment and materials found in abandon buildings. I have also personally seen quite a bit of that equipment destroyed when wrecking-balls came through.
There's no dancing around it: It is stealing to salvage equipment from soon-to-be-razed buildings, but as I see it, taking it and putting it to good use is a hell of a lot better a cause than having it become traction for bulldozer treads.
If you know a building is about to be leveled but you don't know if salvage crews have come through yet, one thing to check: Find good sized electrical closet and look for big pieces of copper wire still installed in the equipment. Heavy duty copper cable is worth a ton of money, and if salvage crews have done their thing, I promise that cable will be gone.
-ReAct
"'13.2V...' Thirteen volts. It's thirteen volts? Jesus, I could practically be made of salt water and this wouldn't hurt me."
"That says '13.2kV.'"
"Ohhhh... Thirteen-thousand volts... I suppose that's a little different...." |
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uem-Wotan
Noble Donor
Location: Montreal
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 4 on 10/20/2003 11:28 PM >
| | | | Ethics on taking items:
http://www.uer.ca/forum_showthread.asp?fid=1&threadid=2412
There are probably a couple more threads with the same topic, but this is the most recent. Quoth the admin, "USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION!"
Asbestos, schmestos! |
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IUSSA
This member has been banned
| | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 5 on 10/21/2003 7:10 PM >
| | | | I'd try giving the property owner a call and ask them if they mind you taking whatever it is, they'll probably say no for insurance reasons or something, but at least you tried the legal way . . if it was on the chopping block and there was some useful and valuable equiptment I really wanted inside and nobody would notice me taking it I probably would . . but that's never happened yet, so who can say for sure?
I'd take change on the floor . . I guess that could be stealing too . . it's up to each person to decide what is acceptable . . some people think gaffiti is okay :/
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Detroit
Moderator
Location: Ottawa /Gatineau /Montreal
Gender: Male
4-aminophenol and 2-5% potassium hydroxide
| |  | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 6 on 10/21/2003 7:41 PM >
| | | | - Take nothing but pictures (or memories if you don't have a camera)
- Leave nothing but footprints.
The temptation to take cool stuff is ever present but I think it is just wrong. The fact that I can resist that urge and leave the cool stuff for others to see after me makes me feel like I deserve the title of Urban Explorer…. not just Trespassing Thief.
The way I look at it UErs in general get off fairly easily when we are confronted by authorities and property owners. From my experience most people seem to "relax" when the see that all I am doing is taking pictures and looking around.
The more people take stuff, the more chances there will be irate property owners and authorities who don't give a damn what we are doing, just that we are trespassing.
Many people will argue that there are plenty of people who are not UErs who go into old buildings to pick up scrap and such and that if they do it why shouldn’t we?
Go ahead… but you will be doing so as a thief not as a UEr. Even abandoned places and the stuff in them belong to someone.
Take a picture, hey, you can even take two! Then you’ll have twice as many cool mementoes.
The end of the beginning is the beginning of the end. |
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Krenta
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Nope, wasn't me.
| | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 7 on 10/21/2003 9:44 PM >
| | | |
I said it in the other thread about this, and I'll say it again: Taking stuff is tempting, but a bad idea. I'm a hypocrite, of course, in that anything I might ever find in a storm drain or sewer I'll take without hesitation... but somehow sewers seem OK, to me. I've been tempted, most recently by some old printing plates/blocks in a disused brewery, but I've yet to take anything... and I haven't actually found anything worth keeping in a drain or sewer. (It helped that the plates/blocks were rusted/corroded so as to not actually be useful. I have a small letterpress... but why risk burglary/theft charges for something not even useful?)
I'd much rather have cool pictures than cool pieces of junk. I've got enough "stuff" as is, but you can never have enough cool pictures. ;)
Have Speed Graphic, Will Travel. |
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ReAct
Location: Northern Jersey... For now.
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 8 on 10/21/2003 9:52 PM >
| | | | I personally think there's a good bit of difference between taking momentos in an abandon building and from salvaging equipment in a building that is about to be razed.
Unless you know for an absolute fact that a building is about to be razed, then nothing should be taken but pictures. I agree with that.
And unless you can be honestly certain that salvage/resoration/construction crews have come through and laid claim to useful equipment already, then, again, nothing should be taken but pictures.
It's a diffricult situation to address, probably best addressed by most with the "take only photos/leave only foot prints" philosophy.
A big part of being able to salvage things is having a concrete ethical stand and the will to abide by it.
-ReAct
"'13.2V...' Thirteen volts. It's thirteen volts? Jesus, I could practically be made of salt water and this wouldn't hurt me."
"That says '13.2kV.'"
"Ohhhh... Thirteen-thousand volts... I suppose that's a little different...." |
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Stewie
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Gender: Male
kill your idols
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 9 on 10/22/2003 12:28 AM >
| | | | I know many disagree with me but my theory is if its something nobody cares to see, wants to see or is ever going to see... I'm taking it. I took 2 Pop Shoppe bottles from Lister Block, 2 calendars, and an elevator repair sheet. Thats the extense of my thievery.
> The hierarchy of power dictates that the person with the most power does the least amount of work and retains the highest benefit. |
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DarkTreader
Gender: Male
| | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 10 on 10/22/2003 1:12 AM >
| | | | | I know many disagree with me but my theory is if its something nobody cares to see, wants to see or is ever going to see... I'm taking it. I took 2 Pop Shoppe bottles from Lister Block, 2 calendars, and an elevator repair sheet. Thats the extense of my thievery. |
"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."
~ Thomas Babbington
Think about it.
footsteps light, flashlights bright
-~ DT
Losers go home... winners go home and fuck the prom queen |
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uem-Tux
Iron Wok Jan
Location: Montreal
Gender: Male
UE Geek
| |  | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 11 on 10/22/2003 3:43 AM >
|  | | | There's this really cool yellow glass medecine style bottle in the O'Keefe brewery that every time I see I want to take, to save it from the inevitable smashing it will no doubt face... but I don't.
Sometimes it's hard not to steal when you know for a fact that you're one of maybe 5 people in your city who will see this thing, and that three of those 5 would smash it without hesitation, and the fifth guy is right next to you changing his flashlight batteries...
UEM tend to be hardliners about this sort of thing, only because if we ever do get caught, we don't want a simple "souvenir" to get us into deeper trouble. The more exceptions to your rules that you make, the less meaningful they become.
Urban Exploration Montreal
Why are you the way that you are? |
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Freak
Location: Usually Alaska, now MSP.
Gender: Male
Hypocrite
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 12 on 10/22/2003 4:31 AM >
| | | | One thing that I don't feel too bad about acquiring is old telegraph insulators. Most of the good ones are already all gone, since insulator collectors are pretty rabid and will climb up dodgy utility poles or old buildings to get at them. Some of these guys are just nuts, I saw a guide to collecting insulators that said something like "make sure when collecting antique and rare insulators from active telephone lines to replace them with less valuable ones, so as not to interrupt the residents' phone service"! I'd never go that far, but when I find a fallen pole or one with a climbable tree next to it (there's a lot of old telegraph lines around here) I'll try to get any insulators that havent' been taken or shot off by rednecks.
Back home we actually use some of these to hold wires going to our diesel generator and small hydropower wheel, so they're more than just pretty things on a shelf to me.
Turn off the internet and go play outside.
http://spamusement...hp/comics/view/137 |
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DarkTreader
Gender: Male
| | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 13 on 10/22/2003 5:41 AM >
| | | | Well Freak, I personally feel that you've got a unique situation up there. I mean, if what I know about alaska is correct, to waste something by just throwing it out is pretty much unheard of, because someone can always find a use for it. I think in your situation, finding things that have some sort of usefulness to them would very much fall into the 'salvage' area.
Unfortunately, not all the rest of the world has that sort of mindset, so things are thrown out all the time. If you see something that you absolutely have to have, why not go and get it from a catalog, or eBay or someplace like that? Otherwise, just leave it, take lots an lots of pictures... ~shrugs~
and drk, if you bring up the Unicorns, Imma hit ya =P
footsteps light, flashlights bright
-~ DT
Losers go home... winners go home and fuck the prom queen |
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outage
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Gender: Male
| | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 14 on 10/23/2003 8:38 AM >
| | | | I've never understood taking useless items merely as a souvineer. I mean where it sits, the item has a 'context' you might find an old beer bottle still standing upright on a table covered in a film of dust in the decaying breakroom of a long decrepit factory. And it just 'fits' and you wonder what the story was, who stopped for a beer as the last items were being packed up and carried out of the newly closed factory. If I took it home, cleaned it off and stuck it on my shelf, then it's completely out of context - just an indistinguisable knick-knack on a shelf of similar items.
I think Bob Ballard (the guy who found the Titanic) said it best when we wrote of the later French expedition to that ship - where they tore it apart (literally) to steal salvage items: "Whether or not one agrees that salvage was wrong, it has to be admitted that a teacup brought to the surface and restored to 'mint condition' with it's red White Star Line insignia gleaming as good as new, is little more than a teacup. However, a teacup resting on a boiler on the bottom of the ocean, as if set there a minute ago, is a moving reminder of the Titanic's fate. Personally, I'd rather see that teacup left where it is."
Why not take a photo? Not only will you have a momento of the item and the building with all of the original atmosphere, but they take up less room and the original will remain for others to enjoy. Macro lenses are good (but not necessary) for this, and might cost less than you think. I scored a Centon DF300 SLR, a standard and macro lens, flash and carry bag all for only $AU77 on eBay. (About $54US)
As for actually useful items that I know for a fact will be destroyed in the near future - I'd take those. We waste enough things already, and I can't see why perfectly good items should be destroyed merely to satisfy somone else's artifical ideas of morality.
[last edit 10/24/2003 6:07 AM by outage - edited 1 times]
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Ninjalicious
Gone, but always with us
Location: Toronto
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 15 on 10/23/2003 1:36 PM >
| | | | I agree with the majority on this one, not because I think it's an evil violation of the "rules" of urban exploration, but just because I think more people should cultivate the skill of appreciating without owning. It's a good mindset to have, as it lets you enjoy many things without having to collect and own a lot of crap.
"I have a large seashell collection which I keep scattered all over the beaches of the world... maybe you've seen it?" --Steven Wright
Ninj
http://www.infiltration.org
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Split
Location: Quebec city, Canada
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 16 on 10/27/2003 12:02 AM >
|  | | | I went Exploring Friday, the Chul addition and I saw this cool key in a look on a panel. I really wanted to take it and even needed to consult with the guy who was with me and he persuaded me not to take it. So I left it there. As you will see on the UEQ site we nearly got caught. We were spotted on cameras and a security guard was sent to catch us. Luckly we didnt get caught, but were an inch away. When my friend persuaded me not to take it he reminded me about UEM and when they got caught in that tunnel and the fact that they got let off because they just took pictures. He also told me about this guy that stole a broken sign and was charged with theft when he got to the exit and there were people waiting for him there. People will charge you for anything, I am happy that I didnt take that key. If i would have gotten caught we would have been in a lot of trouble.
http://ueq.minimanga.com exploration in the cold |
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Viggen
Location: Chirstchurch, New Zealand
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 17 on 10/27/2003 1:18 AM >
| | | | My view: If it'll be missed, its stealing. If it won't be missed, its salvage.
Of course, this only applies to unoccupied/abandoned buildings.
[last edit 10/27/2003 1:19 AM by Viggen - edited 1 times]
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Stewie
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Gender: Male
kill your idols
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 18 on 10/27/2003 4:25 AM >
| | | | I totally agree with that.
> The hierarchy of power dictates that the person with the most power does the least amount of work and retains the highest benefit. |
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Macsbug
Noble Donor
Location: St. Paul, MN
Gender: Male
Safety First!
| | | Re: Stealing or salvaging
<Reply # 19 on 10/27/2003 4:40 AM >
| | | | Posted by Viggen
My view: If it'll be missed, its stealing. If it won't be missed, its salvage.
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That depends on who you are thinking of it being missed by. I'm sure there are plenty of things at the Canada Malting Plant that wouldn’t be missed by the owners, but would definitely take away from another explorers experience. You need to think about the other people who might be through that area, how long it will be around for, and the legal issues that could arise from you taking anything.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." |
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