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Steed
        
location:
Edmonton/Seoul
Gender: Male
Your Friendly Neighbourhood Race Traitor
 |  |  | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 20 on 12/2/2010 11:30 PM >
|  | | | Posted by kowalski
The only personal attack I've seen in this thread was the one you directed at me.
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Well then reread what you wrote, and cut the victim act.
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Intrinsic
location:
Collingwood
Gender: Male
| | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 21 on 12/2/2010 11:35 PM >
| | | | Here are my thoughts on the article, FWIW:
"Explorers are not criminals" - Not exactly true but if you were trying to portray the UR experience to a group of otherwise clueless digital photographers, that would be one way to do so without tarnishing the reputation of explorers. It paints a pretty picture for the 'entry level' reader.
In actual fact while trespass may not be criminal in parts of the world, there are explorers on here who have no issue with breaking a window or lock to gain entry. To deny it would be to pretend we also bring along brooms and mops and clean up abandoned places as we leave.
You went on to cover safety, making friends, legal consequences and overall the article is a good beginner level introduction. Once one becomes more accustomed to exploring they: become disgruntled like Kowalski, can further identify risks without being shown them, appreciate the ethics in leaving things for the next explorer instead of putting them on your fireplace mantle, find entry points they may not have known about, learn more about the legal system, etc.
I would say the article isn't anything to be flamed for, as I think it is an entry level article and nothing more. The more hardcore explorers may whine and pout but we can't all be super seekrit ninjas climbing cranes.
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kowalski
| | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 22 on 12/2/2010 11:53 PM >
| | | | Posted by Steed
Well then reread what you wrote, and cut the victim act.
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There is no personal attack in what I wrote.
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Steed
location:
Edmonton/Seoul
Gender: Male
Your Friendly Neighbourhood Race Traitor
| | | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 23 on 12/3/2010 12:05 AM >
| | | | Posted by kowalski
There is no personal attack in what I wrote.
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Well, let's skip the condescending first paragraph where you imply that any picture taken anywhere in a city of anything is urban exploration, and onto the condescending second paragraph where you tell me I shouldn't call what I do urban exploration, right onto the condescending third paragraph where you call me a lawbreaker who is "selfish, disrespectful, and short-sighted."
Posted by kowalski
Why? That's what it is. And why are you so worried about being mistaken for a sightseer? What is it about your thing that you would feel slighted if people thought you were sightseeing? Why should your hobby be distinguished from that?
If that's the case, and what you're about is breaking laws and finding action, I think you should choose a different label than 'urban exploration'. Because the difference between the label and the little insular subset of activities you want to reduce things to is about equivalent to taking American Football and calling it 'American Conversation'.
And I think you need to look carefully at the definition of forbidden, and decide whether that's really the thing you're going to hang your whole hobby on. Not just because there's no evidence for entry having been forbidden to lots of places (storm drains in many jurisdictions, for instance; abandoned structures that aren't houses on properties that aren't fenced/posted/whatever; etc.), but because of what it says about what you're doing. According to you, the point of your hobby is to break laws and ignore the interests (legitimate or otherwise) of property owners, their neighbours, communities, and the state. That sounds like a pretty selfish, disrespectful, and short-sighted thing to be doing, and it sounds like various authorities should be going out of their way to make an example of you.
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If you're trying to get banned, this is not the most efficient way to do it.
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kowalski
| | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 24 on 12/3/2010 12:37 AM >
| | | | Posted by Steed
Well, let's skip the condescending first paragraph where you imply that any picture taken anywhere in a city of anything is urban exploration |
I didn't say anything about photographs.
| onto the condescending second paragraph where you tell me I shouldn't call what I do urban exploration |
You're going to have to explain how this is a personal attack. I'm suggesting that if you insist on limiting the boundaries of something you're calling 'urban exploration' to 'exploring forbidden places' -- which is exactly what you did -- you're using an overly broad label and should just call it 'forbidden place exploration' or 'recreational trespassing'. I didn't realize that reading comprehension was this difficult.
Moreover, given that you were taking issue with Neil's definition in the first place, this whole "I shouldn't call what I do x" wounded thing is cute, but not terribly convincing. You were gung ho to tell Neil your opinion of his description of what he and you do, but you're uncomfortable with me having anything to say on the subject.
| right onto the condescending third paragraph where you call me a lawbreaker who is "selfish, disrespectful, and short-sighted." |
I didn't call you any of these things.
What I did say is that, there are consequences of meaning that you have to grapple with if you choose to make the defining characteristic of your activity 'entering into places where you are forbidden to be', rather than having an activity that sometimes requires you to enter into forbidden places. This may seem like semantics, but I would argue that there are significant differences between these two definitions, especially from the perspective of outside observers(*), which is exactly the audience for the definition that you were initially criticizing.
I'm not going to be held responsible for whether or not you can figure out how to parse that paragraph to understand that you are not the hypothetical action that I was criticizing. I never said that you are selfish. I said that the activity that you appear to be defining in your response to Neil appears to be a selfish and disrespectful one, and that I'm not sure you've adequately thought through the consequences of making your hobby explicitly and exclusively about transgression.
(*) and indeed of the other people who have an interest in the existence and disposition of a place, structure or piece of infrastructure, who 'urban explorers' too often forget about entirely.
[last edit 12/3/2010 12:40 AM by kowalski - edited 1 times]
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kowalski
| | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 25 on 12/3/2010 1:39 AM >
| | | | Posted by Steed
If you're trying to get banned, this is not the most efficient way to do it.
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Also, I think it's a shame that, as a moderator, you feel that it is appropriate to threaten someone with banning because you didn't like their reasonable criticism of your own criticism, in the context of an honest debate. If you can't stand the heat etc. etc.
I can't fathom why you think that you should be able to call Neil's definition of his hobby into question, but that I shouldn't be able to do the same for yours. The funny thing is, I actually like a lot of the stories you've told about the places you've been. I'm not sure I see all of them fitting into this new dogma about 'forbiddenness', but they are almost always interesting.
But for instance, why on earth wouldn't the work that goes into this blog: http://seatheater.blogspot.com/ be classified as urban exploration? It sure looks like urban exploration to me, and it seems to me an incredibly silly, and yes, shortsighted, thing to define 'urban exploration' in such a way that it only applies to that guy's practice when he happens to visit abandoned (let alone fenced off / guarded / forbidden) cinemas.
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team haymaker
location:
Burlington, Ontario
Gender: Male
| | | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 26 on 12/3/2010 1:49 AM >
| | | | why do you mods allow this guy on the forums any more?
all he does is turn perfectly good threads into a freaking argument.
Go to VWvortex if you want to argue and feel almighty
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ZenCanadian
location:
High Park, Toronto
Gender: Male
| | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 27 on 12/3/2010 1:57 AM >
| | | | I've said it before and I'll say it again, it isn't the message but how you are trying to get it across that is pissing people off on the forums.
Zen and the art of infiltration...
http://www.flikr.com/photos/zenslens
Zen is an uber explorer, a demi god of craning and purveyor of the finer things in life. |
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kowalski
| | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 28 on 12/3/2010 2:14 AM >
| | | | Posted by team haymaker
all he does is turn perfectly good threads into a freaking argument.
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Ah, I guess it was a perfectly good thread when people were telling Neil that he made "some pretty dumb statements."
If people aren't willing to defend the positions they're taking and the ideas they're expressing, they certainly shouldn't be communicating in text on the internet.
[last edit 12/3/2010 2:21 AM by kowalski - edited 1 times]
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Neil T
location:
Toronto
Gender: Male
| | | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 29 on 12/3/2010 2:27 AM >
| | | | I am going to allow all of this. We're all entitled to our own opinions and the way we want others to perceive of (even if it is somewhat anonymous).
Like I said, I don't take offense to anything directed against me. I'm not a writer and barely an urban explorer, so this article likely reflects that. I've gotten a lot of great exposure as a result of the article, so mission accomplished.
I am Bidong blog. Traveler. Urban Explorer. Gentle Lover. http://www.iambidong.com |
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kowalski
| | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 30 on 12/3/2010 2:41 AM >
| | | | Posted by ZenCanadian
I've said it before and I'll say it again, it isn't the message but how you are trying to get it across that is pissing people off on the forums.
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The thread starts out "I Will Probably Get Flamed for This", and to some extent he did. It is interesting how criticizing Neil T and the article that he wrote is completely okay, but criticizing the statements that some of his critics have made brings down the UER horde to stamp out the heresy.
I can hardly be accused of disrupting some kind of campfire sing-along thread here, and the thin skin of any poster who balks and cries about personal attacks when asked to explain themselves speaks volumes about how much they've actually thought about what they're doing or saying. There is nothing condescending about saying "these are the consequences of drawing your tight little definition in this way. I'm certainly not comfortable with that definition, and I'm not sure that you should be either."
Anyone who thinks that they are in a position to offer wisdom or criticism to Neil T, or to anyone else on this forum, should feel comfortable with the fact that they are also in a position to receive in turn the wisdom and/or criticism of others. If that's a bannable ethic of forum use (on a forum where people say the most horrible sexist, racist, misanthropic and vapid things every day, no less), then go ahead, send me away.
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Brind
location:
Kitchener, ON
Gender: Male
| | | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 31 on 12/3/2010 2:56 AM >
| | | | Posted by kowalski
...constructive inquiries...
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When was the last time you actually said something constructive? All you do is rant and rave like some belligerent old man on his front porch. No one takes you seriously and it's really about time you moved on.
Instagram
"Adventure is worthwhile in itself." -Amelia Earhart |
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AnAppleSnail
location:
Charlotte, NC
Gender: Male
ALL the flashlights!
| |  | | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 32 on 12/3/2010 2:59 AM >
| | | | Trespass laws exist mainly for three reasons:
Privacy
Liability
Preventing other crimes
When I trespass, I'm mostly just violating privacy because I don't go around kicking in doors and suing owners when I get a splinter. I do indeed commit crimes, but not ones that are particularly damaging. The privacies I invade aren't exactly peoples' houses.
Achievement Unlocked
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s.l.o.t.h
location:
Hamilton, ON
Gender: Male
http://www.flick r.com/photos/slo thtree/
| | | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 33 on 12/3/2010 3:14 AM >
| | | | Okay, trying to avoid my natural urge to blurt something like "in b4 lock" and then leave. I am going to provide some constructive criticism instead.
Get the fuck over yourselves.
Now, I know that first time I said it, it probably just offended you. So I'll say it again. Get the FUCK over yourselves.
All you two have been doing is clashing egos and being annoying drama whores. I'm not trying to get banned for mocking a moderator, or trying to pick on some recent user who's been shitting himself in rage at the drop of a hat. I'm just saying get the fuck over yourselves.
This is a hobby, it means different things to different people. The only reason any of this has gotten as out of hand as it has is because most of you here are taking things entirely too seriously, or as personal attacks.
Stop taking over relatively innocent threads that would be flamed of their own volition and stupid content, and get over yourselves. The entire internet does not revolve around you
If you're having a stressed out day remember the sloth: They don't do shit and they haven't gone extinct; I'm sure you can afford to take a nap... |
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Brind
location:
Kitchener, ON
Gender: Male
| | | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 34 on 12/3/2010 3:15 AM >
| | | | Posted by s.l.o.t.h
Okay, trying to avoid my natural urge to blurt something like "in b4 lock" and then leave. I am going to provide some constructive criticism instead.
Get the fuck over yourselves.
Now, I know that first time I said it, it probably just offended you. So I'll say it again. Get the FUCK over yourselves.
All you two have been doing is clashing egos and being annoying drama whores. I'm not trying to get banned for mocking a moderator, or trying to pick on some recent user who's been shitting himself in rage at the drop of a hat. I'm just saying get the fuck over yourselves.
This is a hobby, it means different things to different people. The only reason any of this has gotten as out of hand as it has is because most of you here are taking things entirely too seriously, or as personal attacks.
Stop taking over relatively innocent threads that would be flamed of their own volition and stupid content, and get over yourselves. The entire internet does not revolve around you
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Said so much more eloquently than I could.
Instagram
"Adventure is worthwhile in itself." -Amelia Earhart |
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Axle
location:
Milton, ON
Gender: Male
Sieg oder Tod
| | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 35 on 12/3/2010 3:21 AM >
| | | | Posted by s.l.o.t.h
This is a hobby, it means different things to different people. The only reason any of this has gotten as out of hand as it has is because most of you here are taking things entirely too seriously, or as personal attacks.
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Yes
Posted by s.l.o.t.h
Stop taking over relatively innocent threads that would be flamed of their own volition and stupid content, and get over yourselves. The entire internet does not revolve around you
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And yes.
Now, let's go out and explore something...just for the sake of it!
Also...Neil, great article, although I may disagree with certain points, a good article all the same.
[last edit 12/3/2010 3:22 AM by Axle - edited 1 times]
Celer at Audax
Para la Victoria Siempre Alemanes! |
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swizzler
location:
Ontario
Gender: Male
| | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 36 on 12/3/2010 3:22 AM >
| | | | Posted by s.l.o.t.h
The entire internet does not revolve around you
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What the fuck is the internet?
Canon EOS 5DMKII | EF 24-105 f/4L | EF 17-40 f/4L | EF 50mm f/1.8 II | Yashica Electro 35 GS |
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metawaffle
King of Puns
location:
Brisbane!
Gender: Male
Purveyor of Fine Lampshades
| | | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 37 on 12/3/2010 3:25 AM >
| | | | That was well put.
http://www.longexposure.net |
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rob.i.am
Gender: Male
Carpe noctum
| | | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 38 on 12/3/2010 3:26 AM >
| | | | Posted by swizzler
What the fuck is the internet?
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It's something that revolves around me.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rob666/ |
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Axle
location:
Milton, ON
Gender: Male
Sieg oder Tod
| | Re: I Will Probably Get Flamed for This
<Reply # 39 on 12/3/2010 3:30 AM >
| | | | I thought it was a series of tubes?
Celer at Audax
Para la Victoria Siempre Alemanes! |
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