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 Dowcet
     
Location: Middletown, ct
 |  |  | Air Quality Question
< on 11/30/2005 4:09 AM >
|  | | | So, I have some basic caving experience, but am just beginning to try out drains and such.
I found one location that I really want to explore, but it seems questionable. These are large tunnels partly full of stagnant water and organic matter. The water is up to my waste in the middle, and the its the kind of mud that will suck your boot off your foot. At first it just smells like any damp cave or utility tunnel, but walking in it brings up small bubbles and that rotten egg smell. The tunnels seemed to slope slightly downward; I have no clue how long they go on for. the entrances are wide open.
I'm thinking of floating through these tunnels in a raft to avoid the mud. Hopefully I can paddle through without disturbing it, or maybe just push off the walls. My question is, does this sound safe? Does it make any sense to wear a half-face respirator approved for sulfur dioxide or is there a serious threat of finding no oxygen?
I look forward to any informed advice...
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ciscoubr
Location: Charlotte, NC
Gender: Male
| | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 1 on 11/30/2005 4:41 AM >
| | | | I'm new at this, but the raft idea sounds like a bad idea... I want to have full control of where I am going...I'm not so sure that I would have that using a raft...
Instead, I'd get myself a pair of chest-high waders (with boots attached)... i've got a set of neopreme ones I purchased at a sporting goods store for around $100.
I don't know much about the respirator thing... I'll leave that up to someone else.. Cisco.
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Dowcet
Location: Middletown, ct
| | | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 2 on 11/30/2005 4:47 AM >
| | | | Posted by ciscoubr
Instead, I'd get myself a pair of chest-high waders (with boots attached)... i've got a set of neopreme ones I purchased at a sporting goods store for around $100.
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I was wearing waders (under my clothes to be less suspicious); that would have been NASTY and COLD otherwise! I just have cheap vinyl ones though. Interesting idea though, thanks.
Unfortunately, oxygen is more important then footwear, so I'll see what folks have to say about that 
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Factor VIII
  
Location: tu5t1n
Gender: Male
The Legacy
| | | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 3 on 11/30/2005 6:08 AM >
| | | | That tunnel doesnt sound like a good idea. I'm pretty sure the rotten egg smell is Hydrogen Sulfide Gas (H2S). When breathing it for periods of time, you can loose your sense of smell, and become unconscious. As for the low oxygen part, I would be concerned. At high amounts H2S can significantly displace oxygen. Anywhere there is decaying organic matter (and even places where it isnt evident) there is a high probability of hydrogen sulfide. And water up to your waist? Thats pretty high I'd say. Maybe some of the more experienced users can give you a second opinion.
use the boost to get through |
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HillbillyHorus
Location: Charlottesville Virginia
Gender: Male
Im in ur government, killin ur d00dz
| | | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 4 on 11/30/2005 10:29 PM >
| | | | Ditto Factor VII. Sounds like H2S. You could try to go in, but as soon as you start feeling dizzy get out. Also, when you're in a tunnel with hydrogen sulphide your nose starts to burn.
You can't fall off a mountain. |
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tick
Location: Abingdon, VA
Gender: Male
| | |  | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 5 on 11/30/2005 11:45 PM >
|  | | | Eh, since the bad air is only released when you walk in the muck, I'd go for the raft approach.
[last edit 3/27/2006 6:52 PM by Raticus - edited 1 times]
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Mellon_Collie
Location: Utah'ish
Gender: Male
Chingblot.
| |  | | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 6 on 12/1/2005 3:03 AM >
| | | | Just be aware of your vital signs. Make make sure your heart is not beating ridiculously fast because of lack of oxygen and stuff. Pay attention to what your body is telling you. If you do go, be sure to take pictures, it sounds like an awesome place.
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Ian
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: The County of Kings
Gender: Male
"Great architecture has only two natural enemies: water, and stupid men."
| | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 7 on 12/4/2005 11:56 PM >
| | | | When in doubt about whether or not you are in contact with H2S, don't ponder - run. It can smell like rotten eggs; so can other sulferous materials. Sometimes you don't smell it at all - it can really knock your sense of smell out of whack that quickly. Usually, it will burn. Again, this can be over with quickly. H2S is extremely nasty stuff; there is no respirator that I know of that is rated higher than Escape against it - meaning that the respirator might give you additional time, but it won't stop the stuff from knocking you unconscious & killing you. The only way to be safe is with a Tyvek suit & an oxygen tank. I tend to think those would be a bit bulky for a drain tho
When it comes to H2S, just play it safe & you'll be OK. Smelling rotten eggs means run. Fast as you can. Live to drain another day! ;)
Happy tunnels.
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nel58
Location: montreal (st-henri) Qc
Gender: Female
yep..something's under..let's check ! (RIP Joséphine ,april 1998-october 2010 )
| | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 8 on 1/30/2006 1:30 AM >
| | | | About the rotten eggs smell...There are some small cities in some specific regions where the water smells like sulfur.
The water there is good for consumption...it's just that it stinks and stains the sink..
I know it sounds awful..
But I guess there's no chances to take and Dowcet,I would go with the raft,at least for a while..should be a lot of fun !
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Dowcet
Location: Middletown, ct
| | | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 9 on 1/30/2006 3:07 AM >
| | | | Posted by nel58
I would go with the raft, at least for a while..should be a lot of fun !
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Yeah, that's my plan, as soon as I convince someone to do it with me ;)
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nel58
Location: montreal (st-henri) Qc
Gender: Female
yep..something's under..let's check ! (RIP Joséphine ,april 1998-october 2010 )
| | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 10 on 1/30/2006 3:54 AM >
| | | | Too bad you live so far....I would gladly accompany you !(Well it's not that far but I can't say : Ok let's go after supper !)
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Vinny
Location: city watershed wilderness area of Frederick, MD
Gender: Male
| | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 11 on 2/1/2006 12:47 PM >
| | | | Responding to the original poster: If you wish to use a floating boat-type device to explore a pipe with at least 6 inches of water depth, the type which will generally cause the least disturbance to the water and sink to the least depth is a narrow inflatable raft or a sit-on-top inflatable kayak, or even, if the pipe is wide enough, an inflatable runabout. These float devices tend to have a very small profile below the surface of the water, sometimes as little as 4 to 5 inches. A wooden raft would be far heavier, and would have a deeper profile beneath the water surface.
Now, on to discussing gases... I have some experience here because my scientific consulting work sometimes demands that I enter sewage drain systems, pipes, lift stations and pump rooms, and of course, I have also spent much time in storm drain systems across the country.
First of all, in any open-ended storm drain system, there is very little chance of encountering seriously low oxygen levels. Rather, the only significant danger -- and this is normally very small in storm drain systems unless they are loaded with protein-containing material such as animal waste -- is that of encountering harmful levels of hydrogen sulfide gas. However, hydrogen sulfide gas is much more a matter of concern in sewer systems than in storm drain systems.
I personally assume, from years of recorded history as well as experience, that over 99.99% of storm drains are safe in terms of significant H2S hazards.
I personally assume, based on easily available accident reports and records, that most sanitary sewer pipes/drains and enclosed spaces such as lift station rooms and pump rooms may have dangerous levels of H2S, and thus, unless I have direct experience (or direct feedback from personnel) which indicates otherwise, I simply assume that harmful levels of H2S may be present.
If you are exploring anywhere which might have significant levels of hydrogen sulfide (G2S) gas, in fact, anything over a few ppm, you need to exercise care as H2S can be deadly in concentrations much over 10 ppm. At low concentrations, H2S smell slike rotten eggs (i.e., that characteristic pungent "sulfur" odor), but the problem is that at concentrations much above 25 ppm, you stop smelling it because the gas has disabled your sense of smell (at least for that type of smell). And, higher levels of H2S can quicly lead to unconsciousness and death. Thus, smell alone is not a good indicator of presence of dangerous levels of H2S. What I do in practice is this:
For those systems, pipes or rooms where it is reasonable to assume that harmful levels of H2S may be present, I feel that if I must enter, there is NO substitute for at least wearing a personal H2S monitor, aka a H2S detector, and also be willing and able to exit quickly the second the alarm sounds. There are several models of such hydrogen sulfide personal detectors available in the $200 range, and each has a useful runtime life of 2 years once turned on for the first time. Each has a loud audible alarm which sounds if a preset "danger" level of H2S has been detected; some models employ a strobe light or vibrator (much as found in a pager) alarm indicator as well. Here are links to the three best and cheapest -- in my opinions -- which I have found, along with a rough indication of price range; each linked page also shows pictures of the devices:
$219 - http://www.profess...281/qx/default.htm
$219 - http://www.profess...281/qx/default.htm
$239 - http://www.gempler...121877&src=21TL002
I have never seen any high-quality and reliable H2S monitors sold for less than this.
BTW, as folks have already mentioned in other threads about H2S, if there will be no way of exiting safely and IMMEDIATELY if the alarm sounds, then you will need a good H2S-rated respirator (aka "gas mask") at the least, and preferably a SCBA outfit as your best option. H2S-rated respirators are rated to provide escape time only, if harmful levels of H2S are detected by your peronsal H2S monitor -- respirators are NEVER rated as acceptable for continued presence in high-H2S atmospheres, and rather, only SCBA devices are rated for such settings. An excellent and CHEAP respirator which is fully rated for H2S gas escape situations, as well as for chlorine gas and some other nasty gases, is the MSA Multi-Purpose Half Mask Respirator model 817663, which sells for only $30 new; replacement filter cartridges are only $13 new. One source for such respirators and replacement cartridges which I like may be found at:
http://www.shop.co...r-nover?sourceid=3
There are also photos of the mask on the page.
Such new commercial/industrial respirators are GROSSLY preferable to using an unknown military-surplus or industrial-surplus respirator purchased from a surplus shop.
I hope this helps!
[last edit 2/1/2006 2:27 PM by Vinny - edited 2 times]
with care,
--Vinny
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Dowcet
Location: Middletown, ct
| | | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 12 on 2/4/2006 2:20 AM >
| | | | Posted by Vinny
First of all, in any open-ended storm drain system, there is very little chance of encountering seriously low oxygen levels.
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Based on the above, I feel like I'm just going to raft on in sometime soon. I'm not going to spend $200 on a monitor just because I don't really expect to be exploring any other locations where I would use one.
This is such a weird case because I don't think its a storm drain or a sewer. I feel like these flooded tunnels probably no longer serve any purpose at all... The water always seems to be absolutely stagnant even though the tunnels open into a canalway with a decent flow. I'm sure they were built back when were many, very large water-powered textile mills in the immediate area. The entrances are completely open, but I can't figure out anywhere that most of them could open to on the other end. The tunnels are easily 12 feet across and the roof reaches about 12 feet above the water.
Thanks for sharing so much expertise
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Glass
Location: Chicago
as one does
| | | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 13 on 2/4/2006 2:39 AM >
| | | | Sounds like a big cool tunnel; take it slow and watch your vitals. The gas will be a lot better if you're rafting and don't stir things up too much... I think SCUBA gear is a funny idea, not a serious one. Haha- sorry, Vinny.
Post some pics here when you're done! I'm looking forward.
mng
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tick
Location: Abingdon, VA
Gender: Male
| | | | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 14 on 2/4/2006 2:57 AM >
| | | | Posted by Dowcet
This is such a weird case because I don't think its a storm drain or a sewer. I feel like these flooded tunnels probably no longer serve any purpose at all... The water always seems to be absolutely stagnant even though the tunnels open into a canalway with a decent flow. I'm sure they were built back when were many, very large water-powered textile mills in the immediate area. The entrances are completely open, but I can't figure out anywhere that most of them could open to on the other end. The tunnels are easily 12 feet across and the roof reaches about 12 feet above the water.
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Sounds cool, I'd love to see pictures.
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Dowcet
Location: Middletown, ct
| | | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 15 on 2/4/2006 3:11 AM >
| | | | Posted by tick
Sounds cool, I'd love to see pictures.
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It will be hard to photograph since its completely dark and I won't be able to keep a tripod steady in the muck or on my boat very easily But here are two of the entrances, and then a shot of the inside of one. The inside shot is not very helpful, but you can sort of see the dark stone material the place is mostly lined with.
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nel58
Location: montreal (st-henri) Qc
Gender: Female
yep..something's under..let's check ! (RIP Joséphine ,april 1998-october 2010 )
| | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 16 on 2/4/2006 4:18 AM >
| | | | Dowcet !
This looks absolutely inviting !..Can't wait to hear (and hopefully see) from it soon !!!
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Howie_Sydney
| | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 17 on 2/4/2006 9:02 AM >
| | | | I got one of these.
http://www.indsci.com/prod_pmg_m40.asp
2nd hand, 1/3 the price of new and had it calibrated about $89 USD.
Also looking at some self rescue gear since Im going it alone for the time being. Personally I find it Peace of mind and keeps the loved ones sort of happy
www.bunkerboyz.org |
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blackhawk
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Mission Control
UER newbie
| | | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 18 on 3/27/2006 4:59 PM >
| | | | If you suspect the presence of hydrogen sulfide leave immediately. It is a proven killer. The effects can be delayed, and in relatively small concentrations can cause death. One breath at higher concentration can cause immediate collapse and death (higher is 100 PPM or greater). It is flammable, and an insidious poison. Not for amateurs. It kill pros.
Description
Hydrogen sulfide is a colorless, flammable, highly toxic gas. It is shipped as a liquefied, compressed gas. It has a characteristic rotten-egg odor that is detectable at concentrations as low as 0.5 ppb.
Routes of Exposure
Inhalation
Inhalation is the major route of hydrogen sulfide exposure. The gas is rapidly absorbed by the lungs. The odor threshold (0.5 ppb) is much lower than the OSHA ceiling (20 ppm). However, although its strong odor is readily identified, olfactory fatigue occurs at high concentrations and at continuous low concentrations. For this reason, odor is not a reliable indicator of hydrogen sulfide's presence and may not provide adequate warning of hazardous concentrations. Hydrogen sulfide is slightly heavier than air and may accumulate in enclosed, poorly ventilated, and low-lying areas.
Children exposed to the same levels of hydrogen sulfide as adults may receive larger doses because they have greater lung surface area:body weight ratios and increased minute volumes:weight ratios. In addition, they may be exposed to higher levels than adults in the same location because of their short stature and the higher levels of hydrogen sulfide found nearer to the ground. Children may be more vulnerable to corrosive agents than adults because of the relatively smaller diameter of their airways.
Skin/Eye Contact
Prolonged exposure to hydrogen sulfide, even at relatively low levels, may result in painful dermatitis and burning eyes. Direct contact with the liquefied gas can cause frostbite. Absorption through intact skin is minimal.
Ingestion
Because hydrogen sulfide is a gas at room temperature, ingestion is unlikely to occur.
Sources/Uses
Hydrogen sulfide is produced naturally by decaying organic matter and is released from sewage sludge, liquid manure, sulfur hot springs, and natural gas. It is a by-product of many industrial processes including petroleum refining, tanning, mining, wood- pulp processing, rayon manufacturing, sugar-beet processing, and hot-asphalt paving. Hydrogen sulfide is used to produce elemental sulfur, sulfuric acid, and heavy water for nuclear reactors.
Standards and Guidelines
OSHA ceiling = 20 ppm
OSHA maximum peak = 50 ppm (10 minutes, once, no other exposure)
NIOSH IDLH (immediately dangerous to life or health) = 100 ppm
AIHA ERPC-2 (emergency response planning guideline) (maximum airborne concentration below which it is believed that nearly all individuals could be exposed for up to 1 hour without experiencing or developing irreversible or other serious health effects or symptoms which could impair an individual's ability to take protective action) = 30 ppm.
Physical Properties
Description: Colorless gas with odor of rotten eggs
Warning properties: Not dependable; characteristic rotten-egg odor detectable at about 0.5 ppb, but olfactory nerve fatigue occurs in 2 to 15 minutes at concentrations over 100 ppm
Molecular weight: 34.1 daltons
Boiling point (760 mm Hg): -77ºF (-60.3ºC)
Vapor pressure: >760 mm Hg at 68ºF (20ºC)
Gas density: 1.2 (air = 1)
Water solubility: Slightly water soluble (0.4% at 68ºF [20ºC])
Flammability: Highly flammable and explosive between 4% and 45% (concentration in air); may travel to a source of ignition and flash back. Burns to produce a toxic gas, sulfur dioxide.
Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
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junkyard
Location: LaCrosse, WI
Gender: Male
Strategic Beer Command where the metal hits the meat.
| | | Re: Air Quality Question
<Reply # 19 on 3/27/2006 10:51 PM >
| | | | That drain looks old school. Do what you gotta do. I've been in enough drains like that and didn't know that Hydrogen Sulphide was used in the production of heavy water, maybe that's why I'm still here.
I drink gasoline for breakfeast and beer for dinner!
Any problem can be licked with a case of beer and a few sticks of dynamite.
Strategic Beer Command ruling the desert since 1995 http://www.strategic-beer-command.com |
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