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UER Forum > Forum Announcements > I'm Back! (Viewed 86139 times)
blackhawk 

This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.


Location: Mission Control
Total Likes: 3899 likes


UER newbie

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 140 on 5/27/2006 2:37 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by Sinister Crayon
For all of you who say it is Av's site you are not 100% right, He may own the site, but he does not, and can not, control 100% of it. I have a quote for you:




If he pulls the plug I'd say that's pretty much 100%.

I have a true story for you. I had a business once where my biggest account took an attitude similar to what you, and your quote are expressing. I just provide them with a service, they are the customer, and as such they dictate all the terms and rates, take it or leave it. No it was my service, and while I was willing to compromise, I was not going to be strong-armed into a weak position. I shut them and that business down cold one day, just like that.

It was a stone cold pleasure, and I still grin thinking about it. I was in control, 100%.





Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
'Dukes 

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 141 on 5/27/2006 2:44 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Anyone remember what the argument was about? ..............Probably not.
Like I said, the detractors didn't hate this site; they just saw room for improvement, right or wrong.

The "ironhanded" thing comes into play when opinion is treated as "spam" or "trolling"

If it was me I would just say "thanks for the input; duly noted". And I am betting that things would have continued on peacefully.

Discourse attracts more discourse. Always has and always will.





I got your tour winner right here pussies, at least he'd crash out trying.
Sinister Crayon 


Location: Colorado
Gender: Male
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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 142 on 5/27/2006 5:13 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by blackhawk
If he pulls the plug I'd say that's pretty much 100%.


Yeah, but knowing Av, thats not gonna happen soon. He's put a lot of hard work and dedication into this community, and it's not leaving anytime soon. He may get pressured into reform though. It needs to happen, kinda like the Level 3 system that was implemented last year.

EDIT: it's ok to thank av for this wonderful, well engineered site. (thanks av ) but all of the ass kissing is making me sick.



[last edit 5/27/2006 5:14 AM by Sinister Crayon - edited 1 times]

HillbillyHorus 


Location: Charlottesville Virginia
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Im in ur government, killin ur d00dz

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 143 on 5/27/2006 1:26 PM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by turbozutek
Yes, I see them... Like litter in my front yard, they are ever present. Which flashlight is best? Who explores at night? Who explores with a dog? Has NY1 SeEn this cool Old BildiNgZ? LOL!
To paraphrase the content in a few of the better threads lately.


There's only so much you can say about a hobby. I mean, urban exploration isn't something that leaves a ton of room for discussion. When I first got here, I thought each thread was so cool and there was so much to talk about inbetween explorations, but after 6-months the threads kind of cycle through . . . That's not really anyone's fault, it's just something inherrent in discussing an outdoor activity on the internet.




You can't fall off a mountain.
TurboZutek 

King Dick


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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 144 on 5/27/2006 1:57 PM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by Horus
There's only so much you can say about a hobby. I mean, urban exploration isn't something that leaves a ton of room for discussion. When I first got here, I thought each thread was so cool and there was so much to talk about inbetween explorations, but after 6-months the threads kind of cycle through . . . That's not really anyone's fault, it's just something inherrent in discussing an outdoor activity on the internet.


That can't be denied Horus. Even older threads such as flashlight threads have a place, given that so much can change in the field of flashlight technology in the space of a few weeks; let alone six months. So, while it may have been discussed earlier, coming around again because it's changed somewhat is normal.

I use flashlights purely as an example, of course.

However, if you take a good hard look at what type of post / thread you are getting?? 50% of these could have been prevented with the use of the 'search' button - and I think a great deal of the interaction / threadge currently is being posted / coming from people who really don't explore, that well, often, anywhere of interest [barring the baseline subjectivity of the term], or ever.

That too, is fine - as long as it's recognised for what it is: a bunch of non-explorers talking a good game.

A discussion on ANY subject is only as good as the people discussing it make it - and that's why bannination of our longer term members and good explorers becomes a problem. That's why the feeling that you would rather not post for fear of flame / admin reprisal is a problem.

How do we address these problems effectively?? I'm personally not 100% sure, but I know it DOES NOT start with denying there is a problem, banning dissenters and blustering over any argument with 'wahh wahh, it's blah blah's site and get bent'.

Maybe, if there was some kinda' group to advise on issues like this??

/wow, that's a new idea!

You say things cycle around and that's damn true - but that DOES NOT mean it has to be the same old, same old.

Take this thread of mine as an example:

http://www.uer.ca/...d=1&threadid=22971

That is an OLD location. It used to be hosted on the LDB - and pretty much EVERYONE has seen it. However, with a little thought and preparation I wrapped it up into something new.

Now, I'm not saying that is the ultimate thread to end all threads, I'm just attempting to point out that with a little thought you can create threads of interest - WITHOUT asking questions twice and posting the same old crap.

While that was once considered the rule - now it's more like the exception.

Chris...




We all had ostriches. My dad had an ostrich farm! I remember one day someone came in and said the high altitude bombing of Kosovo had been a limited success, so we all went out and celebrated… by killing an ostrich and boiling it in kiwi fruit.
Raticus 

Moderator


Location: Tyler
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 120 likes


Ratus exploricus abandonae

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 145 on 5/27/2006 4:33 PM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
I have one question. Why is so much time and energy being spent on worrying about how the website works, to the point that we are no longer focusing on what the website is about, Urban Exploration? By the way, it's a rhetorical question, no response or answer is really wanted or needed here.

But think about it folks, someone made the comment earlier about and "outside" activity being discussed on the "inside" internet. Every time I see a thread that goes 8 pages or more on the debate of the qualities or changes on this site, I have to ask, why?

Nothing on this site can take the place of the adrenaline and awe of exploring an abandoned site. This site is nothing more than what the title says, an Urban Exploration Resource. Think of what I'm saying like this "car" analogy. A car (or vehicle of your choice) is a resource to get you around town. If you spend all your time and energy on the paint job and the boom box and you never focus attention on the tires and motor, your resource becomes an object of attention, rather than a resource for travel.

If we spend all our time worrying about features and functions of the website (the paint job) we're forgetting about where the rubber meets the road, which in this case is out in the field, exploring sites.

This is the best website I've found anywhere to be used as a resource to add to my exploring experience. The rest of it is just the paint job. Nothing at all wrong with suggestions for improvements, comments, and even complaints. But I have to say, in all honesty, the problem here (whether some will admit it or not) is not that people expressed concerns or dissent, it is that they went off on a war path that continued for too long in some cases and it became a personal attack on a lot of folks on the site, not just Av.

I know of no one who has been banned for having an opinion that was different than anyone elses. These "old timers" if you will, spewed some very offensive personal attacks at Av, the site, and a lot of the regular members. And yes, calling them "babies" may not be the worst I've seen, but it certainly doesn't pull them over to your way of thinking, does it.

I don't chime in too often on these discussions. My only goal here, really, is to get you to just think about it. In the business world there is a buzz phrase of "continuous improvement" that can be applied to almost anything. This site, like all others, can be continually improved from now on as new ideas come forward and technology improves. However, the "roots" of this whole thing is exploring.

UER, deggi5, the internet, and my laptop may all have a major malfunction and be gone tomorrow. But my exploration will not go away. Do you see what I mean? Exploration is not dependant on this or any other site. So I really can't see that it should draw this much time and attention about who get's what and who doesn't.

I wish that you would just read my thoughts and agree or disagree without going back into all the same ole rehash. But, there it is, trash me if you will.



[last edit 5/27/2006 4:36 PM by Raticus - edited 1 times]

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools speak because they have to say something.
Jef 

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Hey Look at me....

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 146 on 5/27/2006 8:04 PM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by Raticus
I have one question. Why is so much time and energy being spent on worrying about how the website works, to the point that we are no longer focusing on what the website is about, Urban Exploration? By the way, it's a rhetorical question, no response or answer is really wanted or needed here.

But think about it folks, someone made the comment earlier about and "outside" activity being discussed on the "inside" internet. Every time I see a thread that goes 8 pages or more on the debate of the qualities or changes on this site, I have to ask, why?

Nothing on this site can take the place of the adrenaline and awe of exploring an abandoned site. This site is nothing more than what the title says, an Urban Exploration Resource. Think of what I'm saying like this "car" analogy. A car (or vehicle of your choice) is a resource to get you around town. If you spend all your time and energy on the paint job and the boom box and you never focus attention on the tires and motor, your resource becomes an object of attention, rather than a resource for travel.

If we spend all our time worrying about features and functions of the website (the paint job) we're forgetting about where the rubber meets the road, which in this case is out in the field, exploring sites.

This is the best website I've found anywhere to be used as a resource to add to my exploring experience. The rest of it is just the paint job. Nothing at all wrong with suggestions for improvements, comments, and even complaints. But I have to say, in all honesty, the problem here (whether some will admit it or not) is not that people expressed concerns or dissent, it is that they went off on a war path that continued for too long in some cases and it became a personal attack on a lot of folks on the site, not just Av.

I know of no one who has been banned for having an opinion that was different than anyone elses. These "old timers" if you will, spewed some very offensive personal attacks at Av, the site, and a lot of the regular members. And yes, calling them "babies" may not be the worst I've seen, but it certainly doesn't pull them over to your way of thinking, does it.

I don't chime in too often on these discussions. My only goal here, really, is to get you to just think about it. In the business world there is a buzz phrase of "continuous improvement" that can be applied to almost anything. This site, like all others, can be continually improved from now on as new ideas come forward and technology improves. However, the "roots" of this whole thing is exploring.

UER, deggi5, the internet, and my laptop may all have a major malfunction and be gone tomorrow. But my exploration will not go away. Do you see what I mean? Exploration is not dependant on this or any other site. So I really can't see that it should draw this much time and attention about who get's what and who doesn't.

I wish that you would just read my thoughts and agree or disagree without going back into all the same ole rehash. But, there it is, trash me if you will.







We must also go out and meet the enemy before he reaches our shores. We must defeat him before he attacks us, before our cities are laid to waste.

William Lyon Mackenzie King, Prime Minister of Canada from 1921-1926, 1926-1930 and 1935-1948
CowboyPenner 


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URBEXMobile

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 147 on 5/27/2006 8:28 PM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by Raticus
I have one question. Why is so much time and energy being spent on worrying about how the website works, to the point that we are no longer focusing on what the website is about, Urban Exploration? By the way, it's a rhetorical question, no response or answer is really wanted or needed here.

But think about it folks, someone made the comment earlier about and "outside" activity being discussed on the "inside" internet. Every time I see a thread that goes 8 pages or more on the debate of the qualities or changes on this site, I have to ask, why?

Nothing on this site can take the place of the adrenaline and awe of exploring an abandoned site. This site is nothing more than what the title says, an Urban Exploration Resource. Think of what I'm saying like this "car" analogy. A car (or vehicle of your choice) is a resource to get you around town. If you spend all your time and energy on the paint job and the boom box and you never focus attention on the tires and motor, your resource becomes an object of attention, rather than a resource for travel.

If we spend all our time worrying about features and functions of the website (the paint job) we're forgetting about where the rubber meets the road, which in this case is out in the field, exploring sites.

This is the best website I've found anywhere to be used as a resource to add to my exploring experience. The rest of it is just the paint job. Nothing at all wrong with suggestions for improvements, comments, and even complaints. But I have to say, in all honesty, the problem here (whether some will admit it or not) is not that people expressed concerns or dissent, it is that they went off on a war path that continued for too long in some cases and it became a personal attack on a lot of folks on the site, not just Av.

I know of no one who has been banned for having an opinion that was different than anyone elses. These "old timers" if you will, spewed some very offensive personal attacks at Av, the site, and a lot of the regular members. And yes, calling them "babies" may not be the worst I've seen, but it certainly doesn't pull them over to your way of thinking, does it.

I don't chime in too often on these discussions. My only goal here, really, is to get you to just think about it. In the business world there is a buzz phrase of "continuous improvement" that can be applied to almost anything. This site, like all others, can be continually improved from now on as new ideas come forward and technology improves. However, the "roots" of this whole thing is exploring.

UER, deggi5, the internet, and my laptop may all have a major malfunction and be gone tomorrow. But my exploration will not go away. Do you see what I mean? Exploration is not dependant on this or any other site. So I really can't see that it should draw this much time and attention about who get's what and who doesn't.

I wish that you would just read my thoughts and agree or disagree without going back into all the same ole rehash. But, there it is, trash me if you will.


Excellent Post!!




TurboZutek 

King Dick


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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 148 on 5/27/2006 8:54 PM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Raticus, you make some excellent points and gave us a good, well thought out post (so good in fact, that it was re-posted again, in it's entirety, twice)!

Using your analogy then, it's time for us all to become a little more skilled at paintwork. It's also time for the car's owner to accept the car could use a T-Cut and Polish and allow us to WORK ON IT.

Or, as powerful as the engine is in this car - as nice as the seats, as well developed as the safety system is - even though the glove-box is FULL of everything we could need (porn mags, D-SLR's, Lock-picks etc etc) the first thing the public and the media see is this ridiculous, battered, shitty old car with the paint flaking off.

The passengers (UER membership) are uneasy riding in this car. We know it's basically mechanically sound... But it LOOKS like a death-trap.

The roots of UER is very much exploring - would you guess that from wandering the halls of the building that is UER? Would you mistake it for a Primary School or a State Hospital instead?

Take a fresh set of eyes - look at the LDB with it's accurate to THREE METRES GPS co-ords available, look at the forums with it's lack of good solid exploring based discourse, check out the member-list and see who's there...

Anyways, I've pretty much said enough in this thread, possibly too much. You can all lock it, delete it, steer it back in the direction of 14 year old girls... whatever... I would hope this has made us all think.

Because I seriously say this within the scope of 'continuous improvement' and not to stir shit or annoy.

Chris...




We all had ostriches. My dad had an ostrich farm! I remember one day someone came in and said the high altitude bombing of Kosovo had been a limited success, so we all went out and celebrated… by killing an ostrich and boiling it in kiwi fruit.
Raticus 

Moderator


Location: Tyler
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 120 likes


Ratus exploricus abandonae

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 149 on 5/27/2006 9:28 PM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Chris,

Thanks for the compliment on the post. And that goes for everyone who gave me the nod on it. And I do believe that your post is sincere and not really meant to stir up trouble. With that in mind, I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree, because frankly, I don't see UER as all that bad and broken down. As a passenger, I'm ok riding this bus to get to my destination. In fact, when I came to this site for the first time after looking at many sites on the internet, this one stood out as being above the rest. I'm not saying this because I'm a moderator. I was on here a long time before I was a mod. My first impression of this place was as a noob (to this site), not as a mod. I don't find it much different now than it was then. Maybe you've been here longer than I, maybe you see it through the eyes of different experiences.

All I'm saying is that for me, and I can only speak for me, it's a pretty damn good place to come and share and learn. That's basically what I use it for. A resource to share and learn. That's it. It ain't my life. Yeah, I can say "ain't" because I'm from Texas.

Lets keep working together to make it better. But let's don't get so hung up in it that we loose track of ourselves. To be honest, I learn a tremendous amount from all of you every week. Not about websites, about exploring. I read and read, and read. I don't usually read the posts about website complaints or issues because I'm not here for the website. I'm here to learn, to share my experiences, and to get to know people with similar interests. I might be wrong, but I just think if more of us look at it from that vantage point, some of the other stuff would become less significant.

Now rat is going skinny dipping in his new pool. Then to explore a building I've had my eyes on for a long time. Happy Explorations!!!

PS> Anyone who visits the eastern side of Texas is always welcome to come along with the gang of rats.




Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools speak because they have to say something.
DjMalign 


Location: Fort Collins, CO
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 3 likes


Sexy, sexy, sexy

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 150 on 5/28/2006 4:41 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
I'm gonna say this, and I hope I piss some people off, but I have to say it.

There are a lot of us who spend a lot of time contemplating this hobby of ours. we're drawn to it and have now found a community of people who supposedly share our interests.

However we all have very different ideas about what exploration is and what it means to us and how we do it.

The issue is control. UER, whether AV-X will admit it to himself or not, has grown into a phenomenon where it directly represents the community in the world view. If anyone looks to the internet for exploring old places they will come here. Its popularity is undeniable.

Then however you have different people who want to do different things. Some are knuckleheads who want to smash shit, some are artists who want to tag shit, some are just bored and want to start shit. Then there are people who really love exploration so much that sometimes because they see this beacon that supposedly defines their hobby and they want to control it.

Av-X has set his limits. While I dont agree with all the decisions he's made, its beyond my control at this point. I cannot control what he makes the site out to be, regardless of conflicting ideas about what it should represent and what information it should hold.

And why should he listen? While I have serious issues with him people have obsessively gone out of their way to demonize him. Made threats concerning him. Fuck, there are people DEDICATED to making shitty photoshop images of him doing stupid things. they call him a freak and a deviant. For fuck's sake, disagree with the guy sure but what would YOU do when people react to you like that? Would you WANT to work with them?

So as long as Av-X refuses to listen to people and other explorers obsess about making fun of every facet of his life NOTHING will be solved. Av-X does not support a worldwide community, and a LARGE chunk of the community will not support him. There is no trust because largely people have fallen for the games both Mike Dijital and Av-X play with eachother. Its just grown out of proportion. Are they bad people? Probably not.

I mentioned this once before, but the whole thread got deleted, so i'll mention it one more time. When people explore together they form a trust bond out of necessity. You have to watch eachother's back due to hazards from unsafe structures to territorial squatters etc. The community forgets that and become poo-flinging monkeys when they get behind this fucking screen.

So until everyone grows the fuck up nothing changes. the community will be the cliques it has become. maybe its better that way. But at the very least AV, the reason you have dissent is because UER is the definer of online exploration. and that makes some people jealous, but most of the time it worries some of us, and as long as there is no open dialogue you will always have issues with users.





I hate all of you
Avatar-X 

Alpha Husky


Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 608 likes


yay!

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 151 on 5/28/2006 4:43 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Hey guys, I just got back home, and I am glad to see this thread has remained mostly civil.

Guess what I did? That's right -- I drove some 550 clicks today, down to Buffalo and back. I explored an amazing steel company, a missile silo, and an incredible system of caves, with people I met through UER.

I had an awesome time.

I don't care what you guys have to say about me or UER or how much you hate the LDB or how much this sucks or that sucks.

I just had an amazing day, and it wouldn't have been possible if UER wasn't here. That's what UER means to me, and that's why I'm not gonna let anyone take it away from me.

-av




huskies - such fluff.
'Dukes 

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At least someone llikes me

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 152 on 5/28/2006 4:56 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Sounds like a good time; I partied with 70 yo retirees; almost fell asleep in their back yard it was so quiet.God was it nice.


Av; keep your last statement in mind the next time you tell me to get bent , me and the rest of the jerks here are just looking to help, not hurt.




I got your tour winner right here pussies, at least he'd crash out trying.
The_Man_in_Black 


Location: Near Buffalo
Gender: Male
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Rodents Of Unusual Size? I don't think they exist..

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 153 on 5/28/2006 5:09 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
I'm not privvy to everything that happens in back channels around here, but I don't think anyone here is interested in taking it away from you Av. They're just expressing their opinions about something that they, and you, both love.

TMiB




I miss ednothing.. and Glass.. and Seicer.. and Jester.. and Chainsaw.. and THD.. and Mike D.. and Crossfire.. and Noah Vale.. and Maynard.. and pixie.. and Mr. Yuk.. and Worm Wirsbo.. and Miss_Informed... and dev.. Rest In Peace, dev.
blackhawk 

This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.


Location: Mission Control
Total Likes: 3899 likes


UER newbie

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 154 on 5/28/2006 5:28 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
What's this then? Av's exploring heavy metal, 'Dukes patio lounging, and my armchair is so comfortable. Not.

Night/day mission begins, it's party time! Got my sights set on one big, bad Mama, but she's no lady. Av, I think you know her, you were playing with her kid sister!




Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
Axle 


Location: Milton, ON
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 506 likes


Sieg oder Tod

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 155 on 5/28/2006 12:51 PM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Agreed, UER is about the people we have met through here, not the internal grumblings and political nonsense.




Celer at Audax
Para la Victoria Siempre Alemanes!
Raticus 

Moderator


Location: Tyler
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 120 likes


Ratus exploricus abandonae

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 156 on 5/28/2006 1:52 PM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Wow. I'm encouraged by most of the posts on this page. If we keep this up, we just might get along and get some constructive things done.




Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools speak because they have to say something.
DiVaMoNKeY 


Location: Grundy County, IL
Gender: Female
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I pushed with all my might; I pushed with all my love.

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 157 on 5/28/2006 3:43 PM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
I know I'm kinda late jumping in on this conversation, but I have an idea. Instead of all the whining and complaining about the "bannings" maybe AV could develop some sort of feature on here where if someone is trolling or starting bullshit, members can simply "ignore" them. You know, create an ignore icon.

I know it's sorta lame, but I think if people are being total dipshits and we have the ability to ignore what they are saying, they'll probably give up and move on.

On another note, I've only been a member of UER for a few months, but have been practicing the hobby for years (i never knew there was an official name for it - let alone a web site). I haven't had any problems for the most part. A few disagreements here and there and, of course, misunderstandings because it's difficult to decipher sarcasm in simple print.

I just hope everyone who got banned really deserved it and for those of you out there who are acting in a similar fashion, I hope they pay attention to this new precedent.

Have a lovely and super duper day!
~Meshell~




I know more about blood than you
-MisfitStyle- 


Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 91 likes




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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 158 on 5/28/2006 3:55 PM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by DiVaMoNKeY
I know I'm kinda late jumping in on this conversation, but I have an idea. Instead of all the whining and complaining about the "bannings" maybe AV could develop some sort of feature on here where if someone is trolling or starting bullshit, members can simply "ignore" them. You know, create an ignore icon.


This has been discussed in the past and I believe it was veto'd because it would create problems for users when they try to follow the flow of the conversation. What is everyone started suddenly discussing a post by someone you were "ignoring"? It would also be impossible for "ignore" any reactions to someone's trolling post, or to not still view their posts as quoted by other users.




"I feel like I just got in a battle of wits with some kid in a helmet I found licking a window."

Need help? Please use the Contact a Mod forum — I'm slow to see PMs.
TurboZutek 

King Dick


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Giant octo-penised rapephant

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 159 on 5/28/2006 4:35 PM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by -MisfitStyle-

This has been discussed in the past and I believe it was veto'd because it would create problems for users when they try to follow the flow of the conversation. What is everyone started suddenly discussing a post by someone you were "ignoring"? It would also be impossible for "ignore" any reactions to someone's trolling post, or to not still view their posts as quoted by other users.


Actually something like that 'feature' has been around for a while - but only globally. Av has a 'troll' button which makes all posts by a user only visible to the user himself, while hiding them from the rest of the board.

Essentially, the troll can have a million troll posts, but only he can see them and eventually wonders why no one is taking the bait and wanders off to die.

That's the theory anyways!

Chris...




We all had ostriches. My dad had an ostrich farm! I remember one day someone came in and said the high altitude bombing of Kosovo had been a limited success, so we all went out and celebrated… by killing an ostrich and boiling it in kiwi fruit.
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