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Here is something my ex was debating with me during our bible study.....should women be involved in the ministry?
This is his arguement against it,
1 Timothy 2:11-12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
but what do you think? Do you think that all parts of the bible must be obeyed? And if not how are we to pick and choose? My ex once disagreed with using the bible as the end all, thinking of it as more of a general guideline, but it seems that all of that has changed for him lately.
So I said "Why don't you shove it where the sun don't shine" and so he did. He put it in the cupboard under the stairs and it hasn't been mentioned since.
-Stephen Fry | |
You bring up an interesting point that has been brought up many times before, especially from my church elders when we were getting a female on our pastoral staff. I think that when Paul was writing to the Ephesians he was making use of the already established social rules. I have also read that a large number of Ephesian women were aggressively preaching flase doctrines and that Paul wrote this not as a permanent restriction but one that applied only to this particular situation.
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Posted by Irish
Here is something my ex was debating with me during our bible study.....should women be involved in the ministry?
This is his arguement against it,
1 Timothy 2:11-12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
but what do you think? Do you think that all parts of the bible must be obeyed? And if not how are we to pick and choose? My ex once disagreed with using the bible as the end all, thinking of it as more of a general guideline, but it seems that all of that has changed for him lately.
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In context, Paul was addressing a problem in the Ephesian church at the time. Women were basically being very disruptive during their services. However I can't remember exactly what it was all about, it's been a long time since I took New Testament History. Perhaps Katwoman could elaborate? I'm sure having just graduated from NWC that she might provide some more light on the issue.
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!!! How did you know that?
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I'm fairly good friends with Macguyver. So occasionally your name comes up. As far as the knowing of New Testament History and Literature, I went to NWC for my freshman and half my sophomore year. I remember Dr. Aaron talking about that very subject.
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Posted by Irish
1 Timothy 2:11-12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
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This is the kind of scriptures when the brain is supposed to start working and think "what is that non-sense" ?
If i was a girl, and some guy told me that i should learn quietness, full submission, not be permitted to teach, to be silent, hed be "laughed off the stage" This is taliban-like mindset... Do you not agree that this paragraph is taliban-esque?
Its like when you read the genesis, egyptians dont care about the jews running off in the desert until god controls their mind, makes them run after the jews, then drowns them all by flooding them from each side. You think what kind of gentle god would do stuff like this? This is when you start thinking, hey, maybe a gentle god didnt write all this after all, maybe it was some twisted human being who was hearing voices and wrote it down.
I am honestly not trying to start shit on your board, i am just expressing my opinion. I think we human being can reason and when we start taking thousand year old books literally, we are in trouble. I am just basically what do you think about this scripture? I think women should be loud, in full expression of what they feel, think. I think women should teach, and must be vocal.
I think one reason why some of the religious people who came to america thought that natives were demons, because women had all sorts of rights that were not to be seen in the "civilized" western world for a few centuries.
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Don't forget Revenant that they had a much different mentality and culture way back then. For example, the idea of freedom was first used by the Greeks and only for its citizens. The idea of women's rights at least in Canada were first truly established in 1914 (?) here in Manitoba when women were allowed for the first time to vote.
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Yeah i can understand that. But someone who takes that scripture seriously in 2004 is really backward, and if he increments it one notch, trying to enforce it, dangerous.
I personnally am atheist/agnostic but admire some religious folks like Jean bertrand Aristide, Desmond Tutu, Martin Luther King, Oscar romero, and plenty more, so its not like im a hater of religious folks.
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Posted by Irish
Here is something my ex was debating with me during our bible study.....should women be involved in the ministry?
This is his arguement against it,
1 Timothy 2:11-12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
but what do you think? Do you think that all parts of the bible must be obeyed? And if not how are we to pick and choose? My ex once disagreed with using the bible as the end all, thinking of it as more of a general guideline, but it seems that all of that has changed for him lately.
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I think your ex's quote from Timothy needs to be argued with. Most definately!
My ex mother in law is an Episcopal deacon.
NO ONE should have authority over anyone!
The more things change, the more they stay the same | |
Posted by metalwitch
NO ONE should have authority over anyone!
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Then you would have rampant chaos and anarchy.
You may want to clarify your statement there.
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clarify what?
The more things change, the more they stay the same | |
Heck, a lot of the early Church ministers *were* women. Although the Bible is the inspired Word of God, that word was filtered through men, in this case a former Rabbi named Paul. Paul was writing a letter to his student, not intending it to be holy writ (even though it became so). I think this particular passage might be more Paul's personal opinion than a divinely-inspired pronouncement of truth for all time. Of course, that's just me.
"Well, let me just jump into my time machine, go back to the Twelfth Century and ask the vampires to postpone their ancient prophecy for a few days while you take in dinner and a show." | |
Posted by katwoman
Then you would have rampant chaos and anarchy.
You may want to clarify your statement there.
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I think in the context of the discussion, she was referring to the implication that scripture advocates women to "shut up and follow men" on all matters spiritual and mundane. I don't think (and I may be wrong) that she advocates an anarchal form of governance.
Anarchists actually have a bit of a heirarchal structure which they impose on themselves so that community rules can be enforced. They do have some assumptions about resources which I disagree with, but is necessary for it to happen.
Some South American tribes have an anarchal form of self governance which has been working well for them, but they don't have food supply issues or a materialistic community view.
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Posted by Watcher
Heck, a lot of the early Church ministers *were* women. Although the Bible is the inspired Word of God, that word was filtered through men, in this case a former Rabbi named Paul. Paul was writing a letter to his student, not intending it to be holy writ (even though it became so). I think this particular passage might be more Paul's personal opinion than a divinely-inspired pronouncement of truth for all time. Of course, that's just me.
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I think that this is absolutely correct. In addition to this is the fact that something like the "women's liberation" as we know it in North America was allowed by God. How is it that in less than a hundred years in Canada, a "male dominance" mentality that has been hard wired into the psyche of men and women for millenia, is suddenly turned on it's head? Sounds like divine intervention to me.
I've always considered the Bible to be an interpretive device. We have to be careful, however, how much we stray from the words that God handed to us through our forefathers.
.... I guess what I'm trying to say is that, the times, they are a-changing, and while God is keeping up and guiding us, his book is in print, and is lagging behind. People tend to get upset about changes to "great works" in media. Wether it's Star Wars, classic literature, or The Bible... people don't like changes. Maybe the people who God is telling to write new books just have their ears closed to him.
It's a drag, it's a bore, it's really such a pitty
To be lookin' at the board, not lookin' at the city. | |
Yes! women should be in the ministry. "women can do anything men can do, except for going pee standing up"
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Posted by monster
Yes! women should be in the ministry. "women can do anything men can do, except for going pee standing up"
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From some of the drunken ladies I've seen around campus, woman can do ANYTHING men do.
So I said "Why don't you shove it where the sun don't shine" and so he did. He put it in the cupboard under the stairs and it hasn't been mentioned since.
-Stephen Fry | |
Posted by IrishLady
From some of the drunken ladies I've seen around campus, woman can do ANYTHING men do.
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That is something I never wanted to know...
"Well, let me just jump into my time machine, go back to the Twelfth Century and ask the vampires to postpone their ancient prophecy for a few days while you take in dinner and a show." | |
Posted by IrishLady
From some of the drunken ladies I've seen around campus, woman can do ANYTHING men do.
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ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!
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Posted by IrishLady
Here is something my ex was debating with me during our bible study.....should women be involved in the ministry?
This is his arguement against it,
1 Timothy 2:11-12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
but what do you think? Do you think that all parts of the bible must be obeyed? And if not how are we to pick and choose? My ex once disagreed with using the bible as the end all, thinking of it as more of a general guideline, but it seems that all of that has changed for him lately.
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I must have ripped that page from my Bible. And then burned it and then scattered the ashes to the four winds.
If THAT is a serious rationale for excluding women from the ministry, I'd suggest starting your own religion and using men as slaves.
"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
PICS | |
Posted by IrishLady
1 Timothy 2:11-12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
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His word - not God's.
Science flies you to the Moon. Religion flies you into tall buildings. |
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