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1 2 3  UER Forum > Archived UE Main > Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!! (Viewed 1700 times) Valvany  Location: Aalst, Belguim Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!! <Reply # 40 on 9/8/2005 10:23 PM >   To seicer and disgrace, READ my replies! You're telling me that I'm saying that belgium is much different then the US,Canada, Mexico or some other country... I NEVER said that! I said I'm talking about BELGIUM,and I said I'm talking about belgium cause I don't know how it is in other country's! And we are not argueing about how to quote messages,so f*ck that! Chuck,I would really like to ignore seicer ;),but he also deserves some answer! Copper strippers don't break windows,don't spray grafiti everywhere,don't burn down whole buildings,they do lots of damage,but not that kind of damage.The only thing they burn are the cables to "harvest" the copper inside! And about keeping my opinion for myself,I have the RIGHT to say my opinion! you guys are always the first to say : "I live in a free country where I can say whatever I want". So why can't I? Posted by seicer Can you accurately predict with 100% assurance that because I post my photographs that that site will become vandalized by "vandals and taggers"? (happy now?) Buy some glasses and read my previous reply's,I never said posting photo's would attract vandals etc... same goes for disgrace [last edit 9/8/2005 10:24 PM by Valvany - edited 1 times] Forgotten Places : The Art Of Decay >>>www.forgotten-places.com<<< Disgrace  Location: Saint John, New Brunswick  |  Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!! <Reply # 41 on 9/8/2005 10:53 PM >   I find it kind of hilarious when people start whining about free speech when people disagree with them. After all, free speech both applies to the freedom to make a statement, as well as the freedom for other people to reply to that statement however they choose. Disagreement isn't an affront to your freedom of speech, friend. If the mods had deleted the thread, you might have cause to complain, but people disagreeing with you isn't censorship. I think part of the problem is that you don't know what you're arguing with anymore. I don't disagree with the notion that locations should be protected on some level, so I'm not sure why you're getting snippy. So yes, locations should be protected, just on general principle. And here, they are. What I disagree with is your assertion that providing locations on the internet causes a significant increase in vandalism to these sites. You have no causal link between the vandalism and internet website, you're just assuming that they're related. Ask a cop, or a lawyer, or a judge just why vandalism might have taken a leap in your area, and I can pretty much guarantee you that the internet will not be among their listed factors. They might list increases in drug use. They might list increases in gang activity. Police funding cutbacks. Hell, they might even blame music and video games, but the internet? No. I'm sure that there are areas all over the world that have experienced increases and decreases in vandalism in the past four years. So what if I live in a city/country where vandalism has decreased? Could I justify that the underground UE culture was responsible for that too? Maybe vandals across the city started to appreciate the beauty of abandoned buildings because of listed locations? Would that be justification to start making locations public? Vandalism, like any other crime, rises and falls for varieties of reasons. Trying to link it to something like UE just isn't reasonable. And I will say it yet again; if you want some Belgian websites to stop listing locations, e-mail the owner and explain your position. 'Cause I'm pretty sure they don't come here, otherwise they would have spoken up by now. You're pretty much arguing with people on the other side of a pretty big ocean about something you say has nothing to do with us, so I'm not sure what your purpose is here. seicer  Location: New York Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!! <Reply # 42 on 9/8/2005 11:34 PM >   Posted by Valvany To seicer and disgrace, READ my replies! You're telling me that I'm saying that belgium is much different then the US,Canada, Mexico or some other country... I NEVER said that! I said I'm talking about BELGIUM,and I said I'm talking about belgium cause I don't know how it is in other country's! Let me quote *you*: "I'm talking about BELGIUM,NOT the US or Canada or any other country!" "I'm talking about the Belgian case,don't know how it is in Canada or the US." "In the US or any other big country,it is a local problem,but not in Belgium!" Appearantly other people are getting 'fooled' by your incorrect assertions. As far as *abandonments* go, abandonments are the same in the United States, Canada, the U.S., Congo, Bumfuck, New Jersey... you guessed it, they are the same. Please tell me how they are *different*. And we are not argueing about how to quote messages,so f*ck that! Well, you quoted correctly here, so you are learning. Chuck,I would really like to ignore seicer ;),but he also deserves some answer! Chuck is a known troll on UER. Haven't you looked at his prior posts (which is real easy, just click his profile) and looked at his signature? Or are you that shallow? Copper strippers don't break windows,don't spray grafiti everywhere,don't burn down whole buildings,they do lots of damage,but not that kind of damage.The only thing they burn are the cables to "harvest" the copper inside! But yourself earlier, you mentioned that, and I quote you -- "I'm not only talking about taggers!"..."PEOPLE WHO VANDALISE BUILDINGS!" And once again I'm going to state that copper strippers vandalize buildings. What kind of "damage" are you expecting? Have you ever seen a building that has been stripped of copper? Because I have and it comes in the form of demolished walls or walls that are just barely standing after they have been gutted of their parts. So how is that vandalism any different than tagging, setting a fire, or kicking out panes of glass? It's not. Moving on... And about keeping my opinion for myself,I have the RIGHT to say my opinion! you guys are always the first to say : "I live in a free country where I can say whatever I want". So why can't I? Getting arrogant and snippy now, aren't you? You started the original post, yet whenever someone replies and it is something you do not agree with, you either call their post "stupid", attack their credibility, say they have "no idea what is going on", or cry about free speech. Disgrace pointed this out clearly as well. You are saying *what you want*, but you are also posting in a *public* *forum* which means *anybody* has the right to say what they want and how they want in a manner they choose. People disagreeing with you is not censorship as you clearly disguise. Perhaps you need to take a step back, review the situation, and decide on approperiate action rather than blasting people for their actions... again. Telling people to "F*CK OFF" for posting their opinion is also shallow. (happy now?) Buy some glasses and read my previous reply's,I never said posting photo's would attract vandals etc... same goes for disgrace You do realize you are going in circles. Let me quote you -- "We can!! by not giving them(the bad guys) the info they need!"..."Well,everytime we put a new location online(some pictures or a history),we give them the name of a village or city!So they know where to look for." You said it right there. Posting photographs or historical information gives the vandalis information they need. And vandals are not just taggers or fire-starters or window-bashers. They include copper-strippers because they do equal amounts of devastating damage. I think the problems here is that you don't know what point you are arguing. No one is disagreeing that a location, if it is valuable enough, should be protected on some level, but we are disagreeing on other points, such as vandalism as a result of web-sites (and thus photographs). I asked for you to cite a specific case and evidence, but you continuously dance around my question and snip it out. How original. Vandalism occurs *even if* we remove images and information from our web-sites. I've come across scores of buildings that have been damaged, burned, stripped of their copper, etc. that have NOT been documented on the internet... Hell, some of these places were vandalised before the internet! (From sources on certain locations.) As I stated, and Disgrace stated, you aren't doing anything on here that is making any effort. It's not helping anyone and I think you would be better off to write a nice and *polite* letter *clearly* stating your evidence and facts to web-site owners. Abandoned Valvany  Location: Aalst, Belguim Gender: Male  |  |  Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!! <Reply # 43 on 9/9/2005 12:02 AM >   You are saying *what you want*, but you are also posting in a *public* *forum* which means *anybody* has the right to say what they want and how they want in a manner they choose. And you say I'm arrogant when I say that I have the right to say my opinion!? You just said the same but with other words... You said it right there. Posting photographs or historical information gives the vandalis information they need. Indeed,you're right about that,what I meant was giving them to much info when posting new photographs(for example a history etc) abandonments are indeed the same in every other country,but the people are different in the US,Congo or whatever!They have another mentality.. Anyway,I'm not going to argue with you anymore,cause this is leading to nothing!I have my arguments,you have yours.You don't agree with me,fine,I respect that... And you could say that I'm just a chickenshit,too afraid to argue with you,but in fact,I'm just tired explaining this problem... btw, about Chuck,I don't know him,I don't know you(Seicer) and I don't know the rest of you,so you don't gonna hear from my that you are "stupid" or dumb or whatever,you're just somebody with the same hobby as mine,nothing more,nothing less!So before thinking something wrong,I don't see you as an enemy because you disagree with me. Forgotten Places : The Art Of Decay >>>www.forgotten-places.com<<< Wiccan  Location: Hamilton Ontario Gender: Female  |  Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!! <Reply # 44 on 9/9/2005 1:47 AM >   *hands Valvany a Valium* Radical_Ed  Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA Gender: Male "You work your life away and what do they give? You're only killing yourself to live!"  |  Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!! <Reply # 45 on 9/9/2005 10:17 AM >   Posted by Wiccan *hands Valvany a Valium* *takes valium from Valvany for personal use* "Are you happy now with all the choices you've made?" "Are there times in life when you know you should've stayed?" "Will you compromise and then realize the price is too much to pay?" "Winners and losers... which one will you be today?" ***Social Distortion*** IIVQ  Location: La Sud-Est du cité majeur du North-Holland (Bijlmer), .NL Gender: Male Back in Urbex!  |  |  |  |  Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!! <Reply # 46 on 9/9/2005 11:41 AM >   Posted by Valvany Guys,If you think you know it better,then explain me why a building is abandoned for about 30 years,and suddenly,in 2004-2005 everything is tagged,smashed to pieces etc. Is that FUCKING COINCIDENCE? That could very well be coincidence. I just sold my statistics book to someone, or I could have lent it to you. [ ... ] IIVQ,your last reply is stupid,have you seen those copper strippers?I've seen a lot of them in different buildings,and they are some old,dirty yerks who don't have the money to buy a brand new computer,so they DON'T have internet! My last reply is not stupid. I have seen copper strippers, in multiple places in Gent, and recently in a farm nearby. The men in Gent were turkish men in their 30's. They wore decent clothing. They didn't speak good dutch, so I don's suspect them to find much on the internet, but they looked like they could afford it. OTOH I recently "met" a Dutch copper stripper in a farm which was slated for demolishing. When I went in I noticed a rather new van outside. I heard noise and when at the 2nd floor I saw the van speed off with a white, young man inside. When going outside there was a garbage bag with empty cable sleeves which hadn't been there when I went in. Copper strippers don't break windows,don't spray grafiti everywhere,don't burn down whole buildings,they do lots of damage,but not that kind of damage.The only thing they burn are the cables to "harvest" the copper inside! I've never seen them burn cables (allways cut it) but if they burn it locally they can burn down the whole building. That's not vandalism, but I guess you prefer simple vandalizing to burnimination. Also, you say: You also live in belgium,but it looks like you didn't visited that much places in belgium,otherwise you would see how these places are going down since the last 2 years! Let me think of all the locations I've been to twice with a 2-year interval (or more). (BTW I only live in Belgium for 3 years now) Liege, Cheratte: Some more broken windows, but the main change is that time is taking it's toll on the roofs. Liege, Chartreuse: Paintball boxes (but nothing changed in the part I was in the first time). Liege, Pontisse: Closed off to be used as monkey reserve. Uhhhm, donkey that is Liege, unknown office building: All broken windows have the glass totally removed. (professional job) Charleroi, MLC: The tracks look relatively clean, but there's not much to vandalise with only concrete. The quality of the graffiti is really good, lots of nice pieces and few simple tags. Charleroi, Fosse No. 18: Closed off with a new fence, no vandalism at all. Ahaus, Textilwerke: Demolished, the adjoining building has been burnt out. Maastricht, Railway: They're going to reuse the railway. The bridge is exactly as vandalized as it was: almost all copper removed. France, several houses: No vandalism at all, just more collapsed. As a contrast: Maastricht, hidden Valley: This is essentially a forest, not mentioned on much websites but it went from a nice place to a dump in the 3 years I know it. Conclusion: Only one of the locations I've been to has been vandalised more. I've actually seen the vandals: three local kids who threw rocks trough windows. They probably knew this location because it was in their backyard, not because they surfed the internet. But for the general demise we should point our finger at the community of Vise, because they don't do anything with the building (a monument) which is now in relatively good shape but starts to crumble, in 5 years it's state will be much, much worse. This is a location which was mentioned on at least 15 webpages in end 2002, it will be considerably more now. It's also very easy to reach for a very big and bored youth population (Liege, and closer, Cheratte). So I don't really believe in internet-induced vandalism. There will be cases where vandals have looked up things on the net, but I highly doubt more than 1% of all vandalisation has a root on the internet. There might be a problem with copper strippers. But as long as they only remove copper from empty buildings (which will probably be demolished), I think it's not so bad as it's some kind of recycling, that noone else will do as it's labourious. They do make a mess with all their cable sleeves, but as long as they don't really vandalize the building, I don't have a big problem with them. Graffitists have a similar subculture as us with a heavy trade in locations good to piece, both online and offline, just as we have - you won't prevent that by taking your locations offline. Also, not giving the location is something like making your location cripple - finding a location is for me part of the exploration: a *big* part. (I've recently spent 1.5 days driving around, just having been in 1 building, and I had 2 really good days). I want to have other people enjoy this with me. I respect the "don't post entry details" on UER, but I decide what I do on my site for myself. Also, I don't hold myself responsible for buildings being vandalized. I point at vandals (but, I think it's better they do it at abandoned stuff than at my bike) and especially at communities who let perfect buildings rot to decay, which is the real vandalism in my eyes. You are right to be worried about buildings being vandalised, but in this case I think you're overreacting (especially as a newling on this forum - we've had similar discussions dozens of times already). Also, UE is in buildings which are past their intended usage anyway. So I think anyone has to deal with the fact that others find an alternative usage. It's part of the hobby. Tijmen P.S. Don't say me or my posts are stupid, as I then make long, well funded but boring replies! Posted by MapMan | 18/9/2005 19:25 | Hedy Lamarr made porn? Posted by turbozutek | 20/9/2005 2:29 | Dude, educate us! safety_matches   |  Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!! <Reply # 47 on 9/10/2005 1:46 AM >   The book "Vandalism" by Colin Ward. I suggest everyone read it. Great essays like "Developers as Vandals". Much relevant disscussion that relates to many UE issues. Boons  Location: Montreal Gender: Male  |  Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!! <Reply # 48 on 9/10/2005 6:34 AM >   The previous posts have pretty much summed up logically the arguments. Well put out too. Another thing I'd like to add: When you mentioned UE sites went up a few years ago and you've noticed a higher rate of vandalism. All though you do see a correlation here, you aren't looking at causes. What else can be causing such an increase in the act? - Commercialism - Increasing criminal rate (correlate those two) - Increasing youth (the more the merrier) Also, have you bothered to research whether it was cyclical or not? You say you've spoken to one trasher/tagger, and you automatically assumed this was a large enough sample to make the assumption that no local taggers exist. UER Forum > Archived UE Main > Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!! (Viewed 1700 times)  1 2 3  All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire. To contact webmaster, or click to email with problems or other questions about this site: UER CONTACT View Terms of Service | View Privacy Policy | Server colocation provided by Beanfield This page was generated for you in 234 milliseconds. Since June 23, 2002, a total of 741779641 pages have been generated.