Posted by splumer But aren't you twisting God's word through your interpretation?
Not so much. Literalists, or fundies, unlike the "moderates", are less theologically bankrupt since they have actually read all of thier texts.
Christian texts, particularly the modern translations, are pretty open about thier bigotry.
The "twisted" part is the encyclopedic ignorance of history and logic that it takes to ignore the inconsistencies and intolerance in the bible. Only wishful thinking and a willingness to accept unreasonable ideas (that is: untestable, unencumbered by evidence)could account for this.
According to the christians the earth was flat - and then it wasn't.
I'm not gay, but I can't seem to find any good reason to care if someone is or not. Seems someone has the fear of the homo. It seems like such a little curb to try to climb mentally, you would think the church and her minions could just get over it too.
It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
Posted by Mr_Fiend You keep missing it. God doesnt want ANYONE dead, period. Its essential that you understand that. If you disobey Him, He cannot physically let you into heaven because of the laws set in place. He wants you to choose (thought I covered this already), and if you choose death, then thats on you, He didnt want that, you did.
Uh, wtf?
Posted by Mr_Fiend Lets take this logic of yours a step further. How bout we alter the bible a bit, tweek it to accept homosexuality. You would like that, God specifically says NOT to do that in Rev 22:18.
Just what logical premise of mine are you refering to? If we should bother to alter the bible, I would suggest starting with removing all the contradictions, intolerance and violence, then get rid of all the magical thinking and fantastic ideas with no evidence and end with getting rid of all the concepts that are incompatible with living together in peace. I digress...what mods did you think I was suggesting?
Posted by Mr_Fiend So here is the bible, no mention of homosexuality or how it will not get you into heaven. But then we would have to rewrite Genesis. Adam and Eve, their whole story seems mighty offensive to homosexuals, especially since Gods first commandment to mankind was to "multiply", homosexuals cant do that. The whole idea of homosexuality goes against Gods creation in every aspect, its a slap in His face of His design, you dont need verses to understand that. Anyone who claims to be a Christian and condones or believes a homosexual can enter heaven is a fool.
1.That's your hateful take on genesis. What about people who chose not to have kids? What about people who are born sterile? Waht about people who only have one kid and have not even replced themselves, let alone multiply?
(if god made earth, then god made them, come to think of it, got made the whole concept of gay. How could his own creation be offensive to himself? Why doesn't he just miracle the gays away?)
Who else have you deemed unworthy of heaven, in your learned study of god'd word? Didn't the jews kill jesus? What about witches? Sabbath working infidels? Masturbators?
2. Why rewrite it, why not just tear it out. There is no good evidence of design, or of a god, yet we have dinosaurs and a pretty clear geologic record that seems to refute the whole concept of creationism.
Posted by Mr_Fiend Christians should reach out to the homosexuals, try to show them why God does not approve of thier lifestyles, instead of picketing with signs saying "fags go to hell" or something like that.
What? Seriously?
I need to reach out to you and show you why the great spaghetti monster disapproves of your intolerance and total disregard for reasonable discourse.
It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
Posted by tekriter Just what logical premise of mine are you refering to? If we should bother to alter the bible, I would suggest starting with removing all the contradictions, intolerance and violence, then get rid of all the magical thinking and fantastic ideas with no evidence and end with getting rid of all the concepts that are incompatible with living together in peace. I digress...what mods did you think I was suggesting?
Or better yet, realize that the Bible is parable, metaphor and philosophy and not literal truth. When you take it as parable, you don't have to make excuses for the contradictions and outright outrageousness (such as the prohibition on women dressing like men, or about gathering sticks on the sabbath)
Masturbators?
Uh oh.
“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”
There are two kinds of people, those who do and those who lie about it.
It is "essential" that you understand that the god of abraham (who created the earth, the universe, the duck billed platypus and calculated the atomic number of cesium and pi) is personally VERY concerned with what you do in your bedroom and with whom.
I hate to take any debate to the Billy Joel place, but I'd rather laugh with the sinners than die with the saints.
It must be very tedious to take the shortcut around evidence and accept any premise based on wishful thinking and then have to watch all of the "others" that want evidence and explanations. The same people that stray from the path of "salvation" (salivation?) and tempt others too. It is hard for me to see how believing these strange things about the nature of the universe can in any way be compatible with living together on a very small planet (of masturbators and other sinners).
It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
Posted by tekriter Just what logical premise of mine are you refering to? If we should bother to alter the bible, I would suggest starting with removing all the contradictions, intolerance and violence, then get rid of all the magical thinking and fantastic ideas with no evidence and end with getting rid of all the concepts that are incompatible with living together in peace. I digress...what mods did you think I was suggesting?
You just cant stand something you cant understand, can you?
Posted by tekriter 1.That's your hateful take on genesis. What about people who chose not to have kids? What about people who are born sterile? Waht about people who only have one kid and have not even replced themselves, let alone multiply?
There ya go again, throwing around the word "hate", I'm just repeating the bible, you're the "hater", discrediting everything millions of people stand for.
Posted by tekriter (if god made earth, then god made them, come to think of it, got made the whole concept of gay. How could his own creation be offensive to himself? Why doesn't he just miracle the gays away?)
Holy crap dude! Why didnt I see this before!?!? Oh wait, I ALREADY explained this in detail. Remember our past large discusion thread? I specifically touched on the subject of "if God created everything, then He created sin", or did you just pick and choose what you wanted to believe? Sin (or the "concept of gay") is the lack of God, like darkness is the lack of light, light only makes more light. So He didnt create "gay", and He specifically says it is a sexual perversion and an abomination, end of case.
Posted by tekriter Who else have you deemed unworthy of heaven, in your learned study of god'd word? Didn't the jews kill jesus? What about witches? Sabbath working infidels? Masturbators?
Its not me who is doing the judging, like I said, I'm just repeating what God has said. Quit asking stupid questions of which I know you already know the answer to, its not becomming. Why dont you try reading the bible, instead of plucking out verses that you find amusing. You might start to understand it.
Posted by tekriter 2. Why rewrite it, why not just tear it out. There is no good evidence of design, or of a god, yet we have dinosaurs and a pretty clear geologic record that seems to refute the whole concept of creationism.
Once God is gone, all hell will literally break loose, pretty basic, and its already happening. Society is getting much worse and is comming to a breaking point because people refuse to follow God and are giving the devil what he wants. If you cant see that, then you're really deceived.
Ha! Just because you have found fossils and some primative apes that resemble you're sister doesnt mean there isnt a God who created everything, and you call me close minded.
Posted by tekriter I need to reach out to you and show you why the great spaghetti monster disapproves of your intolerance and total disregard for reasonable discourse.
Yeah, its really simple. The bible teaches Christians to "love their neighbors". If you truly love someone, you want the best for them, right? You dont want them to suffer, right? So reach out to the people who are deceived and dont know that what they are doing wont get them into heaven unless they change and repent. Its not about condemning people, its about trying to save their souls! This goes for anyone living in a life of sin, which just happens to include the poor "picked on" homosexuals. The bible says that "all people have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".
Its not about condemning people, its about trying to save their souls! This goes for anyone living in a life of sin, which just happens to include the poor "picked on" homosexuals. The bible says that "all people have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".
I dont know how much more clear I can make this.
The gay folks I've known have known from an early age, before sexual awakening, that they were different. This is across the board. I've never known of one who had been "recruited" into the "homosexual lifestyle." The claim of it as a lifestyle choice is a convenient excuse for those who condemn homosexuality. They don't want to acknowledge that homosexuality is present from birth, or at least from very early on, because that would shoot holes in the idea that it is merely the exercise of sin.
My prediction is that homosexuality will join working on the sabbath in the bin of forgotten transgressions.
“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”
They don't want to acknowledge that homosexuality is present from birth, or at least from very early on, because that would shoot holes in the idea that it is merely the exercise of sin.
Well I dont know what "they" believe, but according to the bible everyone is born into sin. And again, sin is sin, it just comes in different flavors.
Do I believe someone can be born with homosexual tendencies, yes. I was friends with a kid in kindergarten and elementary school, even then I knew he was different, never was one of the guys and did things the girls did. Found out a few years ago he came out of the closet, big surprise, he'd been like that before any of us were aware of our packages between our legs.
The thing is, its a lie, from day one. And people have chosen to give into it and accept, then hate the Christians for trying to them its a lie. Its not normal, the human body is designed to mate with the opposite sex, I'd say thats pretty obvious.
If people keep laughing at, and doing away with Gods laws and teachings, society will destroy itself, and its well on its way. God taught us morals for a reason.
Not an answer. What changes do you think I was suggesting? What logical argument, specifically did you object to?
Posted by Mr_Fiend You just cant stand something you cant understand, can you?
I do not understand plenty, and have no problem with admitting that. I am curious however and want explanations. What I don't like is making up explanations based on "revealed religion" and wishful thinking.
Posted by Mr_Fiend There ya go again, throwing around the word "hate", I'm just repeating the bible, you're the "hater", discrediting everything millions of people stand for.
And there is no hate at Westboro Baptist? Come on.
Discrediting bad ideas has nothing to do with hate. The church discredited itslef many times over in it's history - just ask Leonardo Davinci. The earth was flat and then it was not. Magellan discredited the flat earth ideas of the church and contributed a great deal to our knowledge of the universe, no out of hate, but out of love for nature and the pursuit of knowledge.
Posted by Mr_Fiend Holy crap dude! Why didnt I see this before!?!? Oh wait, I ALREADY explained this in detail. Remember our past large discusion thread? I specifically touched on the subject of "if God created everything, then He created sin", or did you just pick and choose what you wanted to believe? Sin (or the "concept of gay") is the lack of God, like darkness is the lack of light, light only makes more light. So He didnt create "gay", and He specifically says it is a sexual perversion and an abomination, end of case.
Okay, fine. Now just show me a god, or real testable evidence of his existence, and how you know he hates the gays and I'll buy it. I have a plenty open mind, but I'm not getting a lot of intelligible evidence to help me form a new idea about how we should interact with one another here. You spouted the same incomplete nonsense last time. Still no more illumination from the bible belt.
Posted by Mr_Fiend It's not me who is doing the judging, like I said, I'm just repeating what God has said. Quit asking stupid questions of which I know you already know the answer to, its not becomming. Why dont you try reading the bible, instead of plucking out verses that you find amusing. You might start to understand it.
I've read it plenty. Don;t assume just because I criticise it that I haven't read it. You are interpereting mistranslated bible bits through a certain fundamentalist filter that just happens to agree with you own personal prejudice. Don't for a second belive that your take on a badle flawed book reperesents proof anyone being a sinner or worth less than anyone else.
Posted by Mr_Fiend Once God is gone, all hell will literally break loose, pretty basic, and its already happening. Society is getting much worse and is comming to a breaking point because people refuse to follow God and are giving the devil what he wants. If you cant see that, then you're really deceived.
There is no need for god to form morality. Many primates have been shown to be moralistic in the complete absence of an unreasonable belief system. Society is getting worse than what? Living in trees? The crusades? The inquisition?
Posted by Mr_Fiend Ha! Just because you have found fossils and some primative apes that resemble you're sister doesnt mean there isnt a God who created everything, and you call me close minded.
Your simplistic view of evolution speaks volumes. There is NO evidence to support design, by a god or by a spaghetti monster, amking them both as equally pointless as the infinite number of possible other theories that have no merrit. On the other hand there is a wealth of evidence supporting darwin's theory - which can no be considered fact.
Posted by Mr_Fiend Yeah, its really simple. The bible teaches Christians to "love their neighbors". If you truly love someone, you want the best for them, right? You dont want them to suffer, right? So reach out to the people who are deceived and dont know that what they are doing wont get them into heaven unless they change and repent. Its not about condemning people, its about trying to save their souls! This goes for anyone living in a life of sin, which just happens to include the poor "picked on" homosexuals. The bible says that "all people have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".
The bible also teaches people that Pi is 3 and that you can make sacrifices to cure leprosy and that women are property and that people should be stoned for various offences and that people can die and then wake up three days later and fly - all of which are preposterous and unsupported by evidence in the real world.
There is also no evidence of heaven and therefore no reason to expend energy to get there or to think any less of people who won't get there based on arbitrary rules for use of thier genitals.
Posted by Mr_Fiend I dont know how much more clear I can make this.
I can. You will believe whatever you want to, no matter who it hurts or how crazy it is, based on a very badly written collection of fictitious stories written in the iron age.
Still waiting for the answers in para 1.
It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
The thing is, its a lie, from day one. And people have chosen to give into it and accept, then hate the Christians for trying to them its a lie. Its not normal, the human body is designed to mate with the opposite sex, I'd say thats pretty obvious.
MATING with has absolutely NOTHING to do with emotional bond or attraction. You can even go as far as saying it has nothing to do with sexual attraction. It's an act of reproduction. Everything else is opinion and personal feeling.
Now why do Christians have to stick their nose in everyones business? If homosexuals are going to go to hell for sinning, let them go to hell. If God is the only one who can really judge, leave that to him.
Now why do Christians have to stick their nose in everyones business? If homosexuals are going to go to hell for sinning, let them go to hell. If God is the only one who can really judge, leave that to him.
QFT. In a similar vein, my son was in a structured debate at school about whether the Dungeons & Dragons game is Satanic. One of his point was "So what if it is?"
Interestingly, the Presbyterian church recently changed its policy to allow gays to become ministers, and seems poised to allow gay marriage.
“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”
Yep, because there apparently isnt one that will please you.
Posted by tekriter I do not understand plenty, and have no problem with admitting that. I am curious however and want explanations. What I don't like is making up explanations based on "revealed religion" and wishful thinking.
Okay, thats only fair. There are some things, perhaps many, that we wont ever figure out in this life, and I would hope you would agree with me on that. And yes, people do make things up to fit their ideas, its called blasphemy. But like I said before you must have an understanding (through the Holy Spirit or Gods Spirit) to see the real truth. Yes, I dont doubt you have read the bible and thats great, you obviously have an open mind, good, thats a start. But I can only explain so much, you just dont know until you start applying it in your life and accepting Jesus, thats really it. Thats the answer to your questions that you are missing.
Posted by tekriter And there is no hate at Westboro Baptist? Come on.
HA! Um, yeah, that church is basically a cult. Please, take what you have learned from reading the bible and try to make sense of what they are doing, you cant.
Posted by tekriter Okay, fine. Now just show me a god, or real testable evidence of his existence, and how you know he hates the gays and I'll buy it. I have a plenty open mind, but I'm not getting a lot of intelligible evidence to help me form a new idea about how we should interact with one another here. You spouted the same incomplete nonsense last time. Still no more illumination from the bible belt.
I cant show you anything, I'm not the Wizard of Oz here. You want the answers, you ask for them from God. Take the minimal effort to believe in something you cant see, and you might just get the "proof" you want. Do it in the privacy of your own home, no one has to know you're "crazy". You have the information, its now your choice to do something with it or keep ignoring it because you cant "see it".
Posted by tekriter You are interpereting mistranslated bible bits through a certain fundamentalist filter that just happens to agree with you own personal prejudice. Don't for a second belive that your take on a badle flawed book reperesents proof anyone being a sinner or worth less than anyone else.
That is a theory based on secular schollars bent on trying to discredit the Word of God, that doesnt hold up, its very biased. And I've never said anyone is worth less because of what they done or havent done, and no where in the bible does it say such a thing either, thats a lie, dont believe that. Everyone is equal according to God.
Posted by tekriter There is no need for god to form morality. Many primates have been shown to be moralistic in the complete absence of an unreasonable belief system. Society is getting worse than what? Living in trees? The crusades? The inquisition?
Its really based on your definition of "morality". Society is getting worse as in more crazy fucks out there with their fingers on triggers of nasty weapons because they hate people and life in general. Mass droves of people lost and desperate looking for "hope" and willing to follow ANYONE who can give them that little sliver of hope. That is a set up for failure.
Posted by tekriter The bible also teaches people that Pi is 3 and that you can make sacrifices to cure leprosy and that women are property and that people should be stoned for various offences and that people can die and then wake up three days later and fly - all of which are preposterous and unsupported by evidence in the real world.
Practices and stories from a culture a few thousand years ago.
Posted by tekriter I can. You will believe whatever you want to, no matter who it hurts or how crazy it is, based on a very badly written collection of fictitious stories written in the iron age.
Haha, I will believe whatever I want. And again, thats just an opinion of yours. But life is unfair, it doest matter what you do, you will ALWAYS "hurt" or offend someone. So dont discredit Chrisianity because is "offends" people. That logic can be applied to any and all beliefs. Your atheism offends me and hurts me, it means all that I stand for is a lie, so there! (your beliefs actually dont offend me at all, just making a point).
A person question to you Tekriter, if you dont mind humoring me. Have you ever been to a church? If so, what was it like? And I'm not talking about one of those snake danching churches either.
Posted by Oryx Now why do Christians have to stick their nose in everyones business? If homosexuals are going to go to hell for sinning, let them go to hell. If God is the only one who can really judge, leave that to him.
I can't speak for other Christians, but I can tell you thats not how I conduct things. I believe you should give people the information they need to make a decision on their own. If they choose not to believe, move on, the blood is off your hands. And you are right, God is THE judge, He has the final say.
Posted by Mr_Fiend Yep, because there apparently isnt one that will please you.
This is a clear cop out. I'd still like to hear what wrong logic you accuse me of?
I'll answer the next one and for the rest: res ipsa loquitur.
Posted by Mr_Fiend HA! Um, yeah, that church is basically a cult. Please, take what you have learned from reading the bible and try to make sense of what they are doing, you cant.
Oh, okay. You must be right, so just for fun I checked. This is right on the WBC website: (among others)
"Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. " Luke 17:28-30.
That sound a little intolerant, but like you said, can't be supported with god's word. But just for fun I consulted my well worn bible:
Genesis 19 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Intolerance of gays. Maybe it was "nice" intolerance of gays, like you have. Oh wait:
Leviticus 18 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
Sin or abomination? Well, that's no so bad I guess. Oh, wait:
20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Warm up the smiter, we got some homos to put to death!
1 Samuel 20 20:31 For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die.
Anyone got gay kids! We are having a smiting party anyway...But that's the old testament. Jesus will surely fix this. Oh, wait:
Romans 1 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Worthy of death? I dunno, god's word seems pretty clear here.
Exodus 11 11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.
Children of israel are better than everyone else. But no the jews.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Don't belive in god, get pitched into fire. Used to justify Salem witch trials.
Exodus 22 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
This one too.
Genesis 38 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. 38:9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. 38:10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
Masturbation and birth control are bad - capital offence actually.
Exodus 20 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
This is all pretty tedious of course, but you can't argue with WBC: they actually read their scripture, and they are just mad at the mainstream churches for changing their interpretation to pander to public opinion and our expanding scientific knowledge of the universe.
Again, god seems pretty clear about this. How, again, is this compatable with living together in peace?
It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
Posted by tekriter I'd still like to hear what wrong logic you accuse me of?
I never said you logic was wrong, simply your understanding. You keep repeating over and over that God hates people and wants them dead, which is NOT the case.
Posted by tekriter Again, god seems pretty clear about this. How, again, is this compatable with living together in peace?
Still missing it. In cases of Soddam and Gamora, God let out His wrath on people who continuously disobeyed and refused to follow Him. According to the bible there is an unpardonable sin, it is continuously turning away from God and hardening your heart towards him even though you know the truth. God had enough of them, I certainly understand why He would do that. Thats what the flood was all about too.
God, just like a father, loves His children, but punishes them when they disobey His rules. Simple.
And yes, you are right, God is pretty clear about it, a life of sin gets you a ticket to hell, sorry if you cant swallow that.
And peace? No such thing, nor will there ever be because of sin.
There is only one truth to the bible and its very obvious to millions of people. You have chosen to believe the lies and twists that the world has put on the Word of God, so it really doesnt matter what I say, you will constantly argue with me and mock the Word with your preconceptions of "the great spagetti monster". You have already made up your mind!
And you didnt answer my question, have you ever gone to church? A non denominational church.
Posted by Mr_Fiend There is only one truth to the bible and its very obvious to millions of people.
It is quite clear that it is not obvious, from the inumerable splintered sects of x-tianity, to the almost infinite reams of paper produced claiming to have a better interpretation, to the fact that most x-tians need a preacher to explain the meaning to them.
Posted by Mr_Fiend And you didnt answer my question, have you ever gone to church? A non denominational church.
I've spent a great deal of time in a denominational and non-denominational churches. Nothing I saw or learned there contradicts my position that faith is wrong because it allows unreasonable ideas to seep into our everyday lives and causes untold suffering for millions of people.
It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
Ethics
