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UER Forum > Forum Announcements > I'm Back! (Viewed 86138 times)
Avatar-X 

Alpha Husky


Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 608 likes


yay!

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 40 on 5/25/2006 2:04 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Thanks for all the support, everyone. The pictures are very cute.

Freak: For once, I agree with what you said, at least a small part of it. Over the last 4 months, "what i want" has changed several times. Here is a quick timeline:

- First, I wanted UER to be the best UE site for all explorers, worldwide, and that it should appeal to everyone. But this let in a lot of "armchair explorers" and vandals
- Then, I wanted UER to appeal to most people, but more aimed at serious explorers (full member system)
- Then, I wanted UER to be a self-policing democracy, but this didn't really work out, even in it's initial stages
- Then, I gave UER to the mods so they could control it, but that didn't really work out either.
- Finally, we arrive at now, and now is: UER is here for anyone who wishes to use but not abuse it. If you cause trouble, you will be warned and then banned. If you disrespect a moderator or administrator, you will be banned. No longer will any shit be tolerated.

It's a very simple policy, and nobody should have any trouble following it.

-av




huskies - such fluff.
TurboZutek 

King Dick


Location: Scotland
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Giant octo-penised rapephant

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 41 on 5/25/2006 2:07 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Also, there is the fundamental question... What is UER??

No, really, WHAT IS UER?

Previously it was a resource in the truest sense of the word - while not perfect it generally rolled along and adapted to its user's needs fairly readily. New features were introduced in response to requests and overall, it was all good.

Friendships were made and people explored.

What is UER now??

Well, no one's quite sure. It's no longer adaptable or resilient. It's brittle and inflexible. It's unfair and asinine.

In short - it's no longer resourceful. It's nearly redundant.

It's a burger bar that doesn't serve burgers.


So yes Av, it's your site. That's IT matey, in a nutshell, it's your site. Community it isn't and resourceful it ain't.

So rock on, you now have a site - pity, you used to have SO MUCH more.

Chris...

Edit: Av posted just before I did, in review of his post - I'm changing nothing in mine.



[last edit 5/25/2006 2:08 AM by TurboZutek - edited 1 times]

We all had ostriches. My dad had an ostrich farm! I remember one day someone came in and said the high altitude bombing of Kosovo had been a limited success, so we all went out and celebrated… by killing an ostrich and boiling it in kiwi fruit.
Avatar-X 

Alpha Husky


Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 608 likes


yay!

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 42 on 5/25/2006 2:11 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
I still add lots of new features in response to user requests. Check the other posts in this section, if you don't believe me.

Also, there's a huge community here. Check out the rest of the site. Hundreds of new posts are entered every day.

Maybe you no longer enjoy the community or make use of the resources, but you quite obviously do not speak for everyone.

To put it simply: UER is not for you. It is you who does not fit, not UER.

-av




huskies - such fluff.
David E 


Location: San Francisco, CA
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Do not believe everything you see on TV.

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 43 on 5/25/2006 2:13 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Sad thing about all this, so many people are wrong while so many are right. It is just a son of a gun figuring it all out.

David




FREE THE UER 6! DOWN WITH UER LACKEYS! And to the mod that changed my sig, blow me!
TurboZutek 

King Dick


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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 44 on 5/25/2006 2:22 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by Avatar-X
I still add lots of new features in response to user requests. Check the other posts in this section, if you don't believe me.


This is very true - and I wouldn't deny it. If I had half your skill in web based coding?? I would be a very rich man.

Posted by Avatar-X
Also, there's a huge community here. Check out the rest of the site. Hundreds of new posts are entered every day.


Yes, I see them... Like litter in my front yard, they are ever present. Which flashlight is best? Who explores at night? Who explores with a dog? Has NY1 SeEn this cool Old BildiNgZ? LOL!

To paraphrase the content in a few of the better threads lately.

Posted by Avatar-X
Maybe you no longer enjoy the community or make use of the resources, but you quite obviously do not speak for everyone.


I certainly do not speak for everyone - and would never purport to do so. I'm speaking for a majority of GOOD (and also, mostly... banned!) explorers.

Av honestly, have a look around. There are some great people standing beside you - but for each and every one of those people there are 10 fourteen year old kids who wouldn't know how to explore a room they were locked in!

Is that what a UER is?? A resource for... eh... what?! Who!?

Posted by Avatar-X
To put it simply: UER is not for you. It is you who does not fit, not UER.


Could be. All the good explorers you banned could be dead wrong too. It's certainly possible that every respected explorer with a differing opinion to yours is just totally wrong.

It's possible that the way UER is now is perfect. It's possible that the fighting will end now and your 'community' can advance.

However, I must point out that it's ALSO equally possible that I have an invisible purple beard.

Chris...




We all had ostriches. My dad had an ostrich farm! I remember one day someone came in and said the high altitude bombing of Kosovo had been a limited success, so we all went out and celebrated… by killing an ostrich and boiling it in kiwi fruit.
Avatar-X 

Alpha Husky


Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 608 likes


yay!

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 45 on 5/25/2006 2:27 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
I don't really care how "respected" an explorer is or whether or not they rate as "good" on some arbitrary scale. They have no more right to tell (tell, not ask) me what to do with my site than a 14-year-old who can't even explore his basement.

UER is not an exclusive club. We do not discriminate based on age or "relative worth", as to what makes any one particular explorer "good".


There have been plenty of great threads lately all over UER. It's a shame you can't see them.

-av




huskies - such fluff.
TurboZutek 

King Dick


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Giant octo-penised rapephant

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 46 on 5/25/2006 2:41 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by Avatar-X
I don't really care how "respected" an explorer is or whether or not they rate as "good" on some arbitrary scale. They have no more right to tell (tell, not ask) me what to do with my site than a 14-year-old who can't even explore his basement.


uh huh. Now, when you chase away any explorer worth a shit? What do you have then?

Without 'good' explorers (and that can be as arbitary as you like) who advises the noobs? Who posts the pics?? Who makes the topics interesting? Who makes UER a RESOURCE!??

Yes, it's a driving school with no instructors, a nonscence.

You seem to take issue with anyone having an opinion on how UER is run (except the late Ninj.)... So in your head Av, it's not a suggestion from a member, it's an unfair demand and you react accordingly.

Just admit it's been some bad handling of situations like that in the past (all round) and we can move on. Unban some people, patch rifts and let's forget this abortion of a flamefest that the last couple of months has been. hmmm?

Posted by Avatar-X
UER is not an exclusive club. We do not discriminate based on age or "relative worth", as to what makes any one particular explorer "good".


No, UER is not an exclusive club - never has been, even in the days when it was a good forum and a genuine resource.

As for relative worth, how about the basics - 'explores' or 'does not explore and claims to' because if you remove the latter, then the 14 year old kid problem would be dramatically reduced.

You might pull back a bit of respect for UER.

Posted by Avatar-X
There have been plenty of great threads lately all over UER. It's a shame you can't see them.

-av


I can see a few, but it's no comparison to a few months ago... A year ago... I know all things slow down after a while - but they should never approach stopping.

Chris...





We all had ostriches. My dad had an ostrich farm! I remember one day someone came in and said the high altitude bombing of Kosovo had been a limited success, so we all went out and celebrated… by killing an ostrich and boiling it in kiwi fruit.
yokes 


Location: Toronto
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I aim to misbehave

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 47 on 5/25/2006 2:45 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Last time I checked, "experienced explorer" isn't synomynous with "asshole". If all the assholes are banned, I'd be confident that there would remain many elder statesmen to guide the noobs.




"Great architecture has only two natural enemies: water and stupid men." - Richard Nickel
Avatar-X 

Alpha Husky


Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 608 likes


yay!

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 48 on 5/25/2006 2:51 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Sure, I've made many mistakes in the past, and I have no problem admitting to that and apologizing when necessary.

Right now I don't see anyone who should be unbanned.

-av




huskies - such fluff.
TurboZutek 

King Dick


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Giant octo-penised rapephant

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 49 on 5/25/2006 2:56 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
/Stretches.

Ok, whatever you think. It's 4am UK time, the sun is coming up and I'm off to bed!

I'm going to contribute to this brave new community by sleeping. Tomorrow's a new day (excepting time zone variance)!

Night!

Chris...




We all had ostriches. My dad had an ostrich farm! I remember one day someone came in and said the high altitude bombing of Kosovo had been a limited success, so we all went out and celebrated… by killing an ostrich and boiling it in kiwi fruit.
42NNN 


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Yes, thats me....Yes, I am in a toilet

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 50 on 5/25/2006 2:57 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
ive only been here a short time but welcome back AV




And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.-the lords prayer
White Rabbit 

Women's Advocate


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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 51 on 5/25/2006 3:01 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by Avatar-X
We also had the oversight of Ninj back then. We don't anymore. Unfortunatly, this is not a situation I can fix. I am nothing compared to Ninj --- he would have been able to fix this situation to everyone's content. I can only do what I think is right.


You're right. Ninj was almost supernaturally able to come up with an amicable solution to any problem. I don't think anyone on the forum could compete with Ninj's wisdom.

But although you can't consult Ninj anymore, there is some aspect of that relationship that you can continue. And that's being more open to differing opinions. I mean no disrespect by this, but we all know you can be pretty stubborn. And when you were really set on something, Ninj often seemed to be the only person who could sway you. While not everyone is going to be spot on all the time like Ninj was, there's definitely people you should listen to sometimes.

Besides that, though, I remember in my brief time in the admin forum how much Ninj used to hammer on the rules being EXTREMELY clear and being enforced fairly. He was also huge on free speech, open discussion, and not jumping immediately to banning. And a lot of that doesn't seem to be going on right now. People are afraid to question you on things (hell, I'm still afraid I'm gonna get canned), and some of the rules seem to be getting enforced differently to different people.

I really ain't trying to rag on you, Av, or make you mad. And believe it or not, I want UER to be awesome. I think a strong UER is good for the whole community. I think having a worldwide community of explorers at our fingertips is good for us. But I think things are worse than your poll are letting on if so many prominent members of that community have disengaged themselves from it. It can't be because they're ALL assholes, right?



[last edit 5/25/2006 3:05 AM by White Rabbit - edited 1 times]

Underground Ozarks http://www.undergroundozarks.com
Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Kansas
m.r.makaveli 


Location: Utica
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Let's get down to brass tacks. How much for the ape?

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 52 on 5/25/2006 3:32 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Just wanted to say... Welcome Back Av




There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
-MisfitStyle- 


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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 53 on 5/25/2006 3:40 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
There's a thought that's been swirling around in my head lately that I hope I can articulate here clearly.

One of the problems, as I see it, is that UER has always been forced to strike a balance between dealing with someone as a person and an explorer, and dealing with that same person as a forum user. Yes, many prominent (I hesitate to use subjective terminology like 'great' and the like) explorers have been banned in recent weeks. However, that doesn't change the fact that they were banned for being terrible forum users, not based on what sort of explorers they are.

It seems silly to me to sit here and argue that people should be kept around because they are great explorers, or because they can advise new people. Other people will (and have) arise who will foster intelligent discussion and who will help their fellow explorers. Hell, many of those people have always been here and always will be. But, should we keep a troll around on the forum, simply because they explore? I think not.

I won't argue over whether or not certain bannings have been fair. There are those that I believe were right and others that I disagree with. However, I feel it necessary to point out that each banning has related to that person as a user of this site, not based on their standing within the UE community as a whole.

(I hope that made sense to anyone else but me at this late hour.)

While I personally disagree with the closing of the Site Concerns/Forum Issues section, I can understand the reasoning behind it. Whether it be through a forum, or through PM's to the moderating team, there needs to be discussion ongoing about this community and the users in it. Ask anyone, I'm probably the first one to want to run this place like a bit of a tighter ship. However, that shouldn't mean removing discussion entirely. I do hope the members of UER will feel free to PM the mods with any problems they may have.

That's all I can manage to put into words for now.




"I feel like I just got in a battle of wits with some kid in a helmet I found licking a window."

Need help? Please use the Contact a Mod forum — I'm slow to see PMs.
blackhawk 

This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.


Location: Mission Control
Total Likes: 3899 likes


UER newbie

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 54 on 5/25/2006 3:48 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
I have not been here that long. I have interacted with AV numerous times via PM, and email. Once over a dispute that I was pretty wound up about. He spent a lot of time trying to make it right. I found that there were good reasons for the policy I was questioning, even so Av did not lose patience with me. After he realized it was important to me, he did the best he could, and clearly explained what the limits of what he could do, and why.


He spent more time than it was worth with me on that one single problem, just as he's doing tonight with each posting on this thread. In PMs, and in posts I seen Av offer praise, apologise for mistakes, and spent an enormous amount of time interacting with everyone. What more can you reasonably ask from one person?


It's rude, and improper to insult a owner of a company... or website, even more so to do it in a public forum. I know I have my own business. If you give me a hard way to go, your gone. I like work and money, but I'm not drinking your piss for it!

More posts, and PMs of "thank you", "I made a mistake I'm sorry", or just not always raising shit over every change made, as soon as it's made would be a nice gesture of appreciation to Av, and the Mods.

-Don't expect respect if you don't give it-





Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
scribbledaway 


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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 55 on 5/25/2006 3:51 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
it's true that the quickest, easiest way to eliminate all discord is to just huck out the offender. someone argues...out they go. someone is too confrontational...PEACE! someone disagrees with av...dont let the door hit you in the ass. but at best all that is is a bandaid.


it can really suck when you have numbers of people all hassling at you to fix this, change that, undo this, redo that,he said she said did not did too drama drama drama drama drama till gunning them all down seems like a pretty sweet idea. and when it gets like that, going "well fine, anyone who doesnt like it can get the fuck out" is definitely the best way to get rid of the headache. but it's not going to get rid of the underlying problem. it's like taking aspirin for a brain tumor. it might sooth the ache for a little while but eventually it's going to eat it's way through and then you're gonna crash and burn, baby. done.

if uer gradually loses the majority of its experienced explorers, who for whatever reason are generally the people who tend to be the most confrontational, it wont be a resource anymore. it'll be a wannabe explorers bulletin board with no redeeming quaility beyond killing time for a bunch of kids who want to make people think they explore.

yeah av, it has good features. and a worldwide gathering place for explorers, new and old, is a great thing to have. but you cant just throw out the people who question you. if they didnt like the site, they wouldnt question. if they didnt care, they wouldnt have a word to say because well..they wouldnt care! they're complaining because they see something bad happening. they're going to you because it's your site and you're the only one with the power to change it. they're telling you what they think BECAUSE they respect the fact that it's your board, your site, your baby. they don't leave till you ban them because they dont want to, because they really DONT hate uer, even if they bitch about it. when people hate something, they leave it. if they're still here it's because they want to be, regardless of what they might say. so maybe hearing what it is they're actually saying to you would open up some new avenues for potential ways to smooth the site over again. you dont have to agree with them, but it wouldnt hurt to listen to them, and rather than take their comments and criticisms as attacks, demands, and disharmony, spin them to a more positive direction and take them as alternate ideas and other peoples thoughts. and if something doesnt seem like it'd work to you, why not just say "this is why i dont think that would work" rather than "shut up, get out."?

it's not my site, but if it was me in your position, i'd be raking in all the help i could get. no lie. instead of banning these people i'd be putting them to work fixing what they think is broken.

thats my bit. take it however you will, use it, question it, disregard it, dismiss it, ban me, whatever it is you feel you need to do. but keep in mind that no matter how many people you throw out, it's like bailing out a sinking ship with a teaspoon. sooner or later, if you dont get a good handle on the situation, with a lot of hands on deck, you're gonna go down.

sorry for all the analogies. i seem to be in that kind of space tonight.

however, you could totally come back at me with a "too many cooks" analogy or one of those cowboys and indians ones....really it could get beyond weird.

for what it's worth, in my opinion you flew off the handle and banned some good explorers, some good members, out of frustration. and if the place is frustrating you that much, can you really fix it alone?




www.visceralaxis.net

If it’s too loud, go to the other end of the Market, down the stairs, to the waterfront, drown yourself. "...I become oblivious to the obvious, just ridiculous."
Jupiter 

Moderator


Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
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Boffo's alright... for now.

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 56 on 5/25/2006 5:22 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Well, since everyone else is throwing in their two cents...

I'll preface this by saying...

1) This is Av's site. He can do with it whatever he wants, even if everyone disagrees with him. Tomorrow he can have inappropriate pictures of furries dancing around your screen, and there's not anything we can do about it.

2) As a result, I understand Av is in charge, and although the following are my opinions, that's just it. I would hope that they're read and acknowledged, but if they're not, so be it. I'm happy to continue being a mod and let Av run the site however he sees fit.

That said...

I remember when I first joined the site. A long long time ago. And although everyone respected Ninj immensely, which was true of me too, when I first joined I thought of Av on the same level as I did Ninj. I'd never met him, but this was the guy who put UER together! I had tremendous respect for him.

Despite joining basically at the inception of UER, I really didn't actually come out to a meet until just over a year ago (March 2005). At this meet it was the first time I met Av, and Ninj. I felt starstruck. And I really appreciated when I was the new guy, not knowing anyone, how Av went out of his way to greet me and make me feel welcomed.

As time went on, I got to know Av better. As what happens with anyone as you get to know them better, there are characteristics that you appreciate, and some that annoy you. But regardless of these things (Stop throwing things at me Av! Please!), I started to consider him a friend, and the fact that he obviously thinks enough of me to make me a moderator means a lot to me.

When I became a mod, it was as a result of a large amount of mods leaving for a variety of reasons. However while all that drama was happening, I still don't remember the site being in the situation it is now. I don't remember people getting banned at a whim, I don't remember people fearing it.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't be banned. Using a quick example, Jester really should have. I don't doubt he's a fantastic explorer, but for the last few months he was here, he really did nothing but try to cause trouble. His posts were never anything constructive, they were simply making smart-ass remarks about the site and it's administration. If that's all you're doing, you SHOULD be banned.

But the comments in this thread are very telling. People saying "Please don't ban me." or prefacing what they say, which is obviously intended to be constructive, with a comment noting that they're not trolling in fear that it will be taken that way. Members should not have to fear that. Av, I'd think that I know you better than at least a good percentage of board members since I've met you and talked to you often, but hell, I fear that. And I know you'll say that there's no need to be worried about it, but whether there's a need to or not, there's a perceived need by the community as a whole, it seems.

Regarding the morale on this board, Av, you mentioned the results of the poll that people would rather get on with exploring than engage in politics as a sign that morale is fine. I'm not sure they're interrelated, and if they are, it doesn't say that people's morale regarding UER is fine, merely that they want to get on with exploring. To not engage in politics is fine, and a principle that I'd hope more people would believe in, but at the same time, if they're constantly worried about being banned, they're basically forced INTO the politics of the site.

Going back to my example, Av, I know you know there's a difference between the posts in this thread, as they haven't been deleted, and what Jester did. You must know, whether or not you agree with these posters, that they really are trying to be constructive and voicing their opinion for what can help UER. They're not just making cracks about the admin, or going on some silly "UER war". I'm sure you know this. But I'm not sure the members do. There are always going to be people who disagree with any decision you make. Banning Jester was going to get people upset, and they were vocal. But when Jester was banned, I, along with what I'm sure are others, didn't fear making comments that contradicted your beliefs. Jester was being a dick, and I figured as long as I'm not being a complete asshole, I'm fine, and I'm free to disagree with Av.

But since then, echoing Misfit, there's been bans I don't agree with. And going back to my preface, ultimately, you can ban whoever you want. Whether I agree with it or not isn't that important. But the problem becomes when we have all these people fearful to make posts that are critical, even if there's nothing that violates the TOS. They're showing complete respect for the mods and administration, even while disagreeing with them. And they're still afraid. So why is that?

Maybe it's unfounded paranoia... I mean, this thread still exists, no one has said anything to get them banned. Maybe it's legitimate. It doesn't really matter. If the community is scared to be banned, that's not good. It shows obviously a lot of support for UER - If you are worried about being banned, it's because you want to stay here, to support the community we've seen grow, and yes, whether I agree with this censorship or not, the site, and it's concept, kick ass. I don't want to go anywhere. But the fear DOES bring down morale among the explorers.

Finally, Av, I know it's been mentioned before, but I think everyone, including yourself, accepts that things were better around here while Ninj was still with us. And of course, nothing we can do is replace Ninj. But someone mentioned before that he was really the only one you would listen to, and Ninj, being the peaceful mediator he was, would listen to everyone else. So through his guidance and leadership, I think that time was better not just because of Ninj and what he meant to the community, but because, through him, you were listening to the members of UER, whether you realized it or not. He would settle people's differences with wisdom and compromise, and a hard line approach is not going to accomplish that. No, we can't replace Ninj. But we can learn from the person he was and try to emulate how he would have responded.

Can you tell me with complete honesty, Av, that if you thought to yourself "What would Ninj do?" you would come up with the policies that you're currently in support of?

Well... I've been typing for like 40 minutes putting my thoughts out there, so I guess I'll get off my soapbox. It seems doubtful anyone is going to read something this long anyway. I'll repeat what I said earlier. It IS your site and you CAN do with it what you want. I'm not denying that, I don't think that the internet is any sort of democracy. I'm just hoping to change what you want to do with it to what the community wants done with it. And I don't think the community wants to fear being kicked out of it.




Abandoned Planet
big dave 


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big baller

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 57 on 5/25/2006 6:39 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
What do you guys do if you are watching television, and you dont like whats on? You change the channel or press power, right? If you dont like the AvChannel, change it to something else or shut your TV off!




An armed society, is a polite society. So lets get to it!
Samurai 

Vehicular Lord Rick


Location: northeastern New York
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No matter where you go, there you are...

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 58 on 5/25/2006 8:06 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by ghostkilla
What do you guys do if you are watching television, and you dont like whats on? You change the channel or press power, right? If you dont like the AvChannel, change it to something else or shut your TV off!


after investing over two years into something, it's not that simple.
Thinking like this is oversimplistic at this point.

Samurai




Jupiter 

Moderator


Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
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Boffo's alright... for now.

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Re: I'm Back!
< Reply # 59 on 5/25/2006 8:17 AM >

Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by Samurai


after investing over two years into something, it's not that simple.
Thinking like this is oversimplistic at this point.

Samurai



It's true. UER is a big part of many of our lives.

Think of it more like this...

If your girlfriend did something that annoyed you, would you at least first try to sort it out? Or immediately break up with her?

If something in how things were being run at your job you didn't agree with, would you at least first try to change it before quitting?

When something is a big part of your life, you'd really rather work out your problems with it rather than react irrationally and immediately cut all ties with it. This was the same flaw used when people were saying "Support our president or get out of the country" ...Those people who were trying to change things loved their country, and wanted to see it prosper, they didn't want to give up on it. Admittedly, I just think the bannings and hard line approach are excessive, I'm not nearly at a point where I'd even consider leaving UER. I love this place. But I'm just clarifying here why the people who are criticizing are doing so. If they're doing so constructively and not trolling, that's a sign they care about UER and want to see it survive, when, in their opinion, it is dying.

If someone is trolling and just making fun of UER... then, yes. Tell them to get the fuck out.




Abandoned Planet
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