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 Valvany
Location: Aalst, Belguim
Gender: Male
 |  |  | Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
< on 8/30/2005 11:06 PM >
|  | | | There is some BIG problem in belgium(and probably in the rest of the world) with abandoned locations : Vandalism and graffiti(mostly ugly tags).
Every fellow UE knows that! But what are we doing against it? NOTHING.
We can!! by not giving them(the bad guys) the info they need!
What do I mean with this?
Well,everytime we put a new location online(some pictures or a history),we give them the name of a village or city!So they know where to look for.
Off course you can say "hey,they can find it anyway on google"
True, BUT they can't find everything on the net,
for example : Building X,New York
Start looking in New York for building X is like looking for a needle in a haystack,that city is huge,so the change finding it is maybe 10%,with lots of luck.
BUT,if you write Building X,Ninove(small village in belgium),there is a much bigger chance they will find it,so DON'T give them any location name.
Why am I posting this?? Recently,few unknown people contacted me,saying they visited Building X and Building Y.They told me it was a great location for tagging walls and spraying graffiti everywhere,thanks to my site and other belgian site's.(I checked it and it is true)
I have proof of this,i've seen it,and i know for sure it is because of our site's.
So I'm asking to each and every Belgian,American,Canadian,German...Urban explorer. DON'T GIVE AWAY LOCATIONS.
If you get a mail about asking for a location,try to check out the sender(website,other work etc)
Especially for my fellow Belgian colleagues like urban projects,urban expl front,onderwereld,yoze etc : Try NOT to give away locations that easily,don't name them on the site(use a province,or something like "in the neighbourhood of City X")
I know,maybe some of you guys won't agree with me,but don't think about your own,but about others,who also wants to visit and photograph that particular building,without the vandalism or tags.
If seen "The Castle Of Mesen" going down like this,when I've visited the place in 2002,there was not a single window broken,no tags,even no footprints(only Henk of abandoned places visited this place before me)
Anno 2005 : lots of vandalism,tags,and tourism :s
Maybe it's strange(or am I too Hardcore?) but i'm really sick because of this,stress etc...Like many of you guys,this is a part of our lives,seeing a building going down because of some idiots who are bored,really hurts me!!
So people,especially the belgian UE,think about it,reply,and let me know what you decide!
Damn,I should have been a politician ;)
ps: The older location on my site will be deleted(city name) tomorrow,locations who are demolished can stay!
Forgotten Places : The Art Of Decay
>>>www.forgotten-places.com<<< |
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enigma32
  
Location: Los Angeles and NYC
Gender: Male
| | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 1 on 8/31/2005 12:35 AM >
|  | | | You know,
you're right.
To some extent.
But, at the same time, what you are proposing adds a wall between legitimate explorers and the spectacular locations they haven't seen yet.
Unfortunately, I don't think there is a solution.
I don't pretend to understand the reasoning behind this sickening activity (tagging), but I imagine that other such [related] destructive practices have occured since the beginning of the beginning-- frustrating all explorers with a respect for their surroundings. (Carving names into trees, for example, has been around far longer than buildings have, I do imagine.)
Personally, I think the policy set forth on the UER Location DB sets an acceptable precedent for the revelation of information about locations of interest to us. So long as precise (GPS) information isn't provided for the access route, I don't believe there's anything wrong with providing very precise information about the location of a building itself. (It may, as you suggested, be wise to only reveal regional information for locations in smaller communities, and I support you in that cause.)
Despite your recent personal experience (which is extremely unfortunate, and I hope you reamed them a new asshole, then reported their phone number to the police), I have a feeling that taggers and other vandals will continue to ruin our experience (and more importantly, the experience of those that will stumble upon a location next) so long as there are people out there without an appreciation for architecture and history.
Just my 2 cents.
~enigma32~
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Uncle Goose
 
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Gender: Male
The Goose knows best.
| | | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 2 on 8/31/2005 7:16 AM >
| | | | Personally I think that taggers and vandalists (graffitieartists are in general not so bad since they usually make nice things) won't travel 150km to tag or vandalize a location, it's more a local thing. In every town or city you have a percentage of bored teenagers who have nothing on there hands and there's always one or more who knows an abandoned factory or building. the easier to get into a building the more they vandalize (like Van Alsberghe & Van Oost) but on thougher locations there's almost no vandalisme (like La Lainiére de L'escau).
The solution?? Kill all bored teenagers and there will be no vandalism.
A 1000 days of sorrow can disapear in a split second, it takes only one person to make it happen. |
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Slyv
 
Location: Belgium, kingdom of UE
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 3 on 8/31/2005 8:56 AM >
| | | | Posted by Uncle Goose
The solution?? Kill all bored teenagers and there will be no vandalism.
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Not 100% agreed. Teenagers are a pain yes, but scrap metal dealers are worse, as they systematically, and more often illegally, demolish lot of stuff especially in industrial places to resell the raw metal parts.
The point you say Valvany applies only to teenagers. I'm sure that most of the metal dealers know nothing about internet, they have their own sources of info regarding abandoned industrial places, so in the end, it is rather useless...
Anderlues coking plant in Belgium is a good example. No tag at all (or whatever teenager stuff), but lot stealth from metal'people.
--
> Check my book ! < |
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Greg
Location: Canada
Gender: Male
How is this even 'exploration'? It's a loving house you've already been in you weirdo!
| | | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 4 on 8/31/2005 8:57 AM >
|  | | | It's an extremely hard decision. I wish taggers, and vandals shouldn't be destroying our exploring sites, but I cannot think of any easy ways of stopping them personally. But its sad that taggers and vandals cannot just go away. The only thing I can think of is not giving any information out over email, or something like that. I would have to think more on it, and if i can come up with any suggestions worth posting, i will post.....
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Valvany
Location: Aalst, Belguim
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 5 on 8/31/2005 9:11 AM >
| | | | You both are right(about killing the teenagers ;) lol)
In the US or any other big country,it is a local problem,but not in Belgium!
Belgium is small,somebody from for example Holland, can take his car and drive to any location in Belgium.
The people(taggers) I've talked about weren't even from belgium!
| but on thougher locations there's almost no vandalisme (like La Lainiére de L'escau). |
Uncle Goose, how manny site's(UE's) visited this place??? Not manny!So there is no that much info about La lainiere de l'escau.
How manny people visited the Wintercircus in Ghent? Not that manny,almost no tags and a few broken windows.
How manny visited the castle of mesen? MANNY,totally vandalised!
This is the negative side of our website's,but i'm sure we can do something about it,especially here in Belgium!
Why not giving them a province?? So "good" people know in what part of belgium building X is,but "bad" people don't know where to look for ;) (don't think this is proper english ;)
It's really important,Even if we can stop 1 tagger from coming to Building X,wouldn't it be worth trying it? Cause 1 tagger can make the difference,cause that 1 person can tag a place,wall,wich will chance the whole look of the building!
ps : some people think i'm talking about this forum LOCATION DATABASE,I know non-members can't see it,so I was NOT talking about that ;)
Forgotten Places : The Art Of Decay
>>>www.forgotten-places.com<<< |
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Valvany
Location: Aalst, Belguim
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 6 on 8/31/2005 9:27 AM >
| | | | You wrong about that Slyv,I know,those metal stealing assholes are a pain in the ass,just like bored teenagers!
But i saw lot's of these people in different locations!
They destroy ceilings or parts of a wall,but they don't destroy or tag a whole factory! I can live with the fact that we can't stop that!But we CAN stop taggers from getting to these buildings that easily! Some site's even give a route(map),so you can print it and drive to the location! Thats WRONG!!
About the metal dealers,i've photographed a few(we encountered 2 dealers in Marly,you remember uncle goose ;) )
And i'm reporting this to the police,or to the owner!
I did in schotte,photographed these bastards,sent the pictures to OVAM
If there is a building you are really crazy about,and some teenagers are destroying everything,you will think the same as I.
Why is it so hard for you people for not taking the city or village name of your site's,1 stupid word,no one will care...
Not that i'm forcing you,i'm just trying to explain why!
Man,I should write a book about this ;)
Forgotten Places : The Art Of Decay
>>>www.forgotten-places.com<<< |
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IIVQ
 
Location: La Sud-Est du cité majeur du North-Holland (Bijlmer), .NL
Gender: Male
Back in Urbex!
| |  |  | | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 7 on 8/31/2005 10:04 AM >
| | | | Posted by Valvany
Uncle Goose, how manny site's(UE's) visited this place??? Not manny!So there is no that much info about La lainiere de l'escau.
How manny people visited the Wintercircus in Ghent? Not that manny,almost no tags and a few broken windows.
How manny visited the castle of mesen? MANNY,totally vandalised!
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Check Le Hasard in Cheratte: I think every explorer in the Benelux has visited it. There's some vandalism from local kids throwing stones and time is starting to take its toll on the bigger buildings. But other than that, all metal is still in place, and I haven't seen one tag yet (other than all the "2" or "3"'s painted on all doors and walls, but those are part of the building's history.)
I know there is some cases where vandals/taggers found a site online, but I think that in most cases they find places just by accidentally finding it or by hearing about it from friends.
Tijmen
Posted by MapMan | 18/9/2005 19:25 | Hedy Lamarr made porn?
Posted by turbozutek | 20/9/2005 2:29 | Dude, educate us! |
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Valvany
Location: Aalst, Belguim
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 8 on 8/31/2005 10:22 AM >
| | | | IIVQ,your right,cheratte is indeed undamaged! But you're talking about a location in Wallonie,french part of belgium,and cheratte is a location you can't reach by train!!Many taggers has no car,cause they are teenagers,under 18(most of the time)! I don't have a car! so the only time I can get there is with somebody else,who has one!
I don't believe you can find that many locations by accident! Did you found cheratte by accident?
Or Yoze,did he found Castle Neufcour by accident,a place wich is not being visited by manny,no he didn't,he looked it up because he saw that location on another website(no offence Yoze ;) )
A tagger who is looking for a location wil not drive from town to town looking for a good location,they don't!
Forgotten Places : The Art Of Decay
>>>www.forgotten-places.com<<< |
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Valvany
Location: Aalst, Belguim
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 9 on 8/31/2005 10:29 AM >
| | | | Like I told ya before,we CAN'T stop everyone from destroying a location,but we CAN do something about it!
And i'm sure removing city names is the right solution! It's a beginning!
Everyone is saying "but but but but but.." But if you don't try,you don't know!
Forgotten Places : The Art Of Decay
>>>www.forgotten-places.com<<< |
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jukebox fuckup
Location: killadelphia
Gender: Female
| | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 10 on 8/31/2005 12:12 PM >
| | | | Posted by Slyv
Not 100% agreed. Teenagers are a pain yes, but scrap metal dealers are worse, as they systematically, and more often illegally, demolish lot of stuff especially in industrial places to resell the raw metal parts.
The point you say Valvany applies only to teenagers. I'm sure that most of the metal dealers know nothing about internet, they have their own sources of info regarding abandoned industrial places, so in the end, it is rather useless...
Anderlues coking plant in Belgium is a good example. No tag at all (or whatever teenager stuff), but lot stealth from metal'people.
|
some guy claiming to be a plumber looking for scrap metal was in byberry the other day.
that was almost as ironic as that time i was in lancaster and saw a horse and buggy pulling into a gas station.
“Civilization today reminds me of an ape with a blowtorch playing in a room full of dynamite." |
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Uncle Goose
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Gender: Male
The Goose knows best.
| | | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 11 on 8/31/2005 12:35 PM >
| | | | Posted by Valvany
About the metal dealers,i've photographed a few(we encountered 2 dealers in Marly,you remember uncle goose ;) )
|
Yep, I remember those and have them on film and digital so if ever needed I can get you prints of those assholes. Too bad they came back too early to that metal they collected. I sure wanted to trow it into the water and make there efforts useless. Too bad, too bad.
A 1000 days of sorrow can disapear in a split second, it takes only one person to make it happen. |
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Chuck
Location: Chicago
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 12 on 8/31/2005 3:25 PM >
| | | | Good luck Valvany!!!
This subject is brought up a lot and nobody seems to understand....
For example:
http://www.uer.ca/...d=1&threadid=21985
I have given up the fight, it is pointless.
Av and myself have agreed to disagree on the LDB.
I still think it dilutes, and is slowly destroying, urban exploring.
Again, good luck!!!!!
Chuck
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands. - Clint Eastwood |
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Soma
Location: San Francisco
| |  | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 13 on 8/31/2005 4:21 PM >
| | | | First off, this isn't URGENT. Second, you need to get a life dude. If seeing the walls tagged up is getting you so stressed then you're too wrapped up in this. It's become your identity which isn't good.
What you're suggesting is to keep our knowledge to ourselves, essentially. If that's the case, what's the point of having a community? You might as well stop posting anything about your adventures and just go out with friends you know in real life.
If that's what you choose, go for it. But I choose not to be so selfish and I'll continue to post info on the web for others in the community to experience. Vandals may see it and tag it up and that would suck, but hey, with the benefits of the community comes the undesirable elements.
I danced until midnight when the sky turned black,
It is hard to dance with the devil on your back.
They buried my body and thought I had gone,
But I am the dance and I still go on. |
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Valvany
Location: Aalst, Belguim
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 14 on 8/31/2005 5:10 PM >
| | | | Well soma,looks like you just DON'T get it!
This forum is a good example of a community,this is the place where we have to share our knowledge,not on the web!
A history,fine,but giving other people a route,a map or a city name is just stupid!
I choose for this life and this identity,so if you bother, F*ck off!! you don't have to tell me how to live my life!
And you are calling me selfish? SELFISH for godsake???
You're telling me that you don't care about people who are tagging buildings,and vandalizing it,thats SELFISH!
Forgotten Places : The Art Of Decay
>>>www.forgotten-places.com<<< |
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enigma32
Location: Los Angeles and NYC
Gender: Male
| | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 15 on 8/31/2005 5:45 PM >
| | | | He said he does care. "that would suck".
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Boons
Location: Montreal
Gender: Male
| | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 16 on 8/31/2005 5:51 PM >
| | | | I'm completely confused about the point of this topic?
It doesn't seem that you're aware that the idea that a tagger would research his locations first and thoroughly get a lot of information to then afterwards go inside the location JUST to tag.
Someone mentioned before that it's more of a local thing.
You know how ridiculous your statement is? That a tagger researches and carefully plans out where he will tag next? Unless he's in to create another Picasso, no way in hell a tagger would be organised enough to do his homework, do some research and put time into this.
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Valvany
Location: Aalst, Belguim
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 17 on 8/31/2005 6:36 PM >
| | | | I'm not only talking about taggers!Read the whole topic god damned!
PEOPLE WHO VANDALISE BUILDINGS!
and ok,most of the taggers won't prepare a tag-trip,but people who vandalizes these building does!!
Read the first post in this topic,and maybe,I said MAYBE,you will understand what i'm talking about!
[last edit 8/31/2005 6:50 PM by Valvany - edited 1 times]
Forgotten Places : The Art Of Decay
>>>www.forgotten-places.com<<< |
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Crossfire
Location: Kay-Dub
Gender: Male
Don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years.
| | | | | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 18 on 8/31/2005 7:31 PM >
| | | | Valvany has a point - there's a difference between posting stories and photographs of places you've been, and practically posting a road-map on how to get there. There is no arguing the point that places listed in the location database have been targetted by taggers, vandals and worst of all, arsonists. That's the biggest reason why the LDB was locked down for full members only - it keeps the casual viewer out, which we hoped would help cut back on vandalism and the burning of LDB locations.
The bottom line may be, though, Valvany, that there's nothing we can do. Even without access to the LDB, vandals will get into abandoned places and kick the crap out of them. All we can do is hope that we've got the piece of mind not to make it easier for them.
C.
Disgruntled. |
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Turd Furgusen
Location: Charleston, WV
Gender: Male
I think marijuana is just nature's way of saying high!
| | | | Re: Urgent Message URBAN EXPLORERS!!!
<Reply # 19 on 8/31/2005 9:15 PM >
| | | | There's always been a very fine line with all of this. There are many other's, like me, who are very much interested in the history of these sites. I know I have looked up tons on info. on the history of many sites I have seen here on the UEDB. We have to face the fact that most all of these locations are in fact in the public. We should try to help, but shouldn't feel at fault if a location is disturbed.
Everyone has a dark side, mines just a little more illuminated. |
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